What's your preferred DLSS config?

[AusWolf]

bang on.

Not sure I follow this logic, the creator creates games with standard resolution options, generally from 720p ish or even lower, all the way to 4k and beyond, sometimes (hopefully even, with ultrawide options and VR too) so which one of those is intended by the creator? Is playing 720p native more the way the creator imagined than 1440p? what about 1440 upscaled to 4k? or is 4k native what's intended and anything lower isn't? I'm interested to hear from you how the end users arbitrary resolution choice relates to the creators vision.

Bonus question, if the Developer lists upscaling for all the system specs and target resolutions and fps as we've seen lately, is playing with upscaling the way it's imaged by the creator?

It's the best possible graphics quality at the best available screen resolution. The developer lists other options too, because not everyone can game at such settings.

If rendering at native panel resolution is to be touted as the best, then why does super sampling exist?

That's a completely different topic altogether. Supersampling is a higher resolution image scaled down to fit your monitor. Upscaling is a lower resolution image scaled up to look acceptable on your monitor. It should be plain obvious to see why and how one gives much better quality than the other.

Also, not many games use supersampling these days, that's why I'm not using that as my example.

 

[wolf]

It's the best possible graphics quality at the best available screen resolution. The developer lists other options too, because not everyone can game at such settings.

Is it? I guess so. I don't really see the connect between the creative vision for the game and using upscaling necessarily breaking that, given the vast breadth of ways a game can be played. IMO the vision would be to have it as accessible to as many people and their setups as possible, from steam deck to foolishly expensive setup and everything in between.

That's a completely different topic altogether.

All I want to prove with the statement is that rendering at a panels native resolution, isn't the best IQ that panel can display. of course I realise how upscaling works, that's beside the point, it is possible to have higher IQ that 1:1 rendering, and people need to get used to that.

With that accepted and out of the way, real discussions can be had about various techniques and their IQ without the claimed 'mic drop' statement of it's impossible to be better than native resolution rendering, it's simply false.

 

[ToxicTaZ]

In the past few months, DLSS has evolved into a suite of technologies that extend beyond mere "upscaling"

NVIDIA users: we're curious... if a game fully supports all the available options, which ones would you choose?

DLSS Upscaling, to achieve higher FPS, but with a lower render resolution? or maybe you prefer native rendering, but with increased FPS from Frame Generation? What about DLAA?

(We intentionally didn't include Ray Reconstruction in this poll)

DLSS 3.5 is suppior to FSR3 End of story.

With RTX 4000 Super Series with Super DLSS 3.5 Driver Nvidia has no competition.

 

[AusWolf]

Is it? I guess so. I don't really see the connect between the creative vision for the game and using upscaling necessarily breaking that, given the vast breadth of ways a game can be played. IMO the vision would be to have it as accessible to as many people and their setups as possible, from steam deck to foolishly expensive setup and everything in between.

Lowering image quality to make the game more accessible has always been a good thing. That's the beauty of PC gaming, I'm not denying that. What I'm denying is that a DLSS/FSR/XeSS enabled image can look better than native rendering.

Drooling over +30% FPS with a lower quality image using a 4090 is like drooling over 720p game tests on a 14900K - it probably has some value predicting future game trends with current hardware, but it's completely useless to judge the present situation by. That is, I can see upscaling being useful for future games / lower-end hardware / ultra high resolutions, but that's it.

With that said, I admit that the DLSS/FSR review of that new Avatar game left some positive impressions in me. I'll be sure to try it out when the game reduces to a price that I'm willing to pay for it (on a storefront that I'm willing to buy it on).

All I want to prove with the statement is that rendering at a panels native resolution, isn't the best IQ that panel can display. of course I realise how upscaling works, that's beside the point, it is possible to have higher IQ that 1:1 rendering, and people need to get used to that.

With that accepted and out of the way, real discussions can be had about various techniques and their IQ without the claimed 'mic drop' statement of it's impossible to be better than native resolution rendering, it's simply false.

Sure, supersampling is better than full native with no AA, but that has never been the topic of the argument here.

DLSS 3.5 is suppior to FSR3 End of story.

With RTX 4000 Super Series with Super DLSS 3.5 Driver Nvidia has no competition.

Nvidia is better at lowering your image quality, therefore all Nvidia buyers are demigods, and the rest of the GPUs are meant for peasants. Very insightful, thanks for coming.

 

[wolf]

What I'm denying is that a DLSS/FSR/XeSS enabled image can look better than native rendering.

Oh but it can, denying it doesn't change the reality and consensus of the situation. Very much a case of seeing is believing, and I do believe you haven't seen it yet.

Sure, supersampling is better than full native with no AA, but that has never been the topic of the argument here.

Perhaps not yours specifically, but plenty of people on this forum and across the net assert this, so it's important to correct misinformation. Important to me at least.

 

[AusWolf]

Oh but it can, denying it doesn't change the reality and consensus of the situation. Very much a case of seeing is believing, and I do believe you haven't seen it yet.

Haven't seen it = don't believe it. It's a pretty straightforward and empirically sound argument, don't you think?

Perhaps not yours specifically, but plenty of people on this forum and across the net assert this, so it's important to correct misinformation. Important to me at least.

AA (any kind of AA, including SS) is a group of techniques designed to give you a sharper image at varying performance costs. FSR/DLSS/XeSS are technologies designed to give you a blurrier image with varying performance benefits. They are complete polar opposites. One is the topic of the conversation and the basis of my point here. The other is not. Whatever is important to you, me, or anyone else is irrelevant here.

 

[wolf]

Haven't seen it = don't believe it. It's a pretty straightforward and empirically sound argument, don't you think?

I've never seen the Southern lights, or jupiter up close, or the earth's magnetic field, but I don't doubt their existence. So no I don't think it's a sound argument in the face of the available information.

AA (any kind of AA, including SS) is a group of techniques designed to give you a sharper image at varying performance costs. FSR/DLSS/XeSS are technologies designed to give you a blurrier image with varying performance benefits. They are complete polar opposites. One is the topic of the conversation and the basis of my point here.

Now I can see why you'd think that, but a lot more data goes into those images than just a lower res input, there's historical frames and camera jitter to eek out subpixel detail. Just like supersampling has more data to inform its image than 1:1 native does, so does DLSS.

So on the topic of the conversation, I think it's all relevant and fairly accepted at this point - by the people that actually use RTX cards currently on 1440p+ displays at least.

 

[AusWolf]

I've never seen the Southern lights, or jupiter up close, or the earth's magnetic field, but I don't doubt their existence. So no I don't think it's a sound argument in the face of the available information.

There's plenty of pictures of the northern lights or Jupiter on the internet, and you can read about how a compass works, or even buy one, so that's a bad comparison. There are plenty of images of DLSS as well, but I don't see them as better than native. I just simply don't.

Edit: I'm not denying the existence of something. I'm making a quality judgement, which is an entirely different thing.

So on the topic of the conversation, I think it's all relevant and fairly accepted at this point - by the people that actually use RTX cards currently on 1440p+ displays at least.

"The people" don't convince me. My own eyes do.

 

[StormLightningSL]

It is common knowledge that everyone does not have the same quality of visual clarity as some others may have. There is a very high number of people in the world whose eyes are not perfect. Obviously, such persons are already seeing things a little blurred with less than perfect clarity. For these persons, seeing less jitter and less screen-tearing is more important than the very tiny blurring that happens in AA or super-sampling and even in up-scaling. Saying that one person prefers this or that, when someone else may prefer something else is neither here nor there. It is a matter of personal preference. The fact is, that up-scaling technology coupled with AA, and especially DLAA+Frame-gen, while not being perfect, are acceptable for many gamers. Just leave it at that and let people enjoy what works for them. With due respect, making statements on the lines of "I didn't see it so I don't agree" or whatever is pretty pompous and ultimately a waste of screen space.

Having said the above, I personally use DLAA+Frame-gen on a 4070Ti at 2560x1440p at 120Hz refresh. Most current games support this very well, to my satisfaction. While I've not been a fan of hyper-action FPS games, I can understand the appeal of ultra-high-refresh native resolution gaming with the latest and hottest hardware if a player has great reflexes and extremely clear vision. For almost everyone else, up-scaling/frame-gen with decent AA is the future, and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If one can afford the latest and best, go for it. For those that can't, let them enjoy what they can afford without being pulled down.

 

[wolf]

There's plenty of pictures of the northern lights or Jupiter on the internet, and you can read about how a compass works, or even buy one, so that's a bad comparison. There are plenty of images of DLSS as well, but I don't see them as better than native. I just simply don't.

I don't agree with your choice to block your ears to the evidence, really. Plenty of evidence is there to support it, at a bare minimum it's possible, you even agree that evidence exists as per my examples, but because you personally haven't/can't/don't see it, or refuse to acknowledge it, I'm not sure... you continually jump in to decree that despite this evidence, and owner testamonials, you deny that is it even possible, let alone happening. You simply don't, with no acceptable rationale provided beyond 'this is my opinion'.

Especially in another DLSS thread, asking Nvidia RTX users to vote and weigh in.

It's not surprising, but it is disappointing. Yet again I will say, that because of the above, I find that opinion on it essentially worthless in context to the poll and question asked.

 

[AusWolf]

It is common knowledge that everyone does not have the same quality of visual clarity as some others may have. There is a very high number of people in the world whose eyes are not perfect. Obviously, such persons are already seeing things a little blurred with less than perfect clarity. For these persons, seeing less jitter and less screen-tearing is more important than the very tiny blurring that happens in AA or super-sampling and even in up-scaling. Saying that one person prefers this or that, when someone else may prefer something else is neither here nor there. It is a matter of personal preference. The fact is, that up-scaling technology coupled with AA, and especially DLAA+Frame-gen, while not being perfect, are acceptable for many gamers. Just leave it at that and let people enjoy what works for them. With due respect, making statements on the lines of "I didn't see it so I don't agree" or whatever is pretty pompous and ultimately a waste of screen space.

Having said the above, I personally use DLAA+Frame-gen on a 4070Ti at 2560x1440p at 120Hz refresh. Most current games support this very well, to my satisfaction. While I've not been a fan of hyper-action FPS games, I can understand the appeal of ultra-high-refresh native resolution gaming with the latest and hottest hardware if a player has great reflexes and extremely clear vision. For almost everyone else, up-scaling/frame-gen with decent AA is the future, and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If one can afford the latest and best, go for it. For those that can't, let them enjoy what they can afford without being pulled down.

Exactly.

Everyone has a different concept of what high refresh rate gaming is. For most people with a 144 Hz monitor, 144 FPS is a must (for what reason, I don't understand). Having used my 144 Hz monitor for about two months now, I can say that I'm enjoying it very much, not because it's 144 Hz, but because it has a wide VRR range with LFC that makes basically any frame rate appear butter smooth.

Similarly, if you like DLSS, FSR, or upscaling in general, all the power to you. Just don't try to convince me that it's objectively better than native or something-AA for everyone, because it's a waste of your time.

 

[wolf]

With due respect, making statements on the lines of "I didn't see it so I don't agree" or whatever is pretty pompous and ultimately a waste of screen space.

Agreed.

 

[AusWolf]

I don't agree with your choice to block your ears to the evidence, really. Plenty of evidence is there to support it, at a bare minimum it's possible, you even agree that evidence exists as per my examples, but because you personally haven't/can't/don't see it, or refuse to acknowledge it, I'm not sure... you continually jump in to decree that despite this evidence, and owner testamonials, you deny that is it even possible, let alone happening. You simply don't, with no acceptable rationale provided beyond 'this is my opinion'.

Especially in another DLSS thread, asking Nvidia RTX users to vote and weigh in.

It's not surprising, but it is disappointing. Yet again I will say, that because of the above, I find that opinion on it essentially worthless in context to the poll and question asked.

I read every single DLSS/FSR comparison review here on TPU, and I take my time to examine the screenshots, compare them at various settings. I also try FSR in whatever game comes in my way (the last one was God of War). What more do you want me to do?

 

[wolf]

I read every single DLSS/FSR comparison review here on TPU, and I take my time to examine the screenshots. I also try FSR in whatever game comes in my way (the last one was God of War). What more do you want me to do?

I've said this many times dude. Actually play games, live, on your machine, on your monitor, seeing it rendered live with your own eyes, using DLSS. This very thread calls for DLSS users, you aren't one, but you're still here denying what users and tech press are agreed on.

Pixel peeping stills uploaded to a site are helpful, but ultimately just won't be anything like playing games and using it.

 

[AusWolf]

I've said this many times dude. Actually play games, live, on your machine, on your monitor, seeing it rendered live with your own eyes, using DLSS. This very thread calls for DLSS users, you aren't one, but you're still here denying what users and tech press are agreed on.

Pixel peeping stills uploaded to a site are helpful, but ultimately just won't be anything like playing games and using it.

How about we don't tell each other how (and on what hardware) to play our games? We're arguing about tastes and opinions here which is the most pointless thing anyone can do on a forum.

I've told you that my opinion on DLSS is backed up by my own experience. If you don't believe it, or you don't think it's enough until I've spent a million hours in every DLSS-enabled game, that's your problem.

Besides that, I honestly don't give two **** what the press, or other people think.

 

[wolf]

you don't think it's enough

In context to this thread..

NVIDIA users: we're curious... if a game fully supports all the available options, which ones would you choose?

It isn't. But I'll leave it there, until next time this conversation is invariably rehashed in another thread asking RTX users about DLSS. I sincerely hope you keep an open mind on the subject, I just can't fathom being this stubborn in the face of consensus.

 

[AusWolf]

In context to this thread..

It isn't. But I'll leave it there, until next time this conversation is invariably rehashed in another thread asking RTX users about DLSS. I sincerely hope you keep an open mind on the subject, I just can't fathom being this stubborn in the face of consensus.

Nowhere other than the first post in this thread does it state that this is a question only for Nvidia users. I didn't even know until you pointed it out.

Reading every review here on TPU, checking Youtube (mostly Hardware Unboxed) for new material and trying out FSR in new games is open mind enough, I believe. As for buying a new Nvidia card at their current prices just to try new DLSS versions, sorry dude, it's not gonna happen. I've got better things to spend my money on. Judging from screenshots, I don't see much difference between DLSS and FSR in current versions, anyway. If you think this all disqualifies me from the right to have an opinion on upscaling tech, it says more about you than it does about me, I believe.

 

[wolf]

it says more about you than it does about me

Funnily enough, I feel the same. Reminds me, I might go looking for an AMD Driver thread to post my experience in, despite not running an AMD card or using their software for years.

 

[AusWolf]

Funnily enough, I feel the same. Reminds me, I might go looking for an AMD Driver thread to post my experience in, despite not running an AMD card or using their software for years.

Right, so Nvidia users who actively game with DLSS on a daily basis are free to have an (positive) opinion on upscaling, but all the rest of us using FSR, or no upscaling at all despite having tried it in the past, and doing our best to keep up-to-date with the latest developments, should shut the f* up. FSR is obviously not an upscaling technology, so why would it form the basis for any opinion on upscaling, right?

Based on our past conversations, I thought you were more mature than to make such remarks.

 

[wolf]

Right, so Nvidia users who actively game with DLSS on a daily basis are free to have an (positive) opinion on upscaling, but all the rest of us using FSR, or no upscaling at all despite having tried it in the past, and doing our best to keep up-to-date with the latest developments, should shut the f* up.

I'm trying to find where I said that and can't.... I also thought you were more mature than to Strawman. Read my assertions again, paying particular attention to my choice of words, and what was asked of the thread in post #1. I don't think there's anything to gain for either of us continuing this exchange, like usual I said what I came to say.

 

[AusWolf]

I'm trying to find where I said that and can't.... I also thought you were more mature than to Strawman. Read my assertions again, paying particular attention to my choice of words, and what was asked of the thread in post #1. I don't think there's anything to gain for either of us continuing this exchange, like usual I said what I came to say.

You're the one using some old AMD driver issues as your example, despite them having zero relevance to the given topic, and I'm strawmaning. Right...

You said it here (as well as some other times in the past):

I've said this many times dude. Actually play games, live, on your machine, on your monitor, seeing it rendered live with your own eyes, using DLSS. This very thread calls for DLSS users, you aren't one, but you're still here denying what users and tech press are agreed on.

Pixel peeping stills uploaded to a site are helpful, but ultimately just won't be anything like playing games and using it.

How am I going to play with DLSS enabled on my 7800 XT? Why does trying FSR and only reading/watching DLSS reviews in modern games disqualify me from having an opinion on upscaling in general?

 

[wolf]

You're the one using some old AMD driver issues as your example, despite them having zero relevance to the given topic, and I'm strawmaning. Right...

I didn't put words in your mouth at all, or assert it was what you said, I just said I might go do that, if you've drawn the similarity, I can see how.

How am I going to play with DLSS enabled on my 7800 XT? Why does trying FSR and only reading/watching DLSS reviews in modern games disqualify me from having an opinion on upscaling in general?

You own am RTX card no? You could test using that.

Yeah yeah upscaling is a gimmick, it sucks, you hate it and would only use it in a pinch, it always reduces quality, I get it. It's your opinion that it can not ever exceed native+TAA quality that's flat out incorrect. When I hear things that aren't true, I comment. I also happen to bring up why it is that makes it so that you haven't seen it, and how you might do so, and that denying that it is even possible, is also incorrect, factually.

 

[AusWolf]

I didn't put words in your mouth at all, or assert it was what you said, I just said I might go do that, if you've drawn the similarity, I can see how.

If there's no similarity, then why did you say it? You know what? Earth's diameter is 12742 km or 7926 miles. This has no similarity with the given topic, just trollin'.

You own am RTX card no? You could test using that.

Sure, I'll wipe my GPU drivers and swap GPUs every time a new game with DLSS comes out just to see it. It totally won't mess up my Windows installation for sure.

My other option is testing it in my HTPC on my 4K TV, but that's an entirely different use case. There, upscaling is a must because
1. there's no way the 2070 can play games at 4K native,
2. 4K + DLSS Q looks better than 1440p rendered on a 4K screen with no upscaling, for example, no one is denying that, and
3. I can barely tell any difference between 1080p and 4K videos on that TV, I'm sitting so far from it, so I'd be stupid not to enable some form of upscaling when gaming at 4K.

Yeah yeah upscaling is a gimmick, it sucks, you hate it and would only use it in a pinch, it always reduces quality, I get it. It's your opinion that it can not ever exceed native+TAA quality that's flat out incorrect. When I hear things that aren't true, I comment. I also happen to bring up why it is that makes it so that you haven't seen it, and how you might do so, and that denying that it is even possible, is also incorrect, factually.

So when you put words into my mouth, it's suddenly fine?

I never said upscaling was a gimmick. I said it's a helpful tool for people with less powerful GPUs, or for people playing at ultra high resolutions, as it is designed to give you a slightly blurrier than native res image with a significant performance bump. It's a performance thing, not a quality thing, which is cool.

 

[wolf]

then why did you say it?

I wanted to make a point.

Sure, I'll wipe my GPU drivers and swap GPUs every time a new game with DLSS comes out just to see it. It totally won't mess up my Windows installation for sure.

I can appreciate it's a lot of work, but it's my suggestion

So when you put words into my mouth, it's suddenly fine?

Well some of those I didn't put in there (see below), but you're right, to live by my own code I shouldn't have, and neither should you, so I apologize.

I never said upscaling was a gimmick.

Well, yeah you kind of have, perhaps not in this thread but a quick search of your username and the word gimmick has multiple hits in the first page where you're referring to upscaling as gimmicks, as well as the others I've seen in the past, I don't think you can sit here and claim you've never even remotely insinuated upscaling was a gimmick.

More Games Get NVIDIA DLSS Support

Each week, we're bringing you news of the latest DLSS and ray tracing integrations in games and apps. Last week at COMPUTEX 2023, we announced that Ash Echoes, Honor of Kings: World, and Legend of Ymir will all launch with DLSS 3, and Party Animals with DLSS 2. And we celebrated the Early Access...

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Announces FidelityFX Super Resolution 3 (FSR 3) Fluid Motion Rivaling DLSS 3, Broad Hardware Support

That's proof that it works better on Ada. It's not proof that it doesn't work on Turing and Ampere. If Nvidia could enable RT on cards that have zero dedicated RT hardware (GTX 1000 series), then this shouldn't be a problem, either. My guess is they are in a damn if they do damn if they don't...

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Announces FidelityFX Super Resolution 3 (FSR 3) Fluid Motion Rivaling DLSS 3, Broad Hardware Support

As far as I understand, Hypr-RX is not a thing, but rather a combination of things. So what is Reflex exactly? I'll have to look for some official documentation because I'm curious. That's not how it works. If I'm playing at 1080p, I will never ever in my whole life compare to a 720p image. My...

www.techpowerup.com

So what does the Ada release by Nvidia mean to you

That's the reality we live in though Nvidia’s $h!+ is worth more than AMD's $h!+. I don't care whose shit is worth what. I'm not gonna pay extra for features that I don't care about, features that make my 1080p image look like crap, features that are for streamers, features that are supposed to...

www.techpowerup.com

All in all though the 1.2.3 points are about the closest I will get you to acquiesce on the merits of upscaling.

Just remember, DLSS can look better than native. That's my opinion, and if your opinion is it can't, then my opinion is your opinion is wrong. Also empirical testing supports it.

 

[AusWolf]

I wanted to make a point.

Having no connection to the topic at hand, it didn't work - but let's forget it and move on.

I can appreciate it's a lot of work, but it's my suggestion

And I appreciate that.

I'll probably try it on my 4K TV at some point despite I almost never game on it (that HTPC has a 1050 Ti in it, which is showing its age). Although, it'll be a totally different use case than my main rig.

Well, yeah you kind of have, perhaps not in this thread but a quick search of your username and the word gimmick has multiple hits in the first page where you're referring to upscaling as gimmicks, as well as the others I've seen in the past, I don't think you can sit here and claim you've never even remotely insinuated upscaling was a gimmick.

Kind of? Well, not really, unless you read my comments as plain words without context (which I don't think you should). Let's see what I really said:

More Games Get NVIDIA DLSS Support

Each week, we're bringing you news of the latest DLSS and ray tracing integrations in games and apps. Last week at COMPUTEX 2023, we announced that Ash Echoes, Honor of Kings: World, and Legend of Ymir will all launch with DLSS 3, and Party Animals with DLSS 2. And we celebrated the Early Access...

www.techpowerup.com

I suggest reading the second line of the post - as I also said here, upscaling is useful for slower graphics cards, but not really a selling point on the newest, most expensive ones, in my opinion.

AMD Announces FidelityFX Super Resolution 3 (FSR 3) Fluid Motion Rivaling DLSS 3, Broad Hardware Support

That's proof that it works better on Ada. It's not proof that it doesn't work on Turing and Ampere. If Nvidia could enable RT on cards that have zero dedicated RT hardware (GTX 1000 series), then this shouldn't be a problem, either. My guess is they are in a damn if they do damn if they don't...

www.techpowerup.com

I used the words "to me", as I was expressing my opinion, not some ultimate truth. Also, the topic there was DLSS 3 frame generation, not DLSS, or upscaling in general, so this point is moot.

AMD Announces FidelityFX Super Resolution 3 (FSR 3) Fluid Motion Rivaling DLSS 3, Broad Hardware Support

As far as I understand, Hypr-RX is not a thing, but rather a combination of things. So what is Reflex exactly? I'll have to look for some official documentation because I'm curious. That's not how it works. If I'm playing at 1080p, I will never ever in my whole life compare to a 720p image. My...

www.techpowerup.com

Again, the topic is frame gen, not upscaling. Moot.

So what does the Ada release by Nvidia mean to you

That's the reality we live in though Nvidia’s $h!+ is worth more than AMD's $h!+. I don't care whose shit is worth what. I'm not gonna pay extra for features that I don't care about, features that make my 1080p image look like crap, features that are for streamers, features that are supposed to...

www.techpowerup.com

Did you see me directly calling DLSS a gimmick in this post? I did not. It is my personal stance of what I would and wouldn't be willing to spend extra money on.

Just remember, DLSS can look better than native. That's my opinion, and if your opinion is it can't, then my opinion is your opinion is wrong. Also empirical testing supports it.

I'm only calling such "empirical" tests highly subjective in nature, that's all. Therefore, your opinion is fine, and so is mine.

Empirical tests can show that strawberries taste sweet because they contain sugar. They can't show that you like them.