Why Elden Ring doesn't impress me. Innovation in combat physics is needed in the gaming industry.

[AsRock]

Maybe Kingdom come Deliverance 2 will have it when it's finally released, 1st one had pretty good sword\shield combat.

 

[Onasi]

I unironically want someone to take a stab at what Die by the Sword did back in… *checks*… 1998. Time sure flies. Anyway, the idea of separate simultaneous controls for moving and sword combat where you can freely swing in any direction via mouse movement was very unique and cool. It wasn’t fully realized back then due to various technical issues, but I do think this has potential. Also included the “arcade” control scheme with pre-baked moveset for those who found it easier.

 

[cvaldes]

There's a massive difference between realistic and entertaining in videogames.

Real combat with a zweihänder sword should be slow and ponderous with the wielder becoming quickly prone to fatigue. And anyone in metal armor should also plod stiffly; it's not silk lingerie. Knives should break more often, armor pieces should fall off when the leather straps used to attach them fail (from combat, poor quality, etc.).

Gunfighters should lose their hearing temporarily after exchanging volleys. Hearing damage is cumulative and permanent too. There should be a lot more smoke from firearms which should reduce visibility both for the shooter as well as the target.

And space battles should be soundless except for damage to your spacecraft (mostly in the form of hull breach alarms or infrastructure alerts like power failures).

But would this make for good gameplay? Absolutely not. Gamers would freak out within minutes into the tutorial.

There's a balance between realism and entertainment. And videogame publishers are in the business of entertainment. It's not a military simulator.

 

[Onasi]

@cvaldes
You mean actual zweihanders that are more of a field anti-pike weapon here or just two-handers in general? Because depending on the specifics they can be very far from slow and ponderous. Long-swords are two handed (yes, unlike what DnD makes them out to be) and are generally rather quick and agile weapons.

 

[Space Lynx]

There's a massive difference between realistic and entertaining in videogames.

Real combat with a zweihänder sword should be slow and ponderous with the wielder becoming quickly prone to fatigue. And anyone in metal armor should also plod stiffly; it's not silk lingerie. Knives should break more often, armor pieces should fall off when the leather straps used to attach them fail (from combat, poor quality, etc.).

Gunfighters should lose their hearing temporarily after exchanging volleys. Hearing damage is cumulative and permanent too. There should be a lot more smoke from firearms which should reduce visibility both for the shooter as well as the target.

But would this make for good gameplay? Absolutely not. Gamers would freak out within minutes into the tutorial.

There's a balance between realism and entertainment. And videogame publishers are in the business of entertainment. It's not a military simulator.

Well you could do both, you could have enhanced physics, but still have arcade style gameplay for the fun factor. Or you could do all realism like Ex Anima is trying to do (its a very difficult game, but interesting) or just find the balance, but I see no reason why the more intricate details couldn't be include in more arcade style gameplay, it would still be more fun combat.

 

[Onasi]

I think it’s important to note here that it’s essentially impossible to make a functional game while having actually realistic melee fighting. Okay, let’s simplify and limit it to swords, because once you start expanding the arsenal it gets progressively more difficult exponentially. So, sword fighting. It’s fast. Incredibly so. Unlike the usual nonsensical portrayal of “clumsy sharp sticks” that are heavy and telegraphed the actual fencing in… any period really is almost lightning fast. To the point where it wouldn’t be possible to actually make it mechanically sound. The reaction time for the player will be nonexistent. Closest we have are stuff like aforementioned Hellish Quart or Ex Anima, but they are still massively janky and are fundamentally limited. KCD tried doing something vaguely like historical fencing and they had to slow it down by A LOT and make a system that, in the end, was still clunky. Games like From Softs oeuvre don’t even try and go for classic gamey over exaggerated stuff. Which is fine, since, as @cvaldes mentioned, it’s about fun and playability. Realism wouldn’t work. You literally CANNOT so something like this in a game and it being actually playable in a satisfying controlled manner:

 

[evernessince]

To me it sounds like you want to be playing something like Blade and sorcery in VR.

 

[cvaldes]

Well you could do both, you could have enhanced physics, but still have arcade style gameplay for the fun factor. Or you could do all realism like Ex Anima is trying to do (its a very difficult game, but interesting) or just find the balance, but I see no reason why the more intricate details couldn't be include in more arcade style gameplay, it would still be more fun combat.

Hell, most game devs in 2024 can't even get the basic title to function smoothly at launch. And now you are trying to get devs to write for two vastly different styles of gameplay?

One of the reasons why Fortnite is so popular is because its combat physics prioritizes fun over realism. Hell, even CoD or more "serious" games like Tarkov still favor entertainment over plodding, tedious realism.

Hell, where are the foot blisters? Mosquitoes? Food poisoning? Gangrene? Allergies? Ankle contusions from running around in a pasture?

Ahahahahahahaha!!!

 

[Ruru]

Actually game physics haven't improved much in late years. What happened with that enthusiasm when PhysX was on its highest hype?

 

[cvaldes]

Actually game physics haven't improved much in late years. What happened with that enthusiasm when PhysX was on its highest hype?

Game publishers realized that accurate physics doesn't automatically equate to good gaming.

What do you think gamers prefer? Stellar Thigh Gap Blade or real world PhysX?

Ahahahahahahaha!!!!

 

[Ruru]

Game publishers realized that accurate physics doesn't automatically equate to good gaming.

What do you think gamers prefer? Stellar Thigh Gap Blade or real world PhysX?

Ahahahahahahaha!!!!

Stellar Blade's girls with realistic physics.... damn!

To be honest, these days I just watch the boob physics when playing Dead or Alive.

 

[Deleted member 242843]

Remember Bushido Blade (1 & 2)? I thought those game were so badass. Them and Battle Arena Toshinden, and Blood Roar were the first 3D fighting games i played a lot of.

 

[chrcoluk]

Modern combat physics seems to be to die within a few hits, and dodging is godly avoiding all damage altogether. Too much emphasis on perfect timed moves as well.

 

[Space Lynx]

To me it sounds like you want to be playing something like Blade and sorcery in VR.

yes, a lot of my thoughts have veered to VR games like this. as it just allows for direct 1 to 1 experiences. I think once we get better and better VR and optimum tech's vr videos have def showed me that is happening and is somewhat already here, it's just a matter of finding a dedicated space now because VR does need some room

i still think physics combat mechanics would be a major win in say a Elden Ring 2 type game, again see previous posts 23 and others for my ideas on that

 

[chrcoluk]

There's a massive difference between realistic and entertaining in videogames.

Real combat with a zweihänder sword should be slow and ponderous with the wielder becoming quickly prone to fatigue. And anyone in metal armor should also plod stiffly; it's not silk lingerie. Knives should break more often, armor pieces should fall off when the leather straps used to attach them fail (from combat, poor quality, etc.).

Gunfighters should lose their hearing temporarily after exchanging volleys. Hearing damage is cumulative and permanent too. There should be a lot more smoke from firearms which should reduce visibility both for the shooter as well as the target.

And space battles should be soundless except for damage to your spacecraft (mostly in the form of hull breach alarms or infrastructure alerts like power failures).

But would this make for good gameplay? Absolutely not. Gamers would freak out within minutes into the tutorial.

There's a balance between realism and entertainment. And videogame publishers are in the business of entertainment. It's not a military simulator.

Oblivion kind of took account of these things, armour got damaged whenever hit so gradually became less effective, you had to keep repairing it, heavier armour slowed you down vs light armour and again vs unarmoured, weapons would also get damaged, you actually had a fatigue bar, so every time you jumped, dodged, swung your weapon it used fatigue, I think same with running.

I dont know if enemies/NPCs had these same limitations.

Lightning returns, blocking, dodging both consume ATB, which I suppose is akin to fatigue.

Tales of Zesteria, dodging consumes stamina, stamina also gradually goes down the longer since you last took a rest.

I prefer these type of mechanics vs doing unlimited dodging with no hindrance, as well as making everything dodgable with no damage, I think thats horrible gameplay. Another thing I find horrible gameplay is how in most of these games, bosses tend to always be very agile, even some big troll with a massive club as a weapon, has super quick attack animation the same dexterity as if they holding a pencil. The type of gameplay to promote fast instant reactions.

 

[Onasi]

@chrcoluk
Oblivion wasn’t really a trailblazer with that, Morrowind was the same, so was Daggerfall. Skyrim was the one that nuked the durability system and de-emphasized stamina.

 

[chrcoluk]

@chrcoluk
Oblivion wasn’t really a trailblazer with that, Morrowind was the same, so was Daggerfall. Skyrim was the one that nuked the durability system and de-emphasized stamina.

Never said it was, I havent played either of the two games you mention, but have Oblivion which is why I named Oblivion.

As always Morrowmind was purchased, put on a to do list, but like many other games never got round to it, didnt even finish Oblivion due to the sheer size of the game.

From what you described Skyrim sounds like a regression.

 

[Onasi]

@chrcoluk
Skyrim WAS a regression in pretty much every possible system compared to predecessors. Only thing it really added of value was the “two hands” system for dual-wielding and spells.

 

[Vayra86]

@chrcoluk
Skyrim WAS a regression in pretty much every possible system compared to predecessors. Only thing it really added of value was the “two hands” system for dual-wielding and spells.

What struck me most about Skyrim was the GUI changes. What a godawful mess. Its worse in every way compared to oblivion, which had its issues too, because half the time you are looking at the wrong tabs in it. Skyrim managed to show even less useful info, and the talent trees are just... why?

 

[Vario]

I like Mordhau a lot on PC, though it isn't very realistic.

My non expert opinion:
One of the dumber things I've seen in games is the idea that a two handed sword is slower than a one handed sword. Doesn't make a lot of sense. If you have two hands on it, its probably going to be faster. Relatedly, most two handed weapons are represented as being extremely heavy in games. While they are heavier than a one handed weapon, they don't scale to being an order of magnitude heavier.

 

[Space Lynx]

I like Mordhau a lot on PC, though it isn't very realistic.


One of the dumber things I've seen in games is the idea that a two handed sword is slower than a one handed sword. Doesn't make a lot of sense. If you have two hands on it, its going to be faster. Relatedly, most two handed weapons are represented as being extremely heavy in games. While they are heavier than a one handed weapon, they don't scale to being an order of magnitude heavier.

also, gravity when used correctly will make it faster on certain swing types, just because well gravity and weight go in your favor (little details like this could make games more immersive imo)

 

[bubbleawsome]

I imagine a lot of the limitation comes from the number of buttons on a standard console controller. Hard to move your strike in 3D space with the sticks while maintaining control of your camera and character, and if flipping your shield is just a single button press then it’s not all that different from a block mechanic.

 

[Space Lynx]

Outside of Ex Anima I mentioned in my original post, does anyone have any game recommendations that does combat physics well?

 

[Kapone33]

Sleeping Dogs has some great Combat mechanics. For shooting realism those Red Dragon was pretty realistic.

Stellar Blade's girls with realistic physics.... damn!

To be honest, these days I just watch the boob physics when playing Dead or Alive.

That was the thing about that Game. It was probably the deepest in terms of moves and timing was tantamount to success but anytime you fought a female character it was pure distraction.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

So....what I'm hearing is that you want Gorn with slightly more realistic physics. That's a VR game that did arena combat...but it wasn't exactly designed to produce real fighting. The problem with that is that to then make the physics and tactics work you'll need to retool things...at which point the combat becomes less fun. Dark Souls, Elden Ring, and the like favor combat that is fun above realistic...because nobody really wants to get shredded while using a heavy sword...or have the entire screen swim about wildly because a single swipe not only cuts, but imparts enough energy to force you around.

Regarding what you want...I may be missing things. The ability to turn the shield and have it functionally trap the weapon of your opponent is very much entirely a game of timing. It's the same as using a trident/bident to disarm or control a weapon...and it's one of the reasons why swords have guards on them (otherwise each slash down the edge of a blade would slice the fingers/hand of the opponent and effectively disarm them).


I for one am happy with the results of gameified combat. If you've ever wielded a pick or maddox you'd understand that fatigue basically means you have a few swings in combat before it's impossible to do anything more than use its momentum to swing in wide arcs. That's with gardening tools, not a steel/iron sword and the like. It may sound silly, but if you really think you want combat realism go back to the PS2 era. There were quite a few games where everything had durability, status effects like bleeding or poison were a death sentence, and getting staggered on long wind-up attacks meant that while they existed in-game they were not functional. i-frames isn't exactly realism, but real combat with a stamina resource sucks.