Will PCI-e SSD card be bootable on all PCI-e motherboards?

[Ferrum Master]

Windows XP, you had to press F6 to high-load a SATA/RAID driver before setup begins, otherwise it won't detect the card.

From a floppy drive .

 

[agent_x007]

I have not yet found a low cost bootable PCI-E card for NVME drives. I am hoping I will find a reasonable price bootable PCI-E/NVME adapter suitable for a non UEFI system. Otherwise I'll be using the DUET loader that agent_x007 mentioned, on systems that can boot from USB.

Just to point out : It doesn't have to support USB booting
Just buy Industrial class Compact Flash card (256MB+ capacity, standard CF cards ones may not boot from BIOS), a CF to IDE adapter, and you can boot pretty much from anything
Of course you can also create a partition on second hard drive with DUET or Clover and use that as boot option under standard BIOS.

^No USB boot support, MBR NVMe M.2 booting.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

It says SATA/600 interface and has SATA/600 performance. If that is an NVMe drive (I have my doubts), the controller you're using is converting it to a SATA link for backwards compatibility.

 

[agent_x007]

Oh, indeed...
It's not NVMe drive, but it's a AHCI version of SM951 M.2 (next best thing?).
Still, my bad !
(didn't check the screenshot through enough)

So... this will work with NVMe as well (I should have that screenshot somewhere...), since Windows 8 does have NVMe drivers, and besides that nothing is different.

 

[debs3759]

No, especially if NVMe. Only X99/Z97 and newer on Intel support NVMe. AMD, not sure when support started.

I am not looking at whether the motherboard supports NVME, I am trying to find out if NVME can be supported by an add in card, and if that would be bootable. I know that some plug in cards have their own BIOS.

If it just a SATA host controller, maybe. You'll have to check if the board has boot support. Some cards that claim to support booting may not boot via UEFI. Only have to worry about UEFI on much newer boards.

I may end up buying a SATA controller and a couple SATA SSDs for each system, but that is not as cheap as if there is a way to boot NVME from an add-in card.

To be perfectly clear, LGA775 does not support UEFI nor NVMe. Both technologies came later.

I know that. That is why I have asked if there is a way around it. Before this thread, I didn't know I needed a UEFI BIOS in order to have or add native NVME support. There is an option, posted above, by using a bootloader that adds EFI, with the appropriate drivers.

An older SATA SSD will have broad compatibility with these older systems. Especially Windows 7 got updates to TRIM rather than defrag SSDs so it won't destroy them. You won't have to jump through any hoops to get it working.

I am looking at the best drive speeds my budget will allow. Not a huge budget, but with current prices, I will not be limited to the speed of the motherboard

 

[kapone32]

How do you install drivers to a boot drive before installing it?

If you have Windows already installed you download the drivers and save them and I was talking specifically about the Revodrive..

I have not yet found a low cost bootable PCI-E card for NVME drives. I am hoping I will find a reasonable price bootable PCI-E/NVME adapter suitable for a non UEFI system. Otherwise I'll be using the DUET loader that agent_x007 mentioned, on systems that can boot from USB.



Thanks. I have only ever set up an OS on a drive the BIOS can see, so it is good to know that is not the only option.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I am not looking at whether the motherboard supports NVME, I am trying to find out if NVME can be supported by an add in card, and if that would be bootable. I know that some plug in cards have their own BIOS.

NVMe literally means connect SSD to PCIe lanes which means the PCIe bus (CPU/chipset feature) has to support it. Your question seems to be: "can a PCIe card create an NVMe support in an environment that doesn't support NVMe." The answer is "no." SATA would be your only option.

If you're asking if an PCIe card with M.2 slots on it can support SATA M.2, the answer is maybe. There's two kinds of cards:
1) Host Adapter: This will not work because it's relying on the M.2 wiring to get SATA support from the motherboard.
2) Host Controller: This will work because there's a SATA chip on the card that sits on the PCIe lanes converting it to SATA.
Pretty sure SATA/NVMe is one or the other. If it supports NVMe then SATA support is given by the motherboard. If it is exclusively SATA and has dedicated BIOS, then it's likely a SATA host controller.

I am looking at the best drive speeds my budget will allow. Not a huge budget, but with current prices, I will not be limited to the speed of the motherboard

The best you're going to be able to do on SATA is 500 MB/s up/down. I'd just find the cheapest SATA SSD that does that from a reputable brand in the density you want and call it a day. I don't really see why you'd need to buy a SATA controller. SATA SSDs are usually plug and play.

 

[agent_x007]

@debs3759

SATA AHCI is limited to 600MB/s
PCI-e AHCI is limited by PCI-e speed drive and controller capabilities,
PCI-e NVMe is the same as AHCI PCI-e in this regard.

 

[jaggerwild]

The performance will be the same. It’s limited by the interface. The only way to bypass SATA speeds is with 1) RAID or 2) NVMe. NVMe is only possible on X79 with modification as it requires UEFI. It can be a pain to get it working as well.

As he said, you can't make the hand off go fast. your limited by what the board uses, or how it is interfaced.

 

[debs3759]

@debs3759
View attachment 127993
SATA AHCI is limited to 600MB/s
PCI-e AHCI is limited by PCI-e speed drive and controller capabilities,
PCI-e NVMe is the same as AHCI PCI-e in this regard.

Thanks. That's what I needed to know. I know PCI-E 2 would not use NVMe to it's full potential, so PCI-E AHCI sounds like what I need.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

But why? You have to install drivers to make that card work. If you just buy a SATA SSD and connect it to a SATA port, it usually just works. What's the significance of buying a PCIe card with M.2 slots and installing SATA M.2 SSDs in it?

 

[debs3759]

But why? You have to install drivers to make that card work. If you just buy a SATA SSD and connect it to a SATA port, it usually just works. What's the significance of buying a PCIe card with M.2 slots and installing SATA M.2 SSDs in it?

You like fast cars. I like to get what I can out of my computers. If I can boot at PCI-E 2 speeds instead of SATA 2 speeds, on a system that will be frequently rebooted for benchmarking purposes, it matters to me. I don't care if some people don't understand. If I was looking for a SATA SSD, I would just install a SATA SSD, but I want to try something new while the prices are right.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

In terms of boot performance, there's virtually no difference between 500 MB/s and 2000 MB/s because operating system will only load a few GBs at most.

The best option is an M.2 NVMe drive for computers that support it and a SATA SSD for computers that don't. High performance SATA SSDs are cheap these days. NVMe M.2 is more pricy but still reasonable.

Another thing to consider: all PCIe slots are not equal. There's situations where having 3 PCIe x16 slots will result in one of them being disabled if the other two are already populated. Motherboards have to be researched for PCIe lane availability and NVMe support. Just because it fits doesn't necessarily mean it will work. SATA, by comparison, has very few caveats.

A dedicated test bench? Sure, do the research, make sure NVMe will work, put it in there and leave it. Using across multiple systems with wildly different hardware? SATA for the win.

 

[debs3759]

I think you misunderstand. I am not looking for one drive to use on multiple systems. I'm looking for the best option for multiple systems, each of which will be used to benchmark multiple CPUs on hwbot, and probable also GPUs on some of them. Each will have whatever is the best I can run on it, but the oldest PCI-E board is X38, so I specifically mentioned that. I found out elsewhere how to run M.2 (including NVMe) drives via PCI-e adapter on an older system with legacy BIOS. I also established that, unless NVMe is cheaper (which it is in some cases), an AHCI drive on PCI-E 2.0 would saturate the bus. AHCI drives are more expensive though, generally.

 

[agent_x007]

NVMe is best suited for what Optane does.
AHCI is "good enough", if NVMe is too pricy for you liking.
It's not all about saturating bandwidth - it's about latency and small file performance.
At least on NVMe side.

 

[Athlonite]

AHCI drive on PCI-E 2.0 would saturate the bus

If that were the case then every SATA 6Gbps SSD would also saturate the bus as all are now connected via PCIe but just simply doesn't happen even using an SATA M.2 drive on a PCIe adapter will not saturate the bus want proof well here you go

this test was performed on an Asus Crosshair V Formula using an Marvel controller based PCIe to SATA M.2 card @ x4 PCIe 2.0 using windows own AHCI driver
Windows spends the vast majority of its time reading/writing small files when doing anything so it will never saturate the PCIe 2.0 bus

 

[agent_x007]

this test was performed on an Asus Crosshair V Formula using an Marvel controller based PCIe to SATA M.2 card @ x4 PCIe 2.0 using windows own AHCI driver
Windows spends the vast majority of its time reading/writing small files when doing anything so it will never saturate the PCIe 2.0 bus

You simply use too too crappy M.2 drive to check this.
NVMe vs. AHCI : LINK.

 

[Maelwyse]

So, I'm gonna chime in here, since I have a different viewpoint.

I've got an Intel Optane PCI-E SSD.

UserBenchmark: Intel 900P Optane NVMe PCIe vs

I've been pretty happy with it. As far as I've been able to extrapolate, it's only Intel CPU compatible, and has some "hiccups" if you try to do some other stuff, but it's faster, at least in benchmarks, than any other I've found (and if you can correct that, by all means, please do! I'm looking to build an AMD rig, and would love to know if there's another option!) I'm almost certain that there are some compatibility issues, but it's fast.

 

[debs3759]

I decided I am buying a 500 GB Samsung 970 EVO Plus (well, I am bidding, if I get the right price) and a PCI-E adapter. I will also buy an AHCI (not SATA) M.2 drive, and will test various combinations before deciding what each system will have.

The Maximus VIII Hero I can add the NVMe boot dxe to the UEFI so that is easy enough. All the other systems without M.2 or UEFI, I will test different options with Clover, EFI bootloader, and the adapter.

 

[Athlonite]

"AHCI (not SATA) M.2" they're the same thing
SATA m.2 uses AHCI to talk to it

1: SATA is the Device type
2: AHCI is the control instructions
3: M.2 is the connector type

 

[debs3759]

"AHCI (not SATA) M.2" they're the same thing
SATA m.2 uses AHCI to talk to it

1: SATA is the Device type
2: AHCI is the control instructions
3: M.2 is the connector type

I am pretty sure during my research that I came across M.2 drives that use AHCI but are three times faster than the fastest SATA 3 SSDs. That is what I meant, I just didn't explain it well.

 

[aQi]

I been through where you are right now. All modern and old pci express / pci express nvme SSDs work with any system having a pci express slot even those having pci express 1.1 standards.
Problem you will face is that they will work as a storage device after you install their drivers that is to say before Windows 8.1.
8.1 and up already have drivers for detection of these drives.

So the question remains can either of these drives can be used as a boot drive ?
The answer is YES.

Until and unless you have those Plextor or Samsung 950 pro nvme drive which had native boot option rom to support legacy bios.
If you owed one you can always select from boot order option rom or similar to get them booted.

Bios mod:

Bios mod is only applicable with a UEFI bios where you edit you bios to support booting from nvme drives.

Legacy bios still cannot be modified to get those nvme drivers to boot BUT i used DUET-REFIND

Its a tiny software to get those nvme booted through a usb.
The bios is set to boot from usb. The usb starts it procedures and get windows installed on nvme and then booted. But you have to keep the usb plugged in to keep it booting to windows installed on nvme pci express ssd.

Note: Installing any older version of windows, you have to integrate the nvme ssd drivers into windows installation as to get it supported for installing onto nvme ssd.

 

[debs3759]

Bios mod is only applicable with a UEFI bios where you edit you bios to support booting from nvme drives.

I'm going to do that on my Maximus VIII Hero

Legacy bios still cannot be modified to get those nvme drivers to boot BUT i used DUET-REFIND

Its a tiny software to get those nvme booted through a usb.
The bios is set to boot from usb. The usb starts it procedures and get windows installed on nvme and then booted. But you have to keep the usb plugged in to keep it booting to windows installed on nvme pci express ssd.

I'm going to use either DUET or Clover. Probably clover, as I already have the right files.

Note: Installing any older version of windows, you have to integrate the nvme ssd drivers into windows installation as to get it supported for installing onto nvme ssd.

I will create a boot disc on SATA SSD for Windows 7 (necessary for most benchmarks on hwbot), with all updates but no drivers, and with NVMe drivers installed. I will clone that onto each of my test systems.

 

[aQi]

I'm going to do that on my Maximus VIII Hero



I'm going to use either DUET or Clover. Probably clover, as I already have the right files.



I will create a boot disc on SATA SSD for Windows 7 (necessary for most benchmarks on hwbot), with all updates but no drivers, and with NVMe drivers installed. I will clone that onto each of my test systems.

 

[eletronicamr44]

Olá meus amigos, boa noite. Tenho um gigabyte sata II e comprei uma placa adaptadora para melhorar o desempenho do SSD, mas não estou conseguindo fazer o sistema inicializar a partir dele. Em todas as tentativas de instalação possíveis, a que possivelmente deu melhor resultado foi com o próprio gerenciador de inicialização do Windows, onde notei a tentativa de ler dados no SSD usando um HD comum com o sistema apenas como bridge. Nesse caso, a inicialização falhou após 3 tentativas de leitura. Eu até vi a questão de manipular o código da BIOS para inicializar pelo PCI-EX mas não me aprofundou por causa da dificuldade de encontrar arquivos e etc. Como poderia proceder neste caso? algum software decente? Eu posso usar o Clover como uma ponte em um HD para um M2 adaptado para PCI-EX x4, geralmente sem dificuldade. Tente o mesmo procedimento, para a placa adaptadora sata, mas sem sucesso. Clover não consegue encontrar o SSD. Simples, estou tentando atingir a cabeça desde o sinal às 15h, tentando algo de várias maneiras e não consegui nada!!! Aguarda-se nestes comentários eventuais situações anteriores sobre um problema comum em amigos em aqui neste fórum que poderia ter solução comum pela situação anterior.