Wednesday, July 6th 2022

US Wants ASML to Stop Product Shipments to China

ASML is one of the critical semiconductors companies, as they provide tools for making actual silicon. Located in the Netherlands, they are famous for their DUV and EUV lithography tools, used to etch designs onto silicon wafers. According to the report from Bloomberg, the United States governing body is negotiating with the Dutch government to restrict the export of ASML's products to China. This came to affection following US Deputy Commerce Secretary Don Graves's visit to the Netherlands to discuss supply chain issues and meeting with ASML Chief Executive Officer Peter Wennink. While these suggested export restrictions could be beneficial to the strategic placement of US against China, it would hurt ASML's revenue as sales in China accounted for a 16% share of the company's revenue in 2021.

It is recorded that the Chinese spending spree on tools has been the greatest among every country, lasting for two years in a row. By banning ASML from exporting its lithography tools to China, the US could theoretically halt Chinese plans for achieving the government's intended semiconductor independence. The talks with the Dutch government and ASML are still a work in progress, so we are yet to see if the deal is finalized. Additionally, it is worth pointing out that the major US semiconductor manufacturing tool makers like Applied Materials and Lam Research are already banned from exporting to China.
Source: Bloomberg
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49 Comments on US Wants ASML to Stop Product Shipments to China

#1
the54thvoid
Intoxicated Moderator
A wee bit over-reachy, no matter what your perspective.
Posted on Reply
#2
nametrends
A few years ago they didn't allow China to use the International Space Station, and now they complain that China doesn't give them access to the space station. What a similar scene.
Posted on Reply
#3
Vayra86
the54thvoidA wee bit over-reachy, no matter what your perspective.
Its not happening, most likely.

Dutch gov already stated as much as 'we'll direct our own course wrt China, together with the EU'
ASML is saying as much as 'DUV is old crap, we don't care'
Posted on Reply
#4
the54thvoid
Intoxicated Moderator
Hard to avoid politics on this one but posts that are clearly antagonist ("x" country sucks" sort of crap) will be deleted.

If you can't be constructive, don't post.
Posted on Reply
#5
zlobby
the54thvoidA wee bit over-reachy, no matter what your perspective.
Sadly...

ASML are the de facto solo enablers for what we have today. Unless some 3-letter agencies don't do some shady stuff to ASML execs, ASML can give the finger to whomever they choose to, with almost zero consequences.
Posted on Reply
#6
Wirko
I think there's also a commercial-political-tech reason for the US to try that, beside political-tech reasons. ASML can barely produce enough DUV machines for TSMC+Samsung+the West, all of which are investing extreme amounts of money in new fabs.
Keep in mind that a Zen 3 CCD, for example, has four EUV layers but also tens of DUV layers on top of those, so for every EUV scanner that processes wafers, there need to be many DUV scanners in operation, some of them doing multiple patterning.
Posted on Reply
#7
Prima.Vera
I never understand, how come there is this monopoly of ASML and no other companies are there to challenge them? I mean, the US government instead of trying to bad them to sell in China, why are not they investing proper money in developing their own company to produce those. And also research.
Posted on Reply
#8
R-T-B
nametrendsA few years ago they didn't allow China to use the International Space Station, and now they complain that China doesn't give them access to the space station. What a similar scene.
Who on earth wants access to China's crappy station?

I don't mean this in a xenophobic way... that station is just old tech vs the ISS...
Prima.VeraI never understand, how come there is this monopoly of ASML and no other companies are there to challenge them? I mean, the US government instead of trying to bad them to sell in China, why are not they investing proper money in developing their own company to produce those. And also research.
Primarily, the setup cost us so huge no one wants to bother.
Posted on Reply
#9
jsfitz54
The translation tool used here is not doing its job well: "This came to affection following US Deputy"
Posted on Reply
#10
Richards
If china gets euv machine the whole world gets chip chips from china..
Posted on Reply
#11
the54thvoid
Intoxicated Moderator
Final warning. Keep it constructive, leave the nationalist baggage at home.
Posted on Reply
#12
ZoneDymo
Prima.VeraI never understand, how come there is this monopoly of ASML and no other companies are there to challenge them? I mean, the US government instead of trying to bad them to sell in China, why are not they investing proper money in developing their own company to produce those. And also research.
Because its just not that easy, that is what makes what Tesla has achieved so special, so many others think they can do the same but cannot.
There is so much involved.
Heck just look at Intel, freaking INTEL trying to get into the gpu space....and how much they are having trouble...
Posted on Reply
#13
Space Lynx
Astronaut
Humanity in general just makes me sad these days. This whole concept of the nation state and invisible lines drawn on a map are going to destroy humanity in the end. Capable of so much, yet so little... the ironic existence of our species. Self-aware conscious beings capable of creating paradise, and yet also ruin of the greatest scale...

Quite bizarre really when you think of it.
ZoneDymoHeck just look at Intel, freaking INTEL trying to get into the gpu space....and how much they are having trouble...
this really did surprise me as well... Intel engineers are considered the best in the world, so I thought sure they would save the competition in GPU market... was not expecting them to struggle so much...
Posted on Reply
#14
Shihab
If one were to go the cheap and easy route of assuming that this is an attempt to keep China hooked and maintain a leverage to deter another Putin-esque idiocy, I'd say ASML's profit would be hurt even more if anything were to go wrong in Taiwan or eastern Asia in general...
Not necessarily saying the US is entirely in the right or anything here...
Posted on Reply
#15
Dr_b_
China is copying, nay, stealing the tech and reverse engineering these machines, and will be developing its own, and then stop buying them altogether from ASML in the near future. There are already patent infringement disputes about this.
Posted on Reply
#16
zlobby
CallandorWoTHumanity in general just makes me sad these days. This whole concept of the nation state and invisible lines drawn on a map are going to destroy humanity in the end. Capable of so much, yet so little... the ironic existence of our species. Self-aware conscious beings capable of creating paradise, and yet also ruin of the greatest scale...

Quite bizarre really when you think of it.



this really did surprise me as well... Intel engineers are considered the best in the world, so I thought sure they would save the competition in GPU market... was not expecting them to struggle so much...
One of the most touted solutions to Fermi's paradox is that all sentient civilizations cannot evolve past the stage we are in.
Posted on Reply
#17
PapaTaipei
That's called embargo. Embargo is a form of war.
Posted on Reply
#18
KainXS
Dr_b_China is copying, nay, stealing the tech and reverse engineering these machines, and will be developing its own, and then stop buying them altogether from ASML in the near future. There are already patent infringement disputes about this.

China is not our friend
10000% true and I have seen it firsthand

I used to work for a company that created their own Novel MOCVD and Ion Beam Deposition tools and this happened to them. A customer of theirs sold one of their MOCVD tools to china illegally and the chinese company that bought it then reverse engineered the tool and then started distributing it internationally. Eventually the company I used to work for tried to sue said company for patent infringement because the tool was cloned basically but had to go to china in order to do so because its impossible to touch these companies outside of china and it didn't even make it to trial. Its a far bigger problem than most people realize.
Posted on Reply
#19
AdmiralThrawn
I am of the opinion that we need to move all yes 100% of our manufacturing out of China. Bring it back to countries like USA, Japan, and Germany. Why are we forking trillions of dollars to a country that wants to destroy us? Especially when companies like apple have child labor making iphones over there.
Posted on Reply
#20
DeathtoGnomes
KainXS10000% true and I have seen it firsthand

I used to work for a company that created their own Novel MOCVD and Ion Beam Deposition tools and this happened to them. A customer of theirs sold one of their MOCVD tools to china illegally and the chinese company that bought it then reverse engineered the tool and then started distributing it internationally. Eventually the company I used to work for tried to sue said company for patent infringement because the tool was cloned basically but had to go to china in order to do so because its impossible to touch these companies outside of china and it didn't even make it to trial. Its a far bigger problem than most people realize.
This is exactly why the China-US trade wars started, China steals IP to under cut the market so dependencies focus on it.

This being a political article, my opinion is that I can see this happening under Trump, so its kind of surprising to me that this happened under the current administration.
AdmiralThrawnI am of the opinion that we need to move all yes 100% of our manufacturing out of China. Bring it back to countries like USA, Japan, and Germany. Why are we forking trillions of dollars to a country that wants to destroy us? Especially when companies like apple have child labor making iphones over there.
I am not sure thats entirely the right move, I mean there has to be something of worth trading with China just to keep political talks happening, this kinda of move could anger China into desperate actions. I'd rather see tariffs apply/increase instead of trade sanctions.
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#21
maxfly
As has been said already, they will simply steal it anyhow. Let the Dutch company protect their ip as best they see fit.
Posted on Reply
#22
AdmiralThrawn
DeathtoGnomesThis is exactly why the China-US trade wars started, China steals IP to under cut the market so dependencies focus on it.

This being a political article, my opinion is that I can see this happening under Trump, so its kind of surprising to me that this happened under the current administration.


I am not sure thats entirely the right move, I mean there has to be something worth trading with China just to keep political talks happening, this kinda of move could anger China into desperate actions. I'd rather see tariffs apply/increase instead of trade sanctions.
If we take away their only means of making money they lose ability to control, attack, or run anything. The manufacturing/exporting industry is over 40% of their GDP. If we take that away their already weak military becomes weaker and countries like taiwan and japan can feel safer as well. I am by no mean an economist though, just my opinion.
Posted on Reply
#23
DeathtoGnomes
AdmiralThrawnIf we take away their only means of making money they lose ability to control, attack, or run anything. The manufacturing/exporting industry is over 40% of their GDP. If we take that away their already weak military becomes weaker and countries like taiwan and japan can feel safer as well. I am by no mean an economist though, just my opinion.
I get all that, that would be a full on embargo, not gonna happen in reality. That will hurt those countries needing to trade with China, like ASML here, its a source of income, 16% is nothing to take lightly, hence ASML's bird flying at the US.
Posted on Reply
#24
95Viper
Stay on the topic.
Stop your geopolitical opinion rants.
Remember, we have a broad member base... respect that.
We are about tech... not hate-mongering/hate.
Posted on Reply
#25
R0H1T
DeathtoGnomesThat will hurt those countries needing to trade with China, like ASML here, its a source of income
Well like the many from US itself? How many billions of revenues does Apple, Intel, AMD, QC, Micron, Broadcom (Avago?) & of course ARM gets from their businesses operating in China but more importantly through their exports from China? You'll find that if the West if willing to pay 1.5-2.5x for their iPhones or PC then (replacing) China wouldn't even be a problem, but that's also a pipe dream! Don't want China to be a player at your poker table ~ pay more or endorse socialism i.e. near zero margins for these companies, Capitalism 101 o_O
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