Can I ask for 1million only, its all I need.

A&P211Can I ask for 1million only, its all I need.

Sure but for that amount of money you'll have to bake some fresh chips every day, with elephant-and-donkey decorative patterns printed on them.

A&P211Can I ask for 1million only, its all I need.

Why just one, why not a hundred?

R0H1TWhy just one, why not a hundred?

Spoiler

He is being reasonable.

It is perfectly reasonable given these trillion dollar corporations probably don't have to pay a dime of this back.

Considering Intel and TSMC already got government handouts, don't see why Micron should be left out. /s

What governments should be doing is building their own state-owned semiconductor fabrication plants. Then instead of paying public money to private chipmakers to bribe the latter into deigning to build fabs, the government puts those funds into its own fabs, and the private chipmakers either invest their own funds to compete, or lose marketshare and profit to the state-owned company.

But of course the "free(dumb) market" crowd will claim the above is communism, because apparently rigidly sticking to an ideology that very obviously isn't working is preferable to doing what's objectively best for their state.

AssimilatorConsidering Intel and TSMC already got government handouts, don't see why Micron should be left out. /s

What governments should be doing is building their own state-owned semiconductor fabrication plants. Then instead of paying public money to private chipmakers to bribe the latter into deigning to build fabs, the government puts those funds into its own fabs, and the private chipmakers either invest their own funds to compete, or lose marketshare and profit to the state-owned company.

But of course the "free(dumb) market" crowd will claim the above is communism, because apparently rigidly sticking to an ideology that very obviously isn't working is preferable to doing what's objectively best for their state.

Since CHIPS act have earmarked 52.7 billion, lets say US government use that money to build a state of the art fab from the ground up, does it sounds like a realistic goal to you?

Imagine you are Intel, you ask TSMC: "Hey TSMC, let me buy your 5nm technology then build a fab and compete with you!", how do you imagine the price will look like? Maybe you imagine US government can do espionage stuff and just steal technology like China?

TBH, I am not entirely against the idea of having a state-owned fab, but building a state-owned fab from the ground up is an extremely inefficient way of spending money.
A much more reasonable way of getting capacity is buy an existing company in financial trouble or not doing particularly well, then you invest remaining money to compete and do whatever public sector goal you want to do. For example, perhaps consider to purchase something like GloFo, give it a massive capital injection, and start from there?

Company like GloFo isn't state of the art, but building a state owned fab from ground up won't get you state of the art process neither, you have to take it step by step, there are little to no short cut, even if you are US government.

And if you still want state of the art in short to medium term without mass IP theft? Well, you do what CHIPs act do, you throw some cash out with strings, and get state of the art fab setup in your country.

There's no debate that we need to get tech companies into "safe havens", but I think just throwing money at them is the wrong move. :oops: There would be other options, like tax cuts, free land, free energy, etc. In the long run this could even be more beneficial for these companies.

All the billions of subsidies would be better spent in expanding the "Green Energy" grid. Which would not only be beneficial for the tech companies, but also for other companies, the public & the planet.

AssimilatorWhat governments should be doing is building their own state-owned semiconductor fabrication plants.

There are other means for governments to hand out money but also get something in return (apart from promises). Shares, bonds, loans (and possibly loan guarantees and tax breaks, too).

VerpalFor example, perhaps consider to purchase something like GloFo, give it a massive capital injection, and start from there?

Or perhaps buy that Foxconn Wisconsin plant and turn it into something profitable? Would be a great exercise in government efficiency, haha.

AssimilatorConsidering Intel and TSMC already got government handouts, don't see why Micron should be left out. /s

What governments should be doing is building their own state-owned semiconductor fabrication plants. Then instead of paying public money to private chipmakers to bribe the latter into deigning to build fabs, the government puts those funds into its own fabs, and the private chipmakers either invest their own funds to compete, or lose marketshare and profit to the state-owned company.

But of course the "free(dumb) market" crowd will claim the above is communism, because apparently rigidly sticking to an ideology that very obviously isn't working is preferable to doing what's objectively best for their state.

Governments should be responsible for building out infrastructure for the public good things a nation can't live without.
They should build out power/water/traffic infrastructure and try to look in to the long term future.
Offer neutral education and basic health care and keep things fair and safe for everyone.

Crap like building high end semiconductor fabs for commercial purposes doesn't work

Yes, this too is anything but efficient.
The only way this will pay off for the tax payer is if something happens on the other side of the pacific

VerpalSince CHIPS act have earmarked 52.7 billion, lets say US government use that money to build a state of the art fab from the ground up, does it sounds like a realistic goal to you?

Imagine you are Intel, you ask TSMC: "Hey TSMC, let me buy your 5nm technology then build a fab and compete with you!", how do you imagine the price will look like? Maybe you imagine US government can do espionage stuff and just steal technology like China?

TBH, I am not entirely against the idea of having a state-owned fab, but building a state-owned fab from the ground up is an extremely inefficient way of spending money.
A much more reasonable way of getting capacity is buy an existing company in financial trouble or not doing particularly well, then you invest remaining money to compete and do whatever public sector goal you want to do. For example, perhaps consider to purchase something like GloFo, give it a massive capital injection, and start from there?

Company like GloFo isn't state of the art, but building a state owned fab from ground up won't get you state of the art process neither, you have to take it step by step, there are little to no short cut, even if you are US government.

And if you still want state of the art in short to medium term without mass IP theft? Well, you do what CHIPs act do, you throw some cash out with strings, and get state of the art fab setup in your country.

I think the idea is not that the government would suddenly become a chip manufacturer, but it would be owner or part owner of a chip manufacturing business. They would own part of the business they're giving the "handout" to and would be able to recoup the "handouts" with their take of the profits.

Instead we're still doing the stupid and failed trickle down economics of giving companies handouts in return for hopes and dreams that somehow the investment cycles back and returns through higher employment and economic prosperity which just doesn't and never worked.

kondaminCrap like building high end semiconductor fabs for commercial purposes doesn't work

Please, tell us why.

This is like a couple of millionaires standing in line at a food pantry to get free food. Then they start fighting over a loaf of bread. There is enough free bread to go around. There shouldn't be free bread for them to fight over, but corporate welfare isn't communism here in the land of the free!

The Governments already have their own fabs.
Just not high volume or commercial.
Military chips arent made at intel or tsmc.
GaAs chips were being fabbed 30 years ago, for example.
They may have cost 100 grand per chip, working or not, but Gov has very deep pockets, and secrets to stay secret ;)

I appreciate the recent editorializing TPU has been putting out around product releases and announcements, but what @TheLostSwede is doing here is not it.

Of course Micron is applying for aide that was announced years before they announced new plants. Of course they are competing with other fabs for that money.

Why all the conjecture and posturing other than to incite some stupid debate on subsidies? There’s no need for editorializing here, just post the Reuters piece or it’s equivalent rather than commenting, without any sources, about what you might think about a competition for funding.

TheLostSwedewhich the company claimed would create some 17,000 by 2030 in the area

17,000 what? I think you a word.

claesWhy all the conjecture and posturing other than to incite some stupid debate on subsidies?

'Cuz it drives debate, which drives clicks.

Of course, the interesting debates are generally the off-topic ones, which means that as soon as actually interesting debate starts, you can almost guarantee that mods will shut the thread down for being off topic.

Assimilator17,000 what? I think you a word.

Fixed.

AssimilatorPlease, tell us why.

Because governments do Not have a profit incentive, they can just use tax payer money to fill up shortfalls.
Just look at the former eastern block nations, it just doesn’t work.
there is no reason to innovate, there is no reason to streamline and work on production efficiency.
those nations went beyond broke.

we are seeing the same happening now, those esg pushing hedge funds that control 2/3 of the world economy are taking profits out of healthy companies and are stuffing it in to zombies that are playing by the rules they are setting even if those zombies are failing hard.

I think it’s more of a problem of the cia having to throw a coup in the us if it were to nationalize semiconductor fabrication, just too complicated for any sitting president

kondaminBecause governments do Not have a profit incentive, they can just use tax payer money to fill up shortfalls.

*Laughs in post office*

Leave it to the govenment sure HA!, the only thing that guarantee's is that it be a hell lot more.

kondaminBecause governments do Not have a profit incentive, they can just use tax payer money to fill up shortfalls.
Just look at the former eastern block nations, it just doesn’t work.
there is no reason to innovate, there is no reason to streamline and work on production efficiency.
those nations went beyond broke.

we are seeing the same happening now, those esg pushing hedge funds that control 2/3 of the world economy are taking profits out of healthy companies and are stuffing it in to zombies that are playing by the rules they are setting even if those zombies are failing hard.

Your problem is that you're looking at semiconductors as if they're an optional, luxury item. They aren't - they're part and parcel of our everyday lives that we simply cannot get away from. As such, domestic semiconductor production should be considered a public service/utility.

And just because it's a public service doesn't mean that the private sector cannot compete, nor that the public service shouldn't be held to reasonable private standards around giving the "shareholders" (the public) the best results it can.

GungarHe is being reasonable.

Yea, I'm not greedy, I just need 1million.

R-T-B*Laughs in post office*

Yes, since those were privatized all over europe they have been cutting back service and increasing prices
my country belgium probably ahead of the pack in degradation.
Which really sucks for the elderly

kondaminYes, since those were privatized all over europe they have been cutting back service and increasing prices
my country belgium probably ahead of the pack in degradation.
Which really sucks for the elderly

Yeah despite efforts to cripple the USPS stateside it somehow survives without nearly any funding from congress and being forced to fund retirements literal decades into the future for employees (something no one else does, but for some reason, they must)

Not everything government need be inefficient. Our unkillable post office is evidence of that.