Monday, June 8th 2020

HWInfo's Power Reporting Deviation Sensor Reveals How Motherboard Makers are Cheating Ryzen CPUs

Jun 8th, 2020 23:00 Discuss (32 Comments)

HWInfo with its latest version, introduced a new sensor that reveals whether your motherboard is tricking your 3rd Gen Ryzen processor into thinking its power consumption is within normal parameters, while in fact sending more power to it, to sustain boost clocks better, or support overclocking. These enhancements take advantage of the fact that an AMD Ryzen processor relies on the motherboard's CPU VRM controller for power-consumption telemetry, so the processor's power-management co-processor can accordingly adjust boost frequencies to stay within AMD's power-consumption limits.

Motherboard vendors have allegedly figured out a way to trick the processor into thinking its power consumption is within normal parameters (when it's not), and HWInfo's developer has determined a way to calculate the deviation between power consumption value reported to the CPU, against that measured by the VRM controller. This sensor is called "Power Reporting Deviation," and is an integer percentage value. 95-105% deviation can be interpreted as normal behavior, where the motherboard is respecting AMD specs. Anything outside this range could indicate a motherboard-level power enhancement designed to maximize performance of even processors that users prefer to run at stock speeds, reducing their lifespan. Overclocking legend "The Stilt" wrote a detailed essay on Power Reporting Deviation, which can be read here.

DOWNLOAD: HWInfo v6.27-4185 Beta

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32 Comments on HWInfo's Power Reporting Deviation Sensor Reveals How Motherboard Makers are Cheating Ryzen CPUs

thesmokingman

I also think motherboard reviewers need to read this asap. They need to dig into the bios and disable all the auto oc features so we get a real feel for boards.

R0H1T

thesmokingmanThey need to dig into the bios and disable all the auto oc features so we get a real feel for boards.

Why? This is actually good for testing temps & VRM, among other things. I doubt MB vendors can cheat on that, especially with an IR gun. For processor reviews though it seems to be a grey area, kinda like MCE.

thesmokingman

R0H1TWhy? This is actually good for testing temps & VRM, among other things. I doubt MB vendors can cheat on that, especially with an IR gun. For processor reviews though it seems to be a grey area, kinda like MCE.

Testing boards as they come has led to a nuclear situation, each vendor arming their MBs to win these tests. I want to know what the real performance is not be lied to. If they want to include a section where they can raise power draws so be it but I'd not want to buy into a lie.

Apocalypsee

Umm...this is weird. I run any sort of auto OC plus PBO disabled in BIOS and this is the reading. The reason why I disable PBO and such is because I'm still using stock cooler, don't like temp/clock/voltage spikes all over the time.

R0H1T

Looks like hwinfo is misreporting(?) readings :shadedshu:

thesmokingmanI want to know what the real performance is not be lied to. If they want to include a section where they can raise power draws so be it but I'd not want to buy into a lie.

What lie are we talking about? You do know AMD doesn't advertise TDP as power consumption, unlike Intel IIRC ~

TDP (Watts) = (tCase°C - tAmbient°C)/(HSF ϴca)

tCase°C: Optimal temperature for the die/heatspreader junction to achieve rated performance.

tAmbient°C: Optimal temperature at the HSF fan inlet to achieve rated performance.

HSF ϴca (°C/W): The minimum °C per Watt rating of the heatsink to achieve rated performance.

That's what TDP accounts for in case of AMD. I know a lot more complicated than it needs to be though Ryzen is also rather more complicated than the simplistic boost Intel uses.

thesmokingman

R0H1TLooks like hwinfo is misreporting readings :shadedshu:

What lie are we talking about? You do know AMD oesn;t advertise TDP as power consumption,, unlike Intel IIRC ~

TDP (Watts) = (tCase°C - tAmbient°C)/(HSF ϴca)

tCase°C: Optimal temperature for the die/heatspreader junction to achieve rated performance.

tAmbient°C: Optimal temperature at the HSF fan inlet to achieve rated performance.

HSF ϴca (°C/W): The minimum °C per Watt rating of the heatsink to achieve rated performance.

Why does this thread exist? Ah right it's because some board makers are lying to the cpu about how much power it is pulling so that board looks better. :rolleyes:

R0H1T

Yes & if you look at the headline you'll also see click-bait, anytime your CPU boosts its life expectancy reduces. Maybe we should all stop using boost altogether? Yes under-reporting "power consumption" is a major issue, but Ryzen doesn't just rely on one metric for boost, there's temp, voltage & a whole host of other stuff. In short a lot more investigation needs to be done to see the long term effect of this on chips.

evernessince

"I'd like to stress that despite this exploit is essentially made possible by something AMD has included in the specification, the use of this exploit is not something AMD condones with, let alone promotes.
Instead they have rather actively put pressure on the motherboard manufacturers, who have been caught using this exploit. "

www.hwinfo.com/forum/threads/explaining-the-amd-ryzen-power-reporting-deviation-metric-in-hwinfo.6456/

thesmokingman

ApocalypseeUmm...this is weird. I run any sort of auto OC plus PBO disabled in BIOS and this is the reading. The reason why I disable PBO and such is because I'm still using stock cooler, don't like temp/clock/voltage spikes all over the time.

Only full load numbers apply. Idle numbers you can ignore.

#10

Apocalypsee

thesmokingmanOnly full load numbers apply. Idle numbers you can ignore.

Right, thanks!

#11

Noztra

evernessince"I'd like to stress that despite this exploit is essentially made possible by something AMD has included in the specification, the use of this exploit is not something AMD condones with, let alone promotes.
Instead they have rather actively put pressure on the motherboard manufacturers, who have been caught using this exploit. "

www.hwinfo.com/forum/threads/explaining-the-amd-ryzen-power-reporting-deviation-metric-in-hwinfo.6456/

Shame on techpowerup for the clickbait title.

What do you expect.. Its all about how many clicks/views they can get.

#12

sutyi

thesmokingmanTesting boards as they come has led to a nuclear situation, each vendor arming their MBs to win these tests. I want to know what the real performance is not be lied to. If they want to include a section where they can raise power draws so be it but I'd not want to buy into a lie.

In the olden-olden days ASUS did 102MHz FSB... no news. MB vendors are doing similar stuff now, just different methods cause vastly modern tech. Nothing new under the sun...

#13

PanicLake

evernessince"I'd like to stress that despite this exploit is essentially made possible by something AMD has included in the specification, the use of this exploit is not something AMD condones with, let alone promotes.
Instead they have rather actively put pressure on the motherboard manufacturers, who have been caught using this exploit. "

www.hwinfo.com/forum/threads/explaining-the-amd-ryzen-power-reporting-deviation-metric-in-hwinfo.6456/

Shame on techpowerup for the clickbait title.

But the article also say: "The issue with using this exploit is, that it messes up the power management of the CPU and potentially also decreases its lifespan because it is running the CPU outside the spec..."
So TPU title even if click-baity is not false.

#14

Crackong

Are we just looking at an AMD variant of MCE ?
Nothing special I guess ?

#15

R0H1T

Ian doing what should've been reported alongside ~
Ultimately it's not the power that does the damage, it's the voltage. If a motherboard is increasing the volts from 1.32 volts to 1.38 volts, that's next to nothing, especially if the voltage peaks are within 0.01 volts.

#16

W1zzard

PanicLakeBut the article also say: "The issue with using this exploit is, that it messes up the power management of the CPU and potentially also decreases its lifespan because it is running the CPU outside the spec..."
So TPU title even if click-baity is not false.

I've fixed the title for you

#17

Assimilator

R0H1TIan doing what should've been reported alongside ~
Ultimately it's not the power that does the damage, it's the voltage. If a motherboard is increasing the volts from 1.32 volts to 1.38 volts, that's next to nothing, especially if the voltage peaks are within 0.01 volts.

I think you wanted

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1270245205090934784

rather.

"For AMD users, it's a nothingburger."

#18

R0H1T

Wanted what, better reporting?

#19

Assimilator

R0H1TWanted what, better reporting?

The full thread, with all the context.

#20

apoklyps3

I remember all the times the mobo reduced the lifespan of my CPU.
oh wait, that never happened.

#21

theGryphon

Holy sht! My Crosshair VIII Impact with 3950X is reporting 80 to 85%!

#22

Assimilator

www.anandtech.com/show/15839/electromigration-amd-ryzen-current-boosting-wont-kill-your-cpu

#23

thesmokingman

Assimilatorwww.anandtech.com/show/15839/electromigration-amd-ryzen-current-boosting-wont-kill-your-cpu

I don't get where he's going with that and look how he brackets it with proper cooling BS. The Stilt has done a ton of research on this, shed light on FIT safety, and has been the only one researching degradation on these cpus. You use these cpus wrong and in the wrong conditions and it will degrade.

#24

ObscureAngelPT

Assimilatorwww.anandtech.com/show/15839/electromigration-amd-ryzen-current-boosting-wont-kill-your-cpu

Current Boosting, not PBO!
My MSI B450M Mortal Max comes by default with both turbo and Precision boost enabled, PBO goes over spec power reporting derivation goes above the 100% while with turbo never gone above 100%, which makes sense!
I can't complain of MSI bringing boost enabled by default, but PBO is pretty much the AutoOC mode for Ryzen.
I end up disabling both since with the GTX 1650 Super, there is 0 bottleneck with my 3600X running without stock, and with the stock fan, the noise and temperatures are way much better.
Altough in the feature as soon as I get something better (cooling) I might end up enabling both again.
Cheers

#25

kapone32

Even though this may be anecdotal it may explain why every AM4 Gigabyte board I have bought and OC have gone to 00 post code over time.

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HWInfo's Power Reporting Deviation Sensor Reveals How Motherboard Makers are Cheating Ryzen CPUs

32 Comments on HWInfo's Power Reporting Deviation Sensor Reveals How Motherboard Makers are Cheating Ryzen CPUs

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