NVIDIA GeForce 4XX Series Discussion

[Binge]

Those "leaked" AMD slides were fake, I mean they had to be, 90% over the GTX285 lol.

So true and really I was hoping nobody would bring that up. If there was ever an argument later I would totally site that to shut a fanboy up.

 

[qubit]

GT300 life-like high detail rendering?

Fudzilla

 

[Benetanegia]

http://i37.tinypic.com/2n8d5bc.jpg

Fudzilla

First of all, I don't think it's real-time, but it could be real-time. There are actually only 2 main differences between this and Crysis for example:

1- Raytracing.
2- Artwork, dedication.

1- The beauty of ray-tracing is that even though it has a huge impact in performance that you can see as a huge overhead, as you go higher in details it becomes the better/cheaper solution. Ray-tracing performance is mostly affected by the number of rays being cast and is mostly agnostic to the complexity of the scene being rendered. Performance won't vary too much from an empty reflective room, to a full detailed room (read it as there's no order of magnitude impact as you will find with rasterization, there's still and impact from the shaders being used, textures, etc). Well, Nvidia already demostrated an impresive ray-tracing demo in GTC with multiple light bounces and hundreds of thousands of rays being cast per second real-time and even back when GT200 was launched they showed something impressive too (same thing actually, just with much less detail, rays and bounces).

So being that they already got high-detail ray-tracing running, only artwork is left actually.

2- Once that the higher details of ray-tracing lighting are at your disposal, the only difference between the graphics in Crysis or any other modern game for that matter and the screenshot that we see here is the artwork, and what it makes the difference is the time that you have devoted to making it. Putting so much detail in a full game is nearly imposible considering the deadlines, but I doubt that even the powerful Fermi could handle that detail on a full game scene anyway. A head like this one it can easily handle it though.

Bottom lime is, it could be real-time, even though I highly doubt it for some reason, and we won't see games with those graphics anytime soon, I think... I would love so much to be completely wrong... Oh please make me be wrong!

 

[mR Yellow]

I wonder what happened to the ATI ray tracing vids that were leaked a few months ago.
Looked awesome.

 

[phanbuey]

That article was writen following rumors of Ati being late. That is, that Nvidia always wanted to release it in November and Ati could release later. It's Ati releasing first which has changed. That Ati was going to release before schedule made to the news so it's not really a surprise. Besides:
.

Actually no it wasn't since in the article nvidia sources claimed as early as August.

Im wondering what it is that is delaying them if not for the yields... I mean i know things get a little weird when you get to such a small production process, and certain chip designs that work on 55nm will not work on 40nm - but if it isn't the yields, and they do have 7 working chips, then why the silence in a time where they are losing sales hand over fist.

Just wondering, thats all.

Another thing is: AMD made the 4770 well ahead of the 5800 release - it was their test with the smaller process. NV almost always does the same thing - instead they went to 55nm, and never even made a 40nm mid-range card before trying to make Fermi.

 

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

1) take photograph with dramatic lighting and macro lens
2) Sharpen and Resize photo to a small resolution
3) Put nvidia logo and other text
4) Post to Chinese website and email fudzilla
5) ???????
6) Profit!!!!!

at least the above is the case (I believe) for the first "render" the second one looks legit, but who's to say it didn't just come from a traditional rendering suite?

Fud is Fud in this case

 

[Benetanegia]

1) take photograph with dramatic lighting and macro lens
2) Sharpen and Resize photo to a small resolution
3) Put nvidia logo and other text
4) ?????
5) Profit!!!!!!!

at least the above is the case (I believe) for the first "render" the second one looks legit, but who's to say it didn't just come from a traditional rendering suite?

Fud is Fud in this case

It's not a photo and it's not so good as to think it might be a photo. It clearly is a render, but it might be a pre-rendered image. They are not claiming it to be real-time anyway. GPU rendered, yes, but not real-time. Nvidia owns Mental Ray as you might know* and this might be marketing for a GPU accelerated Mental Ray solution, which would kick ass and I don't know why they didn't make one already BTW.

* For those who don't know, Mental ray is the most successful ray-tracing renderer, which comes with 3DStudio Max and Maya (between many others, it's standalone too).

 

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

yeah, but this seems oddly similar to the "leaked" futuremark 3dmark vantage screens we saw before vantage came out... if it were really nvidia it would be on nvidia's site, no?

taking a second look at those lip textures I think I see now....

either way they are definitely prerender

 

[kid41212003]

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20091030PD209.html

TSMC 40nm yield issues resurface, CEO promises fix by year-end

Claire Sung, Taipei; Jessie Shen, DIGITIMES [Friday 30 October 2009]

Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) has revealed it recently run into issues with its 40nm process technology impacting yields. Company chairman and CEO Morris Chang pledged the issue will be solved within the quarter.

TSMC said it has seen yield rates for its 40nm node drop to 40% due chamber matching issues. Main customers for TSMC's 40nm processes are GPU vendors AMD, which recently launched its new 40nm-based Radeon 5870 series, and Nvidia, who is scheduled to launch its 40nm-based GT300 series of chips in December, according to previous reports. TSMC's recent issues may impact the shipping schedules of the GPU vendors, market watchers commented.

During TSMC's July 2009 investors conference, Chang revealed that yield rates for 40nm processes had improved to 60%, up from as low as 20-30% in the second quarter of 2009.

In other news, TSMC has released its October 2009 investors report in which company CFO Lora Ho said, "Due to stronger demand for 40nm and 65nm technologies, TSMC 2009 capex has risen further and is expected to be around US$2.7 billion." Accordingly, TSMC's fourth-quarter capex may total around US$1.34 billion, up from US$971 million alloted in the third quarter and US$224 million in the second quarter.

TSMC revealed that 45/40nm accounted for 4% of the company's third-quarter revenues, compared to 1% in the first and second quarters. TSMC said it aims to push up the sales proportion to 10% by the end of 2009.

Look like it's official .

 

[Binge]

(some conspiracy bullshit cut out)

Fud is Fud in this case

Aside from your conspiracy theories are you saying that rumors are rumors? Fud has sources just like Semiaccurate, and other places that might get info before it's supposed to be released. Always take this with a grain of salt, but don't damn the tech-news sites for giving the readers more information and plainly saying it's rumor.

btw, do you remember those lifelike images ATI rendered? They look as good as the first image that's shown, but without a fake background put in place.

 

[Benetanegia]

btw, do you remember those lifelike images ATI rendered? They look as good as the first image that's shown, but without a fake background put in place.

Oh, yeah I had forgotten about Ivana Milicevic. If I had to say what of the pictures had more chances of being fake between these ones and the Ivana, I would say the Ivana was fake, without a doubt, primarily because it was Ivana in a pose that I almost remembered looking somewhere tbh. They could have taken one picture or still frame and make the model based on that, but they could thus try to pass a photo as real too that way. Probably both are real and we just have to doubt it because they look to good to be true.

TBH it'd piss me off to know they are all doing real-time models that look way better than the ones that I've made for off-line rendering. Well no, actually I've been preparing myself for that for some years now.

 

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

that was 90% joke lol I didnt think it was real but then again I dont tend to believe any of the crap posted on INQ/Semiaccurate/BSN/FUD

 

[Binge]

Oh, yeah I had forgotten about Ivana Milicevic. If I had to say what of the pictures had more chances of being fake between these ones and the Ivana, I would say the Ivana was fake, without a doubt, primarily because it was Ivana in a pose that I almost remembered looking somewhere tbh. They could have taken one picture or still frame and make the model based on that, but they could thus try to pass a photo as real too that way. Probably both are real and we just have to doubt it because they look to good to be true.

TBH it'd piss me off to know they are all doing real-time models that look way better than the ones that I've made for off-line rendering. Well no, actually I've been preparing myself for that for some years now.

There was no chance in hell the Ivana pictures were fakes by ATI. I was freaking there. As for your rendering, there are programs in the industry that are coded to milk every facet of the GPU for speed. Unless you have a workstation card and you work for some seriously high end 3D firm I doubt you'll ever really know because those trade secrets are under lock and key and welded lips. There are actually graphic designers/software engineers out there who pop 300k a year easy, but there's a reason why nobody else in the same business is making that much.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=41484607

 

[Benetanegia]

There was no chance in hell the Ivana pictures were fakes by ATI. I was freaking there. As for your rendering, there are programs in the industry that are coded to milk every facet of the GPU for speed. Unless you have a workstation card and you work for some seriously high end 3D firm I doubt you'll ever really know because those trade secrets are under lock and key and welded lips. There are actually graphic designers/software engineers out there who pop 300k a year easy, but there's a reason why nobody else in the same business is making that much.

Hmm, I didn't knew that about the Ivana picture. I just saw here in TPU posted as if it was a leaked image so I had some small doubts. I know it can be done real-time, as I explained in a post Crysis and other games are almost there, but as I also said I just don't want to accept it.

Yeah I'm just a sort of semi-pro, mostly freelance for companies near my city that want some renders here and there. I do know about the kind of marvels they have in the high ranks. I had the option to access one of those muscle based animators in a place I worked on and was just WOW! I've never heard of a GPU accelerated renderer besides Nvidia Gelato though and that was not very "convenient", you had to use special shaders, etc. I haven't searched a lot tbh, those kind of things cost a fortune so I just pass.

 

[Binge]

They are a myserious lot eh? Sorry for the overall tone of my last post. I just hope you recieved it and brushed off my bad writing. The Ivana image was presented to a large audiance and rendered live using two 5870s. The image was deconstructed and reconstructed in real time for about 2 minutes, and then the slides moved on.

 

[Benetanegia]

They are a myserious lot eh? Sorry for the overall tone of my last post. I just hope you recieved it and brushed off my bad writing. The Ivana image was presented to a large audiance and rendered live using two 5870s. The image was deconstructed and reconstructed in real time for about 2 minutes, and then the slides moved on.

No problem. The only reason I had small doubts was that I didn't know it had been shown in a presentation, I completely ignored the origin of that render. The fact that it was over-exposed didn't help too much either, because there's no simpler way of faking as over-exposing a photo and creating a 3D model out of the same photo, then saying it's a render of that model. From what I read there's been some cases of that in Raph.com and CGSociety, so it's not new or unprecedented.

Since it was from a presentation it was real, without a doubt. I just wonder why they chose an emaciated Ivana lol. I know why they did it from a technical/artistic point of view, but why not use an unknown model or if you are going to use a celebrity use one that most people know.

 

[Binge]

In that render she was supposed to be the new ATI Ruby which showed off their newest tech. Everyone needs work somewhere. Her agent did a good job in getting her paid to sit in a room which the walls were littered with special cameras.

 

[Benetanegia]

In that render she was supposed to be the new ATI Ruby which showed off their newest tech.

It's Ivana without a doubt. Wheter they used her as the model on purpose or wheter the modeler is secretly in love with her and can only model her face is irrelevant haha. If it's going to be Ruby and used in lots of media and covers, they might have to pay Ivana for her rights. Lol I don't know if they apply tbh. A perfect render of your face belongs to you?

EDIT: Ah so it was her.
EDIT2: We are wayyyyy off-topic btw, we should finish it here. I guess it's OK since there's almost nothing to talk about in the thread yet? At least it keeps the thread going lol.

 

[Binge]

Paying her however much they paid her for one use of her 3D realism to make a statement to shareholders seemed to be worth it for them. They will most likely never use the same render again for their box/gpu art, but at that time it was a tactic to gain favor in the people who keep their business alive.

::Edit:: it's on the topic of nV's latest 3D rendered images. For some reason their NDA is sticking, and people aren't breaking it. The latest thing I've heard about the performance of the GT300 was from a guy on a flight sim forum who is actually being used for consumer testing. They hired him for the GT200 and the G80, so I thought it would be good to check up where he normally lurks. All he said was that it was impressive

 

[Benetanegia]

Paying her however much they paid her for one use of her 3D realism to make a statement to shareholders seemed to be worth it for them. They will most likely never use the same render again for their box/gpu art, but at that time it was a tactic to gain favor in the people who keep their business alive.

::Edit:: it's on the topic of nV's latest 3D rendered images. For some reason their NDA is sticking, and people aren't breaking it. The latest thing I've heard about the performance of the GT300 was from a guy on a flight sim forum who is actually being used for consumer testing. They hired him for the GT200 and the G80, so I thought it would be good to check up where he normally lurks. All he said was that it was impressive

If it's not going to be used in box-art and banners (I said covers and was thinking of banners ) then they don't have to pay her, if they had to pay her at all, besides for the modeling work I mean. I was thinking they would use her as Ruby, and in that case they might have to pay her like Loreal or Vistoria's Secret.

About the leaks, a NDA is only as effective as your response in case someone breaks it. They had not taken legal actions in the past AFAIK, but maybe they are offering much more extrict and scary documents nowadays and have found a way to make clear they'd take actions. I remember reading an editorial (based on rumors mostly) about the graphics companies taking actions against NDA breakings not so long ago. The article mentioned a rumor about Nvidia and Ati leaking false and different info to different suspects in an attempt to catch them. I doubted the veracity of this story, basically because common suspects usually come from card manufacturers and partners and I doubt they would give false info to them.

EDIT: It was 1 or even two years ago actually. Depending on the context when I say not so long ago it means a pair of years. God I'm feeling old these days. A young girl called me sir (señor) two weeks ago, figure it. I'm 26 (almost 27) for the record.

 

[Bo_Fox]

yeah, but this seems oddly similar to the "leaked" futuremark 3dmark vantage screens we saw before vantage came out... if it were really nvidia it would be on nvidia's site, no?

taking a second look at those lip textures I think I see now....

either way they are definitely prerender

Yeah, the bottom of the nostrils so looks like a prerender. I had to look at the picture for a bit to see that.

 

[erocker]

It is a render. It is not a video or anything like that, it's a single frame render.

 

[Bo_Fox]

that was 90% joke lol I didnt think it was real but then again I dont tend to believe any of the crap posted on INQ/Semiaccurate/BSN/FUD

So far over the years, all of those rumors from Fud, Charlie, etc.. have been proved to be more than 50:50 in being correct. So it's better than nothing pour moi!

They are a myserious lot eh? Sorry for the overall tone of my last post. I just hope you recieved it and brushed off my bad writing. The Ivana image was presented to a large audiance and rendered live using two 5870s. The image was deconstructed and reconstructed in real time for about 2 minutes, and then the slides moved on.

Ahh cool, didnt know about that but I did see a computerized photo of that Ruby girl (with shades/polygons and stuff). Some of her features (especially eyes) are rather different from Ivana's. Perhaps they already did a contract with Ivana just to acquire the basic modeling of the polygons, and then AMD could do whatever they wished with the renderings, and the less "exact" it were and the more anonymous it was (without making any references to Ivana), there were not quite so many ties to Ivana after the simple contract that ensured the "renderings" would be AMD"s property.

 

[Binge]

Fermi comes later

Nvidia's next upcoming card unfortunately won't be Fermi. On November 17th, Nvidia plans to officially introduce the Geforce GT 240.

The card is targeting the mainstream market and it supports DirectX 10.1, not DirectX 11. We suspect that it should do well for itself in this market segment. The plan is to replace the aging Geforce 9600GSO / GT cards with this new 40nm refresh.

The card features 96 cores and naturally supports PhysX. On another note, the GDDR3 version will run at 900MHz and this indicates that there might also be room for a version that supports some other memory interface, most likely GDDR5.

The card should made available in the Geforce 9600GSO / GT price range and should make use as a good PhysX solution for the enthusiast crowd.

Source: Fudzilla

This isn't too disappointing, but I wish they could come up with some more detailed information. It's all too brief. What did we learn here? nV has made news of two redesigned cards in the past month. Great. So what about Fermi? Later? You say late Nov, or Dec? Which is it? It's very vague if they are making claims at all. What about the GDDR3 speeds indicate there might be room for a GDDR5 version? Am I supposed to be excited because they mentioned enthusiasts? Really I'm not excited, and I'm not even left feeling informed. I feel the same as I did last week.

 

[MilkyWay]

They are holding back but why?
Every card so far is just a tweaked 8800 series ROFL!

Nobody needs a gt240, plenty of decent options already on the table. I bet its just to get rid of all the left over chips they manufactured.