Mantle API presentation by AMD, DICE and Oxide - AMD Summit 2013

[DannibusX]

SteamBox is actually a PC in a fancy case, similarly like Mac, Valve is kind of a joke company that tries to piggyback on something to get profits from, remember dota debacle, now they want to get into consoles. Yeah I'm critical, they aren't doing anything better than a standard corporation, all the piles of cash sitting there doing nothing.

You're right. Steambox is a PC in a fancy case. So is the Xbox One and PlayStation 4.

lol, Valve is totally a joke company. I mean they didn't revitalize the PC gaming market or anything. They haven't saved me hundred of dollars on AAA titles or anything like that. The super greedy fatcats at Valve are so evil that they are spending money on a project that might actually fail, while trying to get support from the rest of the video game industry to move some of their games to a platform which has next to no profitability. All in the name of their wallets. Valve can do whatever it wants because it has both the finances to do so, and no public shareholders demanding profit. I hope I don't upset you when I tell you that the vast majority of gamers don't want to do it on the PC, it's too much of a hassle and the perceived expense also holds them back.

Mantle, a great idea that it is, will do jack shit unless AMD can get more companies that DICE to work with it. Why would a company put more work into a game on the PC when the same exact platform (Xbox One) would require DirectX? AMD needs not only game developers, but competing hardware manufacturers to be on board, and it ain't gonna happen unless AMD allows it to be used outside of their own ecosystem.

 

[Frick]

They haven't saved me hundred of dollars on AAA titles or anything like that.

Given Steam AAA games cost more than physical versions, this is probably correct.

 

[RoutedScripter]

In that TechReport article, they actually said them self 50% could eventually be the performance boost over time as rewrite their rendering engines from ground up, but they wanted to stay low at 20% for the initial proof point demos etc.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Why would a company put more work into a game on the PC when the same exact platform (Xbox One) would require DirectX?

Made by Microsoft, authors of Windows and Direct3D. Same exact platform, pffft.

I find it odd you acknowledge the differences and challenges AMD faces with their Mantle API, yet seem clueless on why Xone is strictly Windows and Direct3D, vs Linux or Mantle.

The Xone does not "require" DirectX, nor does any other platform, it's a conscious business decision by the manufacturer.

 

[xenocide]

Potential for them to make more money? So what do we get back, better PC games that actually support the hardcore platform to make it relevant or we get some more dota clones with pay2win and fancy contholler ?

DotA 2 is hardly a DotA Clone considering it's made by the longest running dev of the original game and updates were ran side-by-side up until the most recent patch (when DotA 2 started getting updates sooner). It's also not Pay-to-Win since none of the items you can buy have any affect on the actual gameplay--I cannot speak on behalf of TF2 but last I heard the items were largely cosmetic as well. The controller they are introducing is very interesting, it's been a long time since anyone has tried to do anything rather than just 2 thumbsticks, a d-pad, 4 buttons on the right, and 2 shoulder buttons. Other than moving an analog stick up or down the PS2/PS3/PS4/Dreamcast/Xbox/Xbox 360/Xbox One/Wii U "Pro" have all largely been the exact same design.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

...it's been a long time since anyone has tried to do anything rather than just 2 thumbsticks, a d-pad, 4 buttons on the right, and 2 shoulder buttons. Other than moving an analog stick up or down the PS2/PS3/PS4/Dreamcast/Xbox/Xbox 360/Xbox One/Wii U "Pro" have all largely been the exact same design.

Amen to that!

 

[RoutedScripter]

Well actually, my interest stops there, even about dicussing what new "gaming experiences" (read: hypnotization programmes) will this new controller bring , I just see gaming as nothing else than what music and hollywood movies are, a part of social engineering as most gamers' life revolves around it and sitting down on a lazy couch and being a good consumer buying the things you don't need with the money you don't have that every corporation loves. All this VR is fantastic stuff technically, but I rather live in the real world.

I can understand some competitive gaming as a sport where it's all as a hobby, not as a way of life that you turn into a mindless zombie promoting

I follow regularly the starcraft 2 esports stuff, big tournaments only, twice per 3 months or something, but, It makes me sick when I see them promoting all the toxic poison redbulls and other energy drinks and promoting lack of sleep as something cool and trendy, among other "gamer life" features, you see all the people giving each other confidence to the way of life they bless, some kind of a ritual or something they make them selfs feel like they're in the heights of mankind's achivement or something.

It's kind in the back of my head, I don't watch these matches like a standard football fan or something, I don't participate in any discussions either, it's just a time filler that I really wouldn't mind missing.

 

[bpgt64]

As someone who's first build was an AMD64 3400, I would love to support them again. Since that CPU I have largely been using Intel for gaming, but if Mantle changes that, it would be revolutionary.

 

[TheHunter]

Well I can't wait to see more Devs supporting it, this thing will own.
Final fantasy movie like gfx in the horizon ^^


Hopefully U4E, Luminous (SquareEnix engine) will follow too..



And since Mantle its open to all, its up to nvidia to write a driver for it.

 

[HTC]

I don't mind if this ends up giving AMD ... say ... 20% boost in performance of Mantle able cards BUT nVidia must be able to "join in on the fun" by coming up with drivers that take advantage of this and have a boost too (probably not as good as AMDs since their CGN architecture is what Mantle is designed to work with) because, if not, i foresee bad times ahead for us consumers.

If it works, Mantle is DEFINITELY a good thing BUT it MUST be useable by all manufacturers even if it gives one an edge over the others: as long as that edge isn't big, there's no excuse to overprice the cards but if the edge is wide, then they have that excuse and that is VERY BAD.

 

[RoutedScripter]

As someone who's first build was an AMD64 3400, I would love to support them again. Since that CPU I have largely been using Intel for gaming, but if Mantle changes that, it would be revolutionary.

CPU Performance will be improved extremely, but doesn't mean what CPU you use.

because, if not, i foresee bad times ahead for us consumers.

Like what?



BTW for everyone: https://twitter.com/UnnDann/status/403593218341617664

And:
http://www.rebellion.co.uk/blog/2013/11/21/rebellion-throws-weight-behind-amd-mantle

Come on guys ... there will no shortage of mantle games.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Quite frankly I'm not sure I'll buy into O Rift either, and not just out of resistance to accept any implied marketing "hypnotism". I'm seriously concerned about long term effects on vision, attention span, etc. Just LCD displays themselves are bad enough long term on eyesight, and OLED/PLED has yet to prove to have a lifespan adequate enough for anything but small devices that people don't keep very long (cell phones, etc).

As far as Mantle's projected performance boost, one thing that concerns me is most only talk in terms of added frames per second, but we're seeing an increasing number of games that don't play smoothly even if you're getting good frame rates. I think both AMD and Nvidia need to focus more on frame pacing before they go trying to boost performance, and it's not just an issue with Crossfire and SLI. Single GPU performance is often crippled by erratic frame rate fluctuation too.

 

[HTC]

Like what?

Overpricing: having a measurable lead means you can overprice. Just look @ nVidia with Titan or Intel with lots of their CPUs.


Don't get me wrong: i hope Mantle succeeds but if it's to give one side a clear advantage over the other, then this could end up hurting us consumers more then it helps, IMO.

 

[xenocide]

BTW for everyone: https://twitter.com/UnnDann/status/403593218341617664

And:
http://www.rebellion.co.uk/blog/2013/11/21/rebellion-throws-weight-behind-amd-mantle

Come on guys ... there will no shortage of mantle games.

I can't see the first link (damn firewall at work) but Rebellion Development is really nothing to brag about, the only "noteworthy" title they've made recently was Sniper Elite, and that game was pretty awful. I would say Mantle needs someone like Epic Games, ID, Bethesda, or Crytek to fully endorse/support the API for it to stand a fighting chance.

Overpricing: having a measurable lead means you can overprice. Just look @ nVidia with Titan or Intel with lots of their CPUs.


Don't get me wrong: i hope Mantle succeeds but if it's to give one side a clear advantage over the other, then this could end up hurting us consumers more then it helps, IMO.

Intel actually charge a reasonable market value for most of their products, with the exception of the ultra high-end which is just paying for bragging rights really. You can't say an i5-3570 or something like that is unreasonably expensive considering the alternatives. Titan also wasn't horrifically overpriced, the problem is people only looked at it as a Gaming Graphics Card--It was a very low-end Tesla, and when you consider the performance it offered, it was a fucking STEAL at that price point.

I hope it works out, but if AMD locks down the market, it's bad for everyone.

 

[HTC]

Intel actually charge a reasonable market value for most of their products, with the exception of the ultra high-end

What if Mantle works out and the difference is high enough for mid high level (or mid level even) cards to have around the performance of high end competitor's performance levels? What's to stop AMD from overpricing the shit out of their high end cards then?

Titan also wasn't horrifically overpriced, the problem is people only looked at it as a Gaming Graphics Card--It was a very low-end Tesla, and when you consider the performance it offered, it was a fucking STEAL at that price point.

Agree there.

I hope it works out, but if AMD locks down the market, it's bad for everyone.

Exactly.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

If it works, Mantle is DEFINITELY a good thing BUT it MUST be useable by all manufacturers even if it gives one an edge over the others: as long as that edge isn't big, there's no excuse to overprice the cards but if the edge is wide, then they have that excuse and that is VERY BAD.

Mantle is open unlike most of NVIDIA technologies.

I can't see the first link (damn firewall at work) but Rebellion Development is really nothing to brag about, the only "noteworthy" title they've made recently was Sniper Elite, and that game was pretty awful. I would say Mantle needs someone like Epic Games, ID, Bethesda, or Crytek to fully endorse/support the API for it to stand a fighting chance.

It could. We'll find out as the next generation of games start launching.

 

[xenocide]

What if Mantle works out and the difference is high enough for mid high level (or mid level even) cards to have around the performance of high end competitor's performance levels? What's to stop AMD from overpricing the shit out of their high end cards then?

Historically AMD has not shyed away from pricing their top tier products absurdly high when they have the performance crown. Anyone remember the original FX CPU's? Or when a 200MHz bump cost about $100 on Socket 939? Luckily Nvidia has kept them on their toes and Intel came back with Core2. I have no doubt if Phenom worked out as intended and Core2 never happened we would have seen years of AMD CPU's running at the price point Intel's high end did.

If AMD corners the market, and Mantle pans out as intended, it could be bad. If Nvidia has to spend a year or two recovering, and CPU performance becomes somewhat irrelevant, expect Steamroller-based CPU's to launch at or above the price point of Intel CPU's (if Intel can't offer 8-core CPU's and threads are now all that matter why wouldn't AMD charge a pretty penny?) and their GPU's to slowly climb in price as people hurry to replace their Nvidia hardware with Mantle-friendly AMD GPU's.

 

[HTC]

Mantle is open unlike most of NVIDIA technologies.

While it seems so, it definitely seems to favor CGN architecture which will obviously give an edge to AMD: what i'm saying is that, as long and that edge is small, no worries, but if it turns out to be big, then that could be bad for us, $ wise.

 

[xenocide]

While it seems so, it definitely seems to favor CGN architecture which will obviously give an edge to AMD: what i'm saying is that, as long and that edge is small, no worries, but if it turns out to be big, then that could be bad for us, $ wise.

My major concern is that they are using a misleading definition of "open". Something along the lines of, it's free for all developers to use, but for hardware vendors you have to pay a licensing fee to actually implement support. I mean, technically PhysX ran on AMD hardware, but Nvidia inmplemented that nasty "emulate on CPU when AMD GPU detected" line of code which basically ruined any chance of it running well on competing hardware.

 

[bwat47]

You're right. Steambox is a PC in a fancy case. So is the Xbox One and PlayStation 4.

lol, Valve is totally a joke company. I mean they didn't revitalize the PC gaming market or anything. They haven't saved me hundred of dollars on AAA titles or anything like that. The super greedy fatcats at Valve are so evil that they are spending money on a project that might actually fail, while trying to get support from the rest of the video game industry to move some of their games to a platform which has next to no profitability. All in the name of their wallets. Valve can do whatever it wants because it has both the finances to do so, and no public shareholders demanding profit. I hope I don't upset you when I tell you that the vast majority of gamers don't want to do it on the PC, it's too much of a hassle and the perceived expense also holds them back.

Mantle, a great idea that it is, will do jack shit unless AMD can get more companies that DICE to work with it. Why would a company put more work into a game on the PC when the same exact platform (Xbox One) would require DirectX? AMD needs not only game developers, but competing hardware manufacturers to be on board, and it ain't gonna happen unless AMD allows it to be used outside of their own ecosystem.

AMD has said multiple times that they are not interested in having mantle being limited to AMD hardware, and that they want to make it an open standard. Currently its still in early development and only runs on AMD GCN cards, but that is not the long term plan. They even said they'd consider handing it off to khronos group: http://techreport.com/review/25683/delving-deeper-into-amd-mantle-api/4 ("For its part, AMD isn't opposed to addressing some of those political hurdles. Guennadi Riguer said the company is "fairly open to working with other [independent hardware vendors]," and he reiterated that Mantle has been "purposely structured . . . in such a way that it's as clean as possible, as transferable to other vendors as possible." When asked if AMD would be amenable to making Mantle an open API overseen by the Khronos Group—the same folks who look after OpenGL—he replied, "I don't see why not." At this point, Jurjen Katsman chimed in, saying that AMD shouldn't hand Mantle to Khronos right away, because it's "not done."")

Mantle also already has support from non-dice developers. In addition to the 15 or so frostbite 3 powered games, it will also be supported by the upcoming thief and star citizen games. From what I've seen developers seem fairly enthusiastic about mantle.

 

[Fourstaff]

AMD has said multiple times that they are not interested in having mantle being limited to AMD hardware, and that they want to make it an open standard.

Open standard doesn't mean anything if GCN is the only architecture able to support Mantle.

 

[erocker]

Open standard doesn't mean anything if GCN is the only architecture able to support Mantle.

From what I gather it's not. Mantle is it's own thing, like Driect X. Nvidia gets their architecture to work with Direct X, so does AMD. Nvidia just needs to make their architecture work with Mantle.

...unless I'm totally wrong, which is always a possibility.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Yeah, AMD wants NVIDIA and Intel to adapt Mantle too. The only way I see that happening is Microsoft implementing it in DirectX 12 or 13 but the won't because Mantle completes with DirectX more than it complements it. If AMD is the only one to implement it, it'll turn into PhysX where it gets a surge of support then fades to nothing.

If it does deliver on the performance promises, I can't see NVIDIA and Intel not implementing it with or without Microsoft. On titles where it is supported, AMD would trounce the competition and that makes the competition look bad. They'll want to rectify it just from a marketing stand point.

Mantle (or something like it) is what Windows has been lacking since the 1990s. Back then, game developers coded for the silicon because they needed to wring every drop of performance they could out of the hardware. Now everyone has gotten lazy and codes for APIs like DirectX which does mean we get shiny looking games for little production costs but at the same time, computer hardware isn't operating anywhere close to optimal. Mantle represents a return to coding for silicon.

 

[erocker]

Yeah, AMD wants NVIDIA and Intel to adapt Mantle too. The only way I see that happening is Microsoft implementing it in DirectX 12 or 13 but the won't because Mantle completes with DirectX more than it complements it. If AMD is the only one to implement it, it'll turn into PhysX where it gets a surge of support then fades to nothing.

Well, if enough developers pick it up, it works better than Direct X (visuals, performance) and if customers like it, want it... Nvidia and Intel will most likely jump on it.

 

[xenocide]

Wouldn't Nvidia and Intel have to spend a good amount of resources to get their hardware to work properly with Mantle? And at that point wouldn't AMD basically be dictating where hardware development went from that point on? I don't believe Khronos is the best group to oversee something like Mantle considering they have done a miserable job keeping OpenGL updated and running properly...