OFFICIAL Fallout 4 (Discussion)

[lilhasselhoffer]

I know right, like if they have a thorn in their ass. TBH i have had enough of their opinion they think everyone should agree with.

Perhaps you are projecting a bit much. Let's review my opinion.

1) The shooting mechanics of Fallout 3 sucked.
2) Bethesda introduced VATS as a way to cover for terrible shooting mechanics.
3) VATS is not a necessary component to the RPG elements of Fallout.
4) VATS itself is broken through perks.

My opinion is that VATS needs to be an "easy mode" option. It'd functionally be relegated to the same menu option as aim assist in many shooters. In order to do that, all you need to do is make the shooting mechanics in Fallout not stupid. The argument of visceral shooting is a fallacy, as demonstrated by Sniper Elite. The argument that the RPG elements would disappear is irrelevant, as demonstrated by Mass Effect. The argument that it is a staple of Fallout is silly, because it's has no special connection to the lore. If that isn't apparent, demonstrate to me that it is impossible to run a playthrough of Fallout 3 without ever using VATS. During the same playthrough tell me what staples of the universe you can avoid. It isn't the Brotherhood of Steel, super mutants, drug usage, or even Nuka Cola. Tell me again how VATS is a requirement, and be honest with yourself.


Do you like VATS? Do I say it's impossible to like VATS? Did I ever say I hated VATS? Does any of these points relate to a cogent idea? The simple truth is that people seem to have equated VATS with Fallout 3, and that is counter productive. Fallout 3, assuming the shooting was done competently, didn't need VATS. If Fallout 4 took the lessons of Fallout 3, STALKER, Sniper Elite, and Mass Effect we'd have a game that was truly Fallout without needing VATS. Somehow you equate the statement that the shooting should be improved, with hate for VATS. I don't hate it, I hate that it was necessary in the game. If you want to keep it, go ahead. What I want is shooting competently executed, so VATS is unnecessary. It's easier to play a role when I don't need god mode to survive it.

 

[Black Panther]

The way I see it VATS is just an optional feature and anyone's free to ignore it.

 

[BumbleBee]

I think Skyrim or TES needs VATS more than Fallout does. First Person Sword/Melee combat is really hard to do.

 

[Nailezs]

Been skimming through most of this argument about the shooting mechanics of FA3 and VATS compared to other games.

VATS and the poor shooting mechanics are why I was never able to finish FA3 and never bothered to pick up NV. Can proper/decent shooting mechanics be implemented? Absolutely. They have been before, on a cruder scale. Think back to the original Deus Ex - RPG (defining RPG as a game with a role-playing element where you develop your character through skills, perks, etc) game, great shooting mechanics (for the time). I think those mechanics were further refined with DE:HR. But others have brought up other good examples, such as Mass Effect (not great mechanics, but miles above FA3), and especially, the Sniper Elites.

Decent shooting mechanics have been made before, and I do not see how it would be difficult for Bethesda to merge that into an RPG system, as has been done before.

As lilhasselhoffer said:

If I remember correctly you've played Sniper Elite 3.

Mass Effect RPG focus + Sniper Elite 3 levels of precision control + Fallout aesthetic = win. The formula is simple, it doesn't require VATS to compensate for crappy FPS mechanics, and now that you've seen the equation you want it. VATS is like the elevators from Mass Effect, the slow opening doors of Metroid, and the fog of war in most shooters. It hides substantial technical issues. While you may be able to embrace the obfuscation of flaws, there's no reason that it needs to endure.

That being said, I do think that VATS offers something unique to the FA games, BUT, it needs to be fixed, and the shooting mechanics should not be so bad that players rely on it. VATS should be something that is similar to the Breath Holding in Sniper Elite - not used all the time, not relied upon, not needed, but adds something fun to the game.



Also, I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Bumblebee about VATS for TES, etc. I hated that combat system, I went stealth archer and stayed stealth archer.

 

[Mussels]

VATS could be left alone with tweaking to the perks that made it overpowered, the FPS combat improved and everyone would be happy.

 

[BumbleBee]

Chronicles of Riddick still the gold standard for First Person Stealth/Melee

Starbreeze

http://www.gog.com/game/the_chronicles_of_riddick_assault_on_dark_athena

 

[BumbleBee]

what was that other game that did it well..

Condemned: Criminal Origins? I remember liking that one too.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

So on a less controversial note, anyone else looking forward to some new traits?

The Wild Wasteland was a particular favorite, and hopefully it makes a comeback.

 

[Mussels]

So on a less controversial note, anyone else looking forward to some new traits?

The Wild Wasteland was a particular favorite, and hopefully it makes a comeback.

just started a new game in new vegas ultimate edition (fallout 3 was being a pest in windows 8.1) and that perk was a must have. always loved the out of place comedy, even if i had to google some of the references.

 

[BiggieShady]

So on a less controversial note, anyone else looking forward to some new traits?

The Wild Wasteland was a particular favorite, and hopefully it makes a comeback.

Ah, that one was from New Vegas.
But yeah, it's a must when playing that game.

 

[BumbleBee]

I hope Mysterious Stranger perk comes back. I like the strange ones. I think it's been in every Fallout game.

 

[Schmuckley]

I don't need no VATS

 

[rtwjunkie]

I think Skyrim or TES needs VATS more than Fallout does. First Person Sword/Melee combat is really hard to do.

First person is the only way I play Skyrim or Oblivion. I haven't had any trouble.

 

[WhiteNoise]

Shooting in Fallout 3 & New Vegas is based off a dice roll or some shit is it not? If that is the case then the shooting mechanics are perfect. I never had any issues with it and I rarely used VATS. You don't have to use that system at all if you don't want to but it gives you a moment to plan kinda like the old fallouts. It's handy in that regard.

If I want to shoot a certain class of weapon better I would put points into it and my accuracy would improve. I never had an issue with this.

Hell if they released Fallout 4 on the Fallout 3 engine with no visual improvements at all I would still gladly pay $59.99 for it and I promise you I would love every second of the game. Fallout is that friggen awesome.

 

[BumbleBee]

First person is the only way I play Skyrim or Oblivion. I haven't had any trouble.

the sword/melee combat in TES is clunky. it doesn't "feel" good when I hit an NPC with a sword.... it's like i'm whacking them with a broom or the power attacks that lock you into a moving animation you can't cancel out of feels floaty.

i'm sure people like it but i'm not one of them.

this is how it's done..

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Shooting in Fallout 3 & New Vegas is based off a dice roll or some shit is it not? If that is the case then the shooting mechanics are perfect. I never had any issues with it and I rarely used VATS. You don't have to use that system at all if you don't want to but it gives you a moment to plan kinda like the old fallouts. It's handy in that regard.

If I want to shoot a certain class of weapon better I would put points into it and my accuracy would improve. I never had an issue with this.

Hell if they released Fallout 4 on the Fallout 3 engine with no visual improvements at all I would still gladly pay $59.99 for it and I promise you I would love every second of the game. Fallout is that friggen awesome.

Didn't they already do that? I believe they called it New Vegas.... You're telling me you don't want progress after 7 years?

 

[Mindweaver]

I have to agree with you @AsRock I like VATS. Removing VATS from FO would be like taking the crowbar out of Half-life. I do agree that the shooting mechanics needs improving, but let me keep my VATS as well. hehe I've found that eating Cheetos and drinking Mountain Dew in the middle of a fight is possible with the aid of VATS... Thanks VATS! Don't judge me!.. lol

 

[Frag_Maniac]

actually i have not admitted that non vats aiming sucks... thats your opinion. i used both without any issue.

This,...

"the ability to aim better than i could with the in game combat system"

...makes it sound a lot like you used VATS because the normal shooting system didn't allow you to aim well enough to get reliable kills.

The truth is, there's not many people that like the game that say they DON'T use VATS. Try playing without it, then maybe you'll see that Bee and I are right, it's a bandaid to a flawed shooting system.

The result is crappy shooting coupled with God-like boring insta kills. A black and white scenario that gives the player no middle ground. It's a constant reminder that you're given a paint by numbers sure kill option because the real time shooting mechanic is broken as hell.

That said, this is all a "shooting" match of options until we see how FO4 is made combat wise. Then we'll get a census of how the previous system was received, at least in Bethesda's eyes anyway.

The misconception here is that I am targeting just VATS. It's not VATS I hate so much as their using it BECAUSE the shooting system sucks. I'm sure a lot don't see it that way, but to me it's as obvious as when devs use blurring to hide flawed textures.

 

[brandonwh64]

I hated fallout 3/NV hit registry. That would be one thing I think needs tweaked as well as VATS needs some updating.

 

[WhiteNoise]

Didn't they already do that? I believe they called it New Vegas.... You're telling me you don't want progress after 7 years?

I'm telling anyone reading I'd just be happy to have more Fallout. Good news though...The new engine and ultimately graphics in Fallout 4 DO look better than previous games. So win in my book.

 

[Mindweaver]

This,...

"the ability to aim better than i could with the in game combat system"

...makes it sound a lot like you used VATS because the normal shooting system didn't allow you to aim well enough to get reliable kills.

The truth is, there's not many people that like the game that say they DON'T use VATS. Try playing without it, then maybe you'll see that Bee and I are right, it's a bandaid to a flawed shooting system.

The result is crappy shooting coupled with God-like boring insta kills. A black and white scenario that gives the player no middle ground. It's a constant reminder that you're given a paint by numbers sure kill option because the real time shooting mechanic is broken as hell.

That said, this is all a "shooting" match of options until we see how FO4 is made combat wise. Then we'll get a census of how the previous system was received, at least in Bethesda's eyes anyway.

The misconception here is that I am targeting just VATS. It's not VATS I hate so much as their using it BECAUSE the shooting system sucks. I'm sure a lot don't see it that way, but to me it's as obvious as when devs use blurring to hide flawed textures.

I don't know if I understand you... are you saying you don't like VATS? and why is your directive to turn users against VATS? I can live in this word knowing you like the FPS aspect better than the VATS system, why do you feel so strongly about making everyone believe what you believe? Why must you force your propaganda onto my fellow friend, and mod @Mussels ? I know rage is over taking your body as you read this... but before you black out.. I'm only messing with you buddy! Breath! lol and repeat after me, "In VATS we trust!".. [/goodnight!]

 

[Liquid Cool]

What I wouldn't like is if we only received one choice...and that's why I love the game. I can use VATS to save my butt, or don't use it if I think I have the time to take care of business without it. Same with the 1st/3rd person option. Although...I lean towards 1st person view.

Frankly...In New Vegas, this damn Caesars legion are a bunch of sneaky bastards. They're always popping up when I least expect them and I usually hit VATS as quick as Oh Sh-- comes out of my mouth.

That's where I left off playing it last night...I got my hat handed to me right after I was thinking I made out pretty good with a bunch of thieves up on a cliff. Only to get bushwhacked by a half dozen of these jokers. I'm beginning to regret killing the first bunch of the legion I ran across(Nipton I think)...but I was too engrossed in looking at the shiny they we're wearing and thinking...caps galore.

Took me a week before I realized I could ask people to join in and follow me...so that pretty much shows you how much I know. Not much. Although...I do know this, the game is fun as hell and it's not over in 10 hours.

After viewing the trailer video and reading all of the comments....personally, I'm thinking pre-order and it's my policy to 'not' purchase games over $10 - period.

,

Liquid Cool

 

[Frick]

The only reason to keep VATS in is if they let Obsidian make a real Fallout.

What I absolutely do want to see is cooking/crafting that actually did something and made sense, and an adjustable Hardcore mode (in the Obsidian version obviously, Bethsoft will probably not do that but some modders will come along and tack something ugly and cumbersome on).

 

[newconroer]

Agreed. Although they failed on Skyrim, because it was an after the fact move, I see them going forth in the future with only paid mods through the Steam Workshop. It's also why I will reserve any excitement for the next Elder Scrolls game.

I'll happily take paid mod system if the game doesn't have purposely gutted features (forcing you to buy mods) and they have matchmaking online play like Borderlands. Then, I don't care what they do to i!

I want cat DLC

Don't worry I am certain some nut job out there will make a quick mod that replaces dogs with cats, and even some AI thrown in. Because you know, after the world ends and you're scavenging daily to survive, an ungrateful snobbish feline that disappears for days on end only to come back to eat when it's hungry, then saunters off again then attracts the dogs of hostile bandits - is just what you need to help you keep going.


VATS is fun for cinematic appeal, however the real reason it's been kept around is because it's the only viable way to guarantee you get accuracy from your shots. If they'd upgrade the aiming and firearm mechanics, we may not need VATS anymore.

 

[Black Panther]

Check out the map and locations
http://imgur.com/gallery/lFIxR/new