Intel Skylake De-lidded, Reveals Tiny Die

[MxPhenom 216]

What are those two dies? Is one the iGPU?

The smaller die is the 128MB dedicated ram for the iGPU.

 

[newtekie1]

Stupid cheap TIM again. FU Intel. You charge bloody 400€ for this thing and you can't use a drop of solder on it... *sigh*

It is a lot more than simply a drop of solder. The machinery requires is more complicated and more expensive. It adds time to the assembly process as well. And in the end it isn't necessary. The solder was only added because of netburst's terrible thermal properties. Intel was scrambling to find a way to keep them cool so they wouldn't self destruct, and solder under the IHS was one of the solutions(as well as designing an entire new form factor, remember BTX...).

With the current processors, they aren't at risk of self destructing from heat, they can both handled higher temperatures and are putting out less heat. The only area putting TIM under the IHS would help is the enthusiast market, and you have to face facts, the enthusiast market doesn't even show up as a blip on Intel's customer charts.

 

[Joss]

The smaller die is the 128MB dedicated ram for the iGPU.

Thanks.

 

[Sony Xperia S]

The only people that will "allow" AMD to be competitive again is AMD, no one else is stopping them, in fact AMD have much more incentive to be competitive as they are the ones that are behind in performance terms, it sounds as though you blame everyone but AMD for their performance woe's.

AMD have no access to new manufacturing technologies. Intel has been locking their factories only for themselves. Maybe if AMD pushes a legal in the court over bad monopolistic practices, then Intel will free its manufacturing capacity to the others.

I have seen such examples in my home country. When a given satellite provider bought sports content which was locked only to its own TV channels. The legal authorities decided it wasn't fair and now those channels broadcast for more providers, and respectively for more customers.

 

[ZenZimZaliben]

AMD have no access to new manufacturing technologies. Intel has been locking their factories only for themselves. Maybe if AMD pushes a legal in the court over bad monopolistic practices, then Intel will free its manufacturing capacity to the others.

AMD hasn't fabbed their own stuff since 2009 so that is completely false. All of their fab happens at GlobalFoundries, which is a spin-off from AMD and they now service far more companies than just AMD. Global Foundries is building new facilities for 14nm pretty much exclusively for AMD and Samsung.

 

[Sony Xperia S]

AMD hasn't fabbed their own stuff since 2009 so that is completely false. All of their fab happens at GlobalFoundries, which is a spin-off from AMD and they now service far more companies than just AMD. Global Foundries is building new facilities for 14nm pretty much exclusively for AMD and Samsung.

Better comment on the second part of my post which you conveniently skipped.

Expensive sports content is similar to extremely expensive lithography machines from ASML, plus huge engineering costs...

 

[ZenZimZaliben]

I always try to be as convenient as possible.

Either way. Access to Fab Plants are not the problem regarding AMD's lacking competitiveness.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

Better comment on the second part of my post which you conveniently skipped.

Expensive sports content is similar to extremely expensive lithography machines from ASML, plus huge engineering costs...

He probably skipped it because it has nothing to do with the conversation anyways.

I think its more you just have a very skewed out look on the whole thing. No one is stopping AMD from being successful. Why should Intel give AMD access to their own fabs? That is totally ass backwards thinking when it comes to competition. They are Intel's fabs, of which Intel can do what they want with them. AMD uses TSMC and Global Foundaries.

Intel has left the door wide open for AMD to get back into a competitive state, but its AMD year after year that shoots themselves in the foot.

 

[Sony Xperia S]

They are Intel's fabs, of which Intel can do what they want with them. AMD uses TSMC and Global Foundaries.

No, and that's what I am trying to explain to you. Obviously those partners are not good enough and cannot offer new production capacity in order to AMD stay competitive.

AMD has the full right to turn to the only other fab that is capable - that is Intel..

And I don't see what your problem is - look at Apple and Samsung, not the same situation with different outcome?

Just admit that you are wrong.

 

[64K]

No, and that's what I am trying to explain to you. Obviously those partners are not good enough and cannot offer new production capacity in order to AMD stay competitive.

AMD has the full right to turn to the only other fab that is capable - that is Intel..

And I don't see what your problem is - look at Apple and Samsung, not the same situation with different outcome?

Just admit that you are wrong.

Do you think that Intel owes AMD some help? If the roles were reversed and AMD was on top then would they be looking for ways to help Intel? That's not how businesses work. You don't help your competition to succeed.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

No, and that's what I am trying to explain to you. Obviously those partners are not good enough and cannot offer new production capacity in order to AMD stay competitive.

AMD has the full right to turn to the only other fab that is capable - that is Intel..

And I don't see what your problem is - look at Apple and Samsung, not the same situation with different outcome?

Just admit that you are wrong.

Intel is AMD's competitor, why is that so damn hard for you to understand? You basic understanding of competition is so flawed. Intel will never open their fabs up to AMD. Its their fabs for their own products. Like @ZenZimZaliben said, AMDs access to fabs is not their problem. Its really not.

Also Samsung has their own fabs too. Which is why some people think if Samsung bought AMD, it would be a good thing for AMD all together. Have access to millions in R&D and massive fabs.

Apple uses Samsung and TSMC fabs.

Do you think that Intel owes AMD some help? If the roles were reversed and AMD was on top then would they be looking for ways to help Intel? That's not how businesses work. You don't help your competition to succeed.

^^This

 

[rtwjunkie]

Do you think that Intel owes AMD some help? If the roles were reversed and AMD was on top then would they be looking for ways to help Intel? That's not how businesses work. You don't help your competition to succeed.

You are wasting your time trying to explain the free competitive market to Sony.

 

[Agreemenot]

The only people that will "allow" AMD to be competitive again is AMD, no one else is stopping them, in fact AMD have much more incentive to be competitive as they are the ones that are behind in performance terms, it sounds as though you blame everyone but AMD for their performance woe's.

So Microsoft cant decide which and whom it can favor then? Or sites like Atech?

 

[rtwjunkie]

So Microsoft cant decide which and whom it can favor then? Or sites like Atech?

It has nothing to do with MS, who btw cut a huge deal with them for the Xbone. It has everything to do with a multitude of poor business practices on AMD's part. They have been their own worst enemy. I do suggest you do some reading on it, there's plenty of info everywhere on their history.

 

[Tatty_Two]

So Microsoft cant decide which and whom it can favor then? Or sites like Atech?

AMD have suffered in the last 5 years (especially) for a number of reasons, your comment may well be a contributing factor but AMD chooses which Fab to go with, if Intel's is better as Sony has said then perhaps that's because Intel have made the investment so their innovations can be served and delivered, from what I have seen and read there has just been a lack of investment and innovation on AMD's part, yes that may be because of outside factors too but at the end of the day a successful business led well gets over these barriers, I am no Intel fanboi, I would agree that my last 6 CPU's have been Intel but I can also say my last 6 GPU's have been AMD, people are just frustrated at the lack of competition, probably as much as Sony is, they just don't appear to blame everyone else but AMD for it, everyone (less Intel) probably thinks that the lack of competition is a bad thing, me included.

 

[Agreemenot]

AMD have suffered in the last 5 years (especially) for a number of reasons, your comment may well be a contributing factor but AMD chooses which Fab to go with, if Intel's is better as Sony has said then perhaps that's because Intel have made the investment so their innovations can be served and delivered, from what I have seen and read there has just been a lack of investment and innovation on AMD's part, yes that may be because of outside factors too but at the end of the day a successful business led well gets over these barriers, I am no Intel fanboi, I would agree that my last 6 CPU's have been Intel but I can also say my last 6 GPU's have been AMD, people are just frustrated at the lack of competition, probably as much as Sony is, they just don't appear to blame everyone else but AMD for it, everyone (less Intel) probably thinks that the lack of competition is a bad thing, me included.

Maybe. But how can AMD "invest" when it doesn't get the funds thru sales as Intel denies them that thru uncompetitive practices? Like during P4vsA64 times. Not a matter of simply making sales but denying them too. Which is easier if you got more funds and a dominant position.

Another is with Intel bundling their CPUs with a GPU so that neither the lower end cards from either AMD or Nvidia may get sold in greater numbers.

Another one is also to enable sales. Like having "your" consumers spend more and more often.
Like with the recent Skylake where you have some reviews including a "benchmark" Dolphin, that shows 60-70% diff. between "Sandy Bridge" and Skylake where they also state that "Sandy Bridge, Your Time Is Up" and such. This certainly has nothing to do with that that those with a SB PC should feel/think their system is not adequate enough any longer, that they are dated, that they are behind and such should change = buy, right? Psychological rather than rational(relevancy).

Not merely a "business/corporate" issue but a consumer issue as well. Foolish consumers, serventile consumers and consumers licking corporate ass, where they cover for them helps them as well i think. For me its not a AMD vs Intel thing, but a Consumer/user/purchaser one.

 

[AsRock]

Simply put, the TIM is fine. I run 4.8 GHz, pulling just 100W at high load, and the chip hits 75c under a Corsair H90.

The fact I can push 100W+ through that tiny chip in and of itself is pretty amazing.

Tim maybe fine but solder would be a lot better and as seen as the price you pay you should get solder .

 

[rtwjunkie]

@Agreemenot which uncompetitive practices does Intel engage in? You mention P4 times, AMD was riding high then and Intels was shit.

As to bundling a gpu in the cpu, that's what AMD's APU are, and they were doing it first. Intel jist played catchup. Because Intel is a well-run company, the made up for lost time quickly.

You're right about AMD not having much for funds to do R&D, marketing, etc. But it's not Intel's fault. Intel has merely done what every company's shareholders demand: Make money. Have you read up on why AMD is where they are now? They have done it to themselves. Bad decision, bad strategy, bad management.

Can they recover? Maybe, with alot of effort, but they are going to have to do it themselves. I hope they do, because no company is ever going to help a competitor, and we need them to compete fiercely.

 

[cadaveca]

Tim maybe fine but solder would be a lot better and as seen as the price you pay you should get solder .

Meh, what they provided, from my testing with my own chip, seems more than adequate, so it seems like nit-picking to me. So, Intel is making lots of money, thanks to a thin substrate, and small die. It also means that they can have better control of quality, since the small size lets them capitalize on wafer real estate. Solder would make it impossible to change the TIM for those that chose to do so, or want direct-die cooling for extreme overclocking. Seems like the right choice, to me.

 

[R-T-B]

Why is solder on 400€ CPU a shocker? In the past ALL CPU's had soldered dies to the IHS. And now it's some sort of exotic?

I need to switch because my system is acting funny for the past few months and I just don't have the nerves anymore to deal with it. I'll try few more things today, but I think I'll just switch in September when supply of 6700k becomes a bit more steady and price hopefully drops a bit as well...

If there were no general issues I'd just stay with i7 920...

Yeah, what actually made me switch man was the obscene motherboard prices and a slightly crazy onboard audio. It seemed to go batshit insane in it's last few months. Fortunately the buyer did not care.

Can't wait to see how many cores this shrink will bring to the Xeons. I'm predicting atleast 28

Wasn't there already a 20+ core Haswell Xeon?

Yes, remember the last soldered ones, the Sandy Bridge CPU's? And not overpriced either, so I don't think it's that much of a cost issue on their part. I think it's not having serious competition, so why spend money for great heat dissipation when they can get by with just "good"?

Hopefully when AMD releases real competitive chip, Intel hasn't forgotten how to solder.

Haswell-E is soldered.

@RejZoR, if I were you I'd quit waiting and buy the lower end Haswell-E (5820k). It doesn't clock as well as a 920 but it ain't bad and it'll give you 6 nice, soldered cores if nothing else.

 

[ShockG]

1. Solder was used on Sandy-Bridge that's why you could run 5GHz all day etc.
2. Solder can be used on all CPUs, it has nothing to do with complexity at all.
3. The issue with the TIM is that it will crack or rather stop being able to transfer heat effectively after a few LN2 sessions. That's why you ca read -115'C on the IHS but +11'C real CPU die temp. At that point the CPU becomes useless for pretty much everything as even stock clocks and VID will run into upwards of 90'C.

4. INTEL has been talking overclocking to us for a while, even more so since 2013. All initiatives and even in the press decks they highlight overclocking. By design in fact, SKylake-S K SKUs was made to allow more overclocking (hence the step-less bclk, more memory ratios, more voltage control, same power plane for Uncore/CPu clock etc.)
The TIM used is in contrast to this ideology and message of promoting extreme OC. The situation is worse than with Haswell or any other CPU before because this time. You will not make 6GHz with a CPU that has not had the TIM replaced. If you do, the CPU throttles and performance tanks (6.3GHz performs like 5.4GHz for instance)

5. For air cooling, the current solution is probably fine for most people, but once you go XOC, it is utterly useless.

 

[Octopuss]

I don't see what's the big deal anyway. The CPUs (the so called enthusiast ones in general) perform perfectly fine even overclocked under decent coolers. Delidding is a process that takes ten minutes maximum and that's if you are a lame idiot like myself.
Bottom line is: if noone tried to delid them you wouldn't know what the hell is under the IHS and would happily use them without moaning and deal with the temperatures.
And besides, extreme overclocking is way overrated. Who gives a shit about LN overclocking? Do you use a PC like that all day long?

 

[radrok]

Dave is right tho, I will also add that you will reach unsafe voltages for the lithography way before reaching thermal limits, provided you use decent cooling.

I have degraded a 3930K by using 1.5v daily and that's 32nm, imagine what it's gonna happen to a node this small with high voltages daily.

 

[Aquinus]

I have degraded a 3930K by using 1.5v daily and that's 32nm, imagine what it's gonna happen to a node this small with high voltages daily.

It could have been voltages or BIOS but, I find that it's a lot harder to maintain a 125Mhz BCLK on my 3820 now so I don't really try anymore. I never ran it at 1.5v though, I did run it at 1.4v for a while though when it was running 4.65Ghz with the strap. It's not like I let it run hot either.

 

[radrok]

I'm pretty sure the only way to run a hefty overclock without over time issues is phase change, but that's unpractical especially because it sounds like a fridge on steroids.