• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.
  • The forums have been upgraded with support for dark mode. By default it will follow the setting on your system/browser. You may override it by scrolling to the end of the page and clicking the gears icon.

NVIDIA Stares at Sales Ban as US-ITC Rules in Samsung's Favor in Patent Dispute

NVIDIA won't get banned. If it goes against them in the end they'll just pay Samsung off.
 
And how is this an Nvidia or even AMD thing? What you can or can't do in a game is limited to the game engine used. Game engines are used by studios to make games. Some develop their own, and some use a licensed engine.

These problems with games are directly related to both AMD and Nvidia. Game developers can't do a lot in terms of writing efficient simulation and AI code. Why? Well... Intel and AMD CPUs are not well suited for the kind of processing these workloads require. Those are thread-heavy, date-heavy workloads (not all AI workloads). If you're familiar with AI coding, which is mostly done in Prolog, Most of the goals (execution targets) can be split into hundreds of simultaneous executions. The same goes for physics simulation.

Just to be clear here, it's not the coding part where the problem is, it's the compilers/runtime interpreters that aren't optimized to spit out properly-threaded optimized machine code. This is where AMD and Nvidia can contribute. Instead of fighting among each other (especially Nvidia), they can collaborate on writing proper GPU/HSA optimized compilers for these languages.
I, for one, am tired of playing this dull scripted games. Been playhing Hearthstone lately, which is a alright game overall, but the action/adventure/RPG games are plain boring!
 
Neither are saints, but I hope Nvidia gets it's ass handed to them on this one.
 
Neither are saints, but I hope Nvidia gets it's ass handed to them on this one.
money is cheap to these guys, and going under would only make things worse. a fit sentence, imo, would be nbadia ceo having to put up a video on the sites main page saying hes sorry for trying to bite samdung in the ass, "sry bro, i thought u was chocolate, wont happen again. hug? no homo". no cash traded and they will think twice next time (like little kids)
 
A company that goes this far to profit is not an ordinary company. The underhanded tactics they use to "make profit" are excused by "responding to their shareholders". This is the same company that writes some code for some effects, compiles it, and sells the compiled code to game developers. Star Wars Battlefront, a game that doesn't use any proprietary Nvidia "effects", has better visuals and more realistic physics than any game that does.

They can make more money by improving video games. 99% of games on Steam are unplayable. They have mediocre visuals, crappy physics, and dumb AI. These games are boring!

What nVidia does is to try and stifle competition rather than truly make a superior product. They put too much effort into unfairly tilting the playing field rather than honest competition that benefits the market, their customers, and in the end themselves.

in my opinion its should be 5 for companies or legal entities.
The problem with that is it often takes that long to bring the idea to market.
 
I'm so happy patents expire in 20 years or less.

It is funny as hell though, nVidia pocked the giant bear and got slapped.

Samsung just firing back is all shame the patents running out int his case.
 
It seems today companies make money with Lawsuits rather than making good products...
 
What nVidia does is to try and stifle competition rather than truly make a superior product.

How so? They clearly made a superior product for DX11 with Maxwell. Maxwell was designed to milk every last drop of DX11 performance out of it. Why, you ask. When DX12 was on the horizon? Wasn't that shortsighted? No, it wasn't.

See, AMD had to make its current gen ready for DX12, and take a short-term hit on DX11 because their R&D budget is pennies compared to Nvidia's

Nvidia, with much more R&D budget, and correctly guessing there would not be many DirectX 12 games until sometime in 2016 set that year for Pascal, its DirectX 12 architecture, and released Maxwell in the meantime to take advantage of all DirectX 11 had to offer.

So, to say they don't innovate and provide a superior product is pure hogwash. Maxwell has been a complete DX11 success.

Both companies try to do this, but within different limitations.
 
Last edited:
It seems today companies make money with Lawsuits rather than making good products...
It's nothing new, but it certainly is troubling.
 
So, interesting thoughts but it seems as though the surface level is all anyone is hitting.


Let's dive farther. US Patent law is seriously screwed up. We can start with a bit of history, substantially abridged, to cover why.

Patent law historically was designed for manufactured goods. Designs could be capitalized upon, and whenever the creator died their IP would be used by their successors to move things forward. This design worked great when the US was a manufacturer, but we transitioned to an IP culture.

Between Disney spearheading massively extended copyright terms, and the silicon revolution, we primed ourselves for the current IP war. Disney successfully fought to have their IP rights extended dramatically, to protect characters like Mickey Mouse from entering the public domain. This allowed the entertainment giant to flourish, because anything they bought up could make them money almost forever without any fresh investments. Likewise, the computer revolution delivered so many new ideas that the patent office could not keep up. Patents were issued for idiotic things, which were so vague as to cover basic computer functions.

Fast forward to today. We've got people buying companies for their IP. In order to maintain the value of their IP they're obliged to shut down anyone they find infringing upon it, lest they lose the IP monopoly. Trolls discovered this rather substantial loop hole, and decided that lawsuits represented little investment from their side to potentially get huge cash settlements to "license" their IP. What we have now is decades worth of these troll suites crippling the justice system, and companies functionally being extorted over poorly issued patents.



How does this sit with Nvidia and Samsung? Nvidia's lawyers probably saw what they saw as competition, which could be quashed without going to battle on the market. Samsung responded to the legal claim, eventually counter-suing as a way to penalize Nvidia for costing them time and resources in legal battles. Samsung and Nvidia both lose out on this, as the only winners are the lawyers getting those huge retainers to keep the IP battles out of the business.

Anyone believing Samsung is somehow the "good guys" here is mistaken. Their business practices are demonstrably monsterous. Anyone believing Nvidia is uniquely vile should really consider that they're playing a broken system to their advantage. This is an issue brought about by crappy government. While I love my country, the idiots at the helm should be feeding the tree of liberty, if you get my modified quote's meaning...
 
The ongoing patent dispute between NVIDIA and Samsung over mobile SoC patents, in which NVIDIA fired the first shot, is not going to well for team-green.

At all the lovely, epeen-amped-up members who are having a "fail-sauce moment," crying about NVidia Graphic Cards being banned because of this patent dispute, this has nothing to do with NVidia Discrete Graphic Cards. The patent dispute has to do with NVidia trying to get a foot into the Cellphone/Tablet Market with it's Tegra SoC, and it is less to do with the Visual Processing part of the market for PC Gaming and Rendering. So there's no need to panic, commit suicide, or hide in your bombshelter. Your upcoming Flagship Graphic Cards (2016 and beyond) will be shipped on time...

@ Humansmoke and Xzibit, I'm not even going to get involved with your little dance. Merry Christmas to the both of you.


Oh the irony surrounding this thread!

Well, that's what they get for picking a fight with someone that big more than happy to return fire. Not like this will be that big of a deal in the long run anyway so its just a lesson to them. Oh well, going to be interesting what happens after this.

It's like a Christmas Special that makes you want to chuckle and shake your head at the same time. I feel sorry for NVidia, but I can't agree that they didn't deserve this. Like I agree that Samsung is a horrible company, but NVidia's patent lawsuit is just asking for trouble from a bigger, Korean Fish.


Battle Front looks considerably better than any game I've played so far, but it suffers from the same limitations as other games when it comes to how interactive and engaging the virtual environment is. The level of engagement in these games are primarily the same. Things have barely changed since the Original Half Life Game from 15 years ago. We have the same physic simulation in games, give or take a few scripted effects.

1. NVidia has less to do with the coding of the game, and more to do with the coding of the visual processing. There's a big difference.
2. Limitations of the game comes less from the visual processing, or more from the Game Engine itself aka engine coding.
3. NVidia and AMD don't focus so much on producing Game Engines as a product. This either comes from the Game Producers themselves, ported from 3DMax, or company-made Engines like Sony Created ForgeLite, EA's BF series uses Frostbite, Ubisoft uses Anvil or Snowdrop Engine, Crytek uses the CryEngine.
4. The limitations that you're referring too comes from writing codes to loading assets and rigging models, launching particle, storing things to memory, execute loops, etc... It's all on the coder, or the coders who are wasting their lives away coding the game, and sometimes it has to do with the way assets are being rendered out in the building stages.
5. A PC Game like the new Battlefront isn't the future, imo. Battlefront is like a quick sale for big $$$$ with a very small shelf life with all the pretty, updated features in the graphic department. The future is going to be more interactive MMOs with better graphics. Add VR to it with some VR gloves and a special chair that houses a plastic poop-sock underneath, and that's the future. Who needs RL when you have VR World of Warcraft 3.0-Life that you can interact 24/7 for $59.99 per month sub... Get your XXX Female Bloodelf Action on, VR Style while you have a special straw that feeds you nutrients and an Asus made, poly-awesome catheter for those long nights, you can play the game in a fully immersive, PC-universe. The future after that is simple: Ghost in the Shell....

No, I'm not trolling. Sadly....
 
Two things:
1) patents are granted for 20 years and design patents are granted for 15 years (used to be 14)
2) patents, the longer they are kept, get prohibitively expensive to maintain for the full aforementioned duration. The initial filing isn't too bad but each time it comes up for renewal, it gets more expensive.

Who profits? USPTO itself. It has thousands of patent lawyers and support staff. It also makes a tidy net profit off of the fees. The Clinton administration actually took 10% of USPTO profits and contributed it to the federal coffers.

USPTO also has a massive backlog of patents to process.
 
Two things:
1) patents are granted for 20 years and design patents are granted for 15 years (used to be 14)
2) patents, the longer they are kept, get prohibitively expensive to maintain for the full aforementioned duration. The initial filing isn't too bad but each time it comes up for renewal, it gets more expensive.

Who profits? USPTO itself. It has thousands of patent lawyers and support staff. It also makes a tidy net profit off of the fees. The Clinton administration actually took 10% of USPTO profits and contributed it to the federal coffers.

USPTO also has a massive backlog of patents to process.

Agreed, the brief description misses an absolutely huge amount of the details. This is why I started with that disclaimer.

To expand:

Our current filing costs are listed here:
http://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-resources/fees-and-payment/uspto-fee-schedule
Please note that the fees are a few thousand dollars at most, chump change for a company with either Samsung or Nvidia's resources. Realistically, the lawyers are probably paid more for showing up in the court room (not arguing, simply showing up) than the patent costs.

The idiot's guide to patents can be found here:
http://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-information-concerning-patents#heading-25

What I find most interesting is that a patent isn't worth the paper it's printed on until defended in court. For those unwilling to read through all of the above link:
"The exact nature of the right conferred must be carefully distinguished, and the key is in the words 'right to exclude' in the phrase just quoted. The patent does not grant the right to make, use, offer for sale or sell or import the invention but only grants the exclusive nature of the right. Any person is ordinarily free to make, use, offer for sale or sell or import anything he or she pleases, and a grant from the government is not necessary. The patent only grants the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale or selling or importing the invention. Since the patent does not grant the right to make, use, offer for sale, or sell, or import the invention, the patentee’s own right to do so is dependent upon the rights of others and whatever general laws might be applicable. A patentee, merely because he or she has received a patent for an invention, is not thereby authorized to make, use, offer for sale, or sell, or import the invention if doing so would violate any law."

And now the fun part. Patents currently last for 20 years, but have been increasing along with Copyright. Prior to 1995 patents offered 17 years of monopoly. Being real here, Disney throwing around their weight to change copyright law influences patent law. It's difficult to not see the URAA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_Round_Agreements_Act) impacting patent law just as much as copyright. That's the point I'm trying to make, but thirty pages of legal text is asking for far too much reading from 99% of people. When Mickey is about to be put into the public domain again (in about 7 years) I'm betting both Copyright and Patent terms will be extended again, if not sooner (in response to concerns over China). An interesting synopsis can be found here: http://artlawjournal.com/mickey-mouse-keeps-changing-copyright-law/

As to design patents, I don't see how they apply. It is an interesting example of the government being too lazy to fix their own documentation (the second link listed 14 years, but another link on the same site agrees with you http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s1505.html), but aesthetic design isn't up for discussion here. Even if it was, they'd have to prove aesthetics were a concern.



Let's also examine the performance of the USPTO (data from http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/us_stat.htm):
upload_2015-12-26_2-22-31.png

The USPTO has had a dramatic increase (about 500% in 30 years) in filings. They've increased issuance by about 200%. That means they're rejecting about 500% more patents (about 50,000 in 1984 and 300,000 in 2014).

I'm having problems digging up anything but yearly reports, but let's delve into the 2007 USPTO budget performance report (I use this year, because it's prior to the 2008 collapse and I can find the report: http://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/...visory/reports/ppac_2007annualrpt.pdf#page=10).

The math here is simple. They took in 1.783 billion in revenue. They paid out 1.766 billion. That means their net profit for 2007 was 0.017 billion, or $17 million. $17 million is a joke. I'd be hard pressed to see where the USPTO is a profit making engine, as you seem to want to believe. What I see is a governmental body swamped in paperwork, willing to rubber stamp patents just to get them out the door. Heck, the linked article has pages dedicated to complaining about patent applications which are thousands of pages long.

What I see here is a broken system, that failed to evolve into the digital age. It is now dragging down the legal system, and it being attacked from both the copyright and patent monopolies. Nvidia and Samsung aren't evil or good, they're riding a sinking ship down to try and murder one another for a lifeboat position.
 

Attachments

  • upload_2015-12-26_2-19-10.png
    upload_2015-12-26_2-19-10.png
    8.1 KB · Views: 347
Apple v. Samsung was over a design patent. Most tech patents fall into the design category.
 
TPU, you guys should have put up some fun news to yell about before the Christmas break! :laugh:
 
Apple v. Samsung was over a design patent. Most tech patents fall into the design category.

Nvidia versus Samsung is what we're talking about, hence why I said the matter is of little concern. Apple has most of its patents in the design category, given that they are a company selling aesthetics. If this involved Apple I'd be apt to agree with you 100%, but Nvidia has relatively little in the design arena.
 
Elaborate. I'm pretty sure they always had a responsibility to their shareholders.

And man, people have no idea how to treat the term "patent-troll", do they?
Patent-troll is a company that collects patents with the intent to extort money from them one way or another. Meaning they don't produce anything that validates their holding of said patents, the patents are only there to licenses and lawsuits.

Tech company use patents to sue each other and settle out of court as a form of negotiation for future deals for some reason, i think it's a way to justify their probably expensive legal teams. Not quite a patent troll but idiotic in it's own right. Of course they do have legitimate patent lawsuits but most seem to proceeded deals which don't always involve the patents themselves.
 
How so? They clearly made a superior product for DX11 with Maxwell. Maxwell was designed to milk every last drop of DX11 performance out of it. Why, you ask. When DX12 was on the horizon? Wasn't that shortsighted? No, it wasn't.

See, AMD had to make its current gen ready for DX12, and take a short-term hit on DX11 because their R&D budget is pennies compared to Nvidia's

Nvidia, with much more R&D budget, and correctly guessing there would not be many DirectX 12 games until sometime in 2016 set that year for Pascal, its DirectX 12 architecture, and released Maxwell in the meantime to take advantage of all DirectX 11 had to offer.

So, to say they don't innovate and provide a superior product is pure hogwash. Maxwell has been a complete DX11 success.

Both companies try to do this, but within different limitations.

nVidia doesn't guess. They use their money to control it. AMD tries to innovate but the other more powerful players pull the strings.
 
@Relayer, Clearly I'm talking to a fanboy, as opposed to a logical and rational thinker. If you were logical and rational, you'd be putting intelligent thoughts together to realize that if Nvidia could control everything, they wouldn't have paid to be in 2nd place in the DX12 race.

A truly intelligent person would be able to look at it all objectively and see that AMD and Nvidia both innovate and try to bring the best product possible to the market.
 
@Relayer, Clearly I'm talking to a fanboy, as opposed to a logical and rational thinker. If you were logical and rational, you'd be putting intelligent thoughts together to realize that if Nvidia could control everything, they wouldn't have paid to be in 2nd place in the DX12 race.

A truly intelligent person would be able to look at it all objectively and see that AMD and Nvidia both innovate and try to bring the best product possible to the market.

Ah, name calling and insults are a great way to stifle any exchange. Well done.
 
Ah, name calling and insults are a great way to stifle any exchange. Well done.

Don't read too well do you? Please report my message, that's how confident I am in my carefully worded text that no insults were directly given.
 
Some people just want to see nVidia burn in the name of competition. The same people that say they support AMD in the name of the same competition. Where's the logic in that?

Other then that, if you poke the bear, you might get the claw.

And to those that support Samsung in this, thinking that they represent the lesser evil, maybe you should all know that they have a very lucrative weapons division (as in f-ing tanks and other self propelled artillery vehicles). And that's the part that's not classified, Samsung is 20-25% of everything Korea has. You have no idea what that means. Someone who supports a company that produces weapons of war in the name of "competition" should really get a taste of what war is.

I'm not saying that Samsung doesn't have their merits, I'm just pointing out things that fanboys should maybe google every now and then. I'm not even talking to the Samsung fanboys.

And I really don't get this AMD innovation thing. Where is this coming from? How is AMD innovating and nVidia does not, since they are pretty much on equal footing.
 
@Relayer, Clearly I'm talking to a fanboy, as opposed to a logical and rational thinker. If you were logical and rational, you'd be putting intelligent thoughts together to realize that if Nvidia could control everything, they wouldn't have paid to be in 2nd place in the DX12 race.

A truly intelligent person would be able to look at it all objectively and see that AMD and Nvidia both innovate and try to bring the best product possible to the market.
I don't think they lost as the DX12 race hasn't even begun. Pascal will be out before Arctic Islands and if history plays any favor I have a feeling we all know will win in the performance segment. On that note, I don't expect any true DX12 games to properly utilize the API to be released next year. Only the ones that partially utilize it like we had with the beginnings of DX11. I hope I'm wrong, but only time will tell.
 
What nVidia does is to try and stifle competition rather than truly make a superior product. They put too much effort into unfairly tilting the playing field rather than honest competition that benefits the market, their customers, and in the end themselves. The problem with that is it often takes that long to bring the idea to market.

i meant after the finished product is brought to the market. imo that small period would force companies to remain on the edge of technological advancement. the present situation creates what you described nvidia does. just my two cents..
 
Back
Top