installing system on non-conductive material

[karklinskarlis1993]

hello,

i was wondering, do you need any standoffs if you are installing system on open-case type on desk on top of non-conductive material? for example, can you use as base this material as picture in bottom?

i need to install with this method for testing purposes..

thanks

 

[natr0n]

The box is fine it's more stable than the plastic.

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

That material is fine. I use a few pieces of Lego too. just to allow some air under the board.

 

[karklinskarlis1993]

so, do i need standoffs if i use on motherboard box? or i can let it sit on box by itself?

 

[CAPSLOCKSTUCK]

you can sit it on the box........many people do just that.


Is this your actual problem?
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/shorting-out-indications.229586/

 

[karklinskarlis1993]

Thank you guys, always fast responds!

 

[karklinskarlis1993]

you can sit it on the box........many people do just that.


Is this your actual problem?
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/shorting-out-indications.229586/

i am feeling like my case at the moment is somehow touching backplate as i use this really huge motherboard in standart ATX case.
so i will try to take it all apart and build on desk. sometimes its just stuck on boot on error code 60,. i have tried several different rams so i assume, its not memory fault. i am guessing its shorting out. psu is ax series and really solid one, so it cant be this problem.

and i am crossing out option that motherboard memory slots are faulty. all of 16 slots are reading memory correctly.

so the last thing i can think of is short circuit

if you are interested there is original post
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...g-booting-error-b0-or-60.229489/#post-3584138
, i have asked you guys earlier, noone replied though.

 

[micropage7]

i am feeling like my case at the moment is somehow touching backplate as i use this really huge motherboard in standart ATX case.
so i will try to take it all apart and build on desk. sometimes its just stuck on boot on error code 60,. i have tried several different rams so i assume, its not memory fault. i am guessing its shorting out. psu is ax series and really solid one, so it cant be this problem.

and i am crossing out option that motherboard memory slots are faulty. all of 16 slots are reading memory correctly.

so the last thing i can think of is short circuit

if you are interested there is original post
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...g-booting-error-b0-or-60.229489/#post-3584138
, i have asked you guys earlier, noone replied though.

best way to sort it out is placing the board off from the case then re test it
i always put several layers of electrical tape on motherboard tray to prevent any short circuit

 

[Sasqui]

Stanard operating proceedure for any new build of mine is put the motherboard together and stress test on a large wooden cutting board or table. I've done no less than a half dozen that way without a single problem. After everything checks out, it then goes into a case.

 

[Jetster]

Yep, no standoffs needed. Pre assemble testing is recommended before you put it in a case.

Don't set it on the anti static bag to test it. Use the Box, cutting board, wood desk all are fine

Also watch the CPU pins. They are very fragile

 

[Bill_Bright]

Do NOT use the motherboard box! Use a large, unfinished cutting/bread board, or plain cardboard. The inks and labels used on motherboard and other printed boxes often contain metallic or other components that may be conductive. That would be bad. Even the finishes used on many table tops can be conductive. So plain unfinished wood or cardboard is what you want to use.

You say you are installing this. That suggest a "permanent" setup, not just something for testing or "temporary" assembly. If this is a permanent installation then you still need standoffs. Understand that standoffs when used in a case are NOT just to ensure the electrical contacts under the board are not shorted out on the case. The standoffs also ensure there is room for sufficient ventilation under the board too to prevent heat build-up.

Don't set it on the anti static bag to test it.

This is so critical! So many believe these bags are perfect for this use because they are "anti-static" bags. In most cases, that could not be further from the truth.

These bags are designed to ensure no static reaches the INSIDE of the bag where the ESD (electro-static discharge) sensitive devices are. Therefore, many of these bags are designed with highly conductive "outer" layers to ensure any static charge encountered remains on that outer layer. Think "skin effect" - the characteristic of electricity that protects you from lightning when you are sitting in your car or while flying in an air plane. Electricity naturally wants to flow on the outer edge of conductors.

 

[peche]

sit the components over rubber or thick plastic... i have never trusted motherboard box, antistatic bags or wodden, its better to sit that crap on rubber....

 

[Papahyooie]

Do NOT use the motherboard box! Use a large, unfinished cutting/bread board, or plain cardboard. The inks and labels used on motherboard and other printed boxes often contain metallic or other components that may be conductive. That would be bad. Even the finishes used on many table tops can be conductive. So plain unfinished wood or cardboard is what you want to use.

You say you are installing this. That suggest a "permanent" setup, not just something for testing or "temporary" assembly. If this is a permanent installation then you still need standoffs. Understand that standoffs when used in a case are NOT just to ensure the electrical contacts under the board are not shorted out on the case. The standoffs also ensure there is room for sufficient ventilation under the board too to prevent heat build-up.
This is so critical! So many believe these bags are perfect for this use because they are "anti-static" bags. In most cases, that could not be further from the truth.

These bags are designed to ensure no static reaches the INSIDE of the bag where the ESD (electro-static discharge) sensitive devices are. Therefore, many of these bags are designed with highly conductive "outer" layers to ensure any static charge encountered remains on that outer layer. Think "skin effect" - the characteristic of electricity that protects you from lightning when you are sitting in your car or while flying in an air plane. Electricity naturally wants to flow on the outer edge of conductors.

That's a bit dramatic, don't you think? I guess it's *possible* for the motherboard to short out on ink or a finished table, but it would take way higher voltage than exists in a motherboard for it to actually short. Hell, if you push enough voltage, even unfinished wood is conductive.

Good call on the anti-static bags though.

OP, i've sat tons of motherboards on the cardboard box. Never seen a problem.

 

[Jetster]

CAPSLOCKSTUCK suggested a few pieces a lego's Someone needs to build a Lego test bench

As far as a short caused by contact with a conductive surface:

Usually it will hang during boot or get into a boot loop where it will continue to restart itself
But it can be worse.

 

[eidairaman1]

Ive seen those bags cause shorts so NO, use anon metallic box. Also cases are metal for grounding purposes.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Ive seen those bags cause shorts so NO, use anon metallic box. Also cases are metal for grounding purposes.

Exactly this the stand of pillars intentionally ground the case to the motherboard and hence PSU ground , this is clearly for safety reasons so any short remains within the device or terminates it, to insulate the board from the case creates a possible safety issue in the event that something shorts to the case alone it would then be able to discharge across the next person who touches it , inadvertently grounding it.
To do so correctly would require true double isolation and the case properly earthing.
In short brown cardboard for prebuilding.
Definitely use standoffs in the case, watch for alignment of them as a badly aligned one(in wrong place) will short the mobo out and isolating it's a bad idea.
Esd bags are mildly conductive so as to gently equalise the charge through a grounding resistor in a correct esd environment, so everything is at the same charge state because it's the rapid flow of high kv static discharge across components that causes early failure.

 

[Bill_Bright]

That's a bit dramatic, don't you think?

Gee whiz! Feel good about yourself now?

What do you want me to say? "Oh please, Sir! Don't use the motherboard box. You might accidently short your motherboard".

Your comments about unfinished wood is more dramatic than anything I said. Unless sopping wet, unfinished wood is an extremely poor conductor of electricity. This is exactly why OSHA approved safety canes/hooks used in electronics repair facilities are often made of unfinished wood.

The fact remains - some inks used in printing can easily conduct electricity. Enough to cause permanent damage to a motherboard? Not likely - just as shorting a board through an extra case stand-off rarely causes permanent damage because of the low voltages and current used. But hardly the point here when testing to see if the board works, huh, hyooie? Especially considering we know for a fact, lead and other conductive materials are used in printing ink (notably reds and yellows), and often at high, even toxic level in some less regulated countries where these boxes are printed.

OP, i've sat tons of motherboards on the cardboard box.

Pros don't.

If you don't have a large enough wooden cutting board or plain cardboard you can use, then I recommend opening up/breaking down the motherboard box and set the motherboard in the interior side of the box. This is often just plain white (bleached) cardboard and non-conductive.

Definitely use standoffs in the case, watch for alignment of them as a badly aligned one(in wrong place) will short the mobo out and isolating it's a bad idea.

Inserting an extra standoff is actually a pretty common newbie (and distracted experienced user!)mistake. Cases are designed to support 1000s of motherboards. And while the ATX form factor standard dictates where motherboard mounting holes can be, it does not dictate where they will be used. So it is not uncommon for cases to have standoff mounting holes where there is no corresponding motherboard mounting hole - resulting in the motherboard being shorted out.

As I noted above, this rarely results in any permanent damage - simply remove the extra standoff and all is (most of the time) good. But permanent damage could happen so double or even triple checking standoff locations before mounting the motherboard is essential.

You don't want to leave any required standoff out either. Besides ensuring good ventilation under the board, the multiple standoffs ensure a "common" ground through the motherboard, but also provide support when inserting (pushing down on) RAM and cable connectors.

 

[Papahyooie]

Gee whiz! Feel good about yourself now?

What do you want me to say? "Oh please, Sir! Don't use the motherboard box. You might accidently short your motherboard".

Your comments about unfinished wood is more dramatic than anything I said. Unless sopping wet, unfinished wood is an extremely poor conductor of electricity. This is exactly why OSHA approved safety canes/hooks used in electronics repair facilities are often made of unfinished wood.

The fact remains - some inks used in printing can easily conduct electricity. Enough to cause permanent damage to a motherboard? Not likely - just as shorting a board through an extra case stand-off rarely causes permanent damage because of the low voltages and current used. But hardly the point here when testing to see if the board works, huh, hyooie? Especially considering we know for a fact, lead and other conductive materials are used in printing ink (notably reds and yellows), and often at high, even toxic level in some less regulated countries where these boxes are printed.

Pros don't.

If you don't have a large enough wooden cutting board or plain cardboard you can use, then I recommend opening up/breaking down the motherboard box and set the motherboard in the interior side of the box. This is often just plain white (bleached) cardboard and non-conductive.

Calm down, guy I wasn't trying to be mean. I'm simply saying that it is highly unlikely that any ink will actually short the motherboard. I say that's dramatic, because though it's a possibility it is so unlikely as to be considered a nonissue.

"Pros don't."

I'm a pro, and I do. I make my living with computers, that makes me a professional.

Sure, opening up and using the inside of the box is "better." But is it necessary? Not really.

All I'm saying is, though it is definitely a theoretical possibility, in reality it will never happen. Has it ever happened that you know of?

 

[Bill_Bright]

I make my living with computers, that makes me a professional.

No it doesn't. Lots of people make their living one way or another. That in no way means they are professionals.

in reality it will never happen.

And there's where you are wrong.

Has it ever happened that you know of?

As a formally trained electronics technician (as seen via the link in my sig), we use grounded workbenches with safety mating designed for working on live electronics in my shop. I was taught in tech school years ago about the conductive properties of many inks. That's how I learned of the problem. And I do know of cases where folks trying to test their builds outside the case had problems when using motherboard boxes that were resolved just by using a cutting board instead.

 

[eidairaman1]

No it doesn't. Lots of people make their living one way or another. That in no way means they are professionals.

And there's where you are wrong.
As a formally trained electronics technician (as seen via the link in my sig), we use grounded workbenches with safety mating designed for working on live electronics in my shop. I was taught in tech school years ago about the conductive properties of many inks. That's how I learned of the problem. And I do know of cases where folks trying to test their builds outside the case had problems when using motherboard boxes that were resolved just by using a cutting board instead.

Yuppers. If a box has a metallic appearance, forget it

 

[Papahyooie]

No it doesn't. Lots of people make their living one way or another. That in no way means they are professionals..

That is literally the definition of a professional... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=professional definition

Whatever, apparently you've seen some weird motherboard boxes. I personally have done this many times in my life and it has never happened to me, so I can only give my own experience. Not trying to demean yours, just saying it's highly unlikely to happen. You yourself say you learned of the problem through tech school. That's a lot different than seeing it happen first hand, or learning it "the hard way." Like I said... theoretically if you pump enough juice even wood is conductive.

Either way, I'm not trying to argue with you. Simply sharing my experience. I'm sorry if you took my comment on being "dramatic" as an attack. It wasn't meant to be. I was simply saying that I personally think you blow the risk out of proportion.

 

[eidairaman1]

[/QUOTE="Papahyooie, post: 3585650, member: 67434"]That is literally the definition of a professional... https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=professional definition

Whatever, apparently you've seen some weird motherboard boxes. I personally have done this many times in my life and it has never happened to me, so I can only give my own experience. Not trying to demean yours, just saying it's highly unlikely to happen. You yourself say you learned of the problem through tech school. That's a lot different than seeing it happen first hand, or learning it "the hard way." Like I said... theoretically if you pump enough juice even wood is conductive.

Either way, I'm not trying to argue with you. Simply sharing my experience. I'm sorry if you took my comment on being "dramatic" as an attack. It wasn't meant to be. I was simply saying that I personally think you blow the risk out of proportion.[/QUOTE]

I've even put Boards on boxes too for years however ones that I've seen that have a metallic coating on them like a foil I don't do it

 

[Bill_Bright]

That is literally the definition of a professional...

So by your definition, whenever you call Dell or HP tech support, or call the Geek Squad or visit ANY computer/electronics repair shop, roofer, auto mechanic, HVAC repair, you know you are going to be talking to a professional who knows what he or she is doing, has been properly trained and will with certainty, provide you professional service - just because that's what he or she does for a living. Yeah right.

I was simply saying that I personally think you blow the risk out of proportion.

I merely stated the risks. I did not take your comment as an attack. I took it as inappropriately dismissive. You not only dismissed the facts at hand, you go on to say just mentioning this fact was blowing it out of proportion and now report that because you have never seen it, it must not be, suggesting readers don't need to worry about it. That's just hogwash.

Putting live electronics on potentially conductive materials (which you admit is possible) is irresponsible - and not something a professional would do.

And then you go on to talk about wood being conductive "if you pump enough juice" into it. Talk about being dramatic and blowing things out of proportion! It takes a couple 1000 volts to make wood conduct! More the dryer the wood.

But it only takes a few microvolts to disrupt the current in a high density IC - of which there are dozens on a typical motherboard. And it takes very little to cause a "low" in digital circuit, shutting that circuit down. A "low" does not mean no (shorted) voltage (or off). It just means it is less than a "high".

Now its time to move on.

 

[Papahyooie]

So by your definition, whenever you call Dell or HP tech support, or call the Geek Squad or visit ANY computer/electronics repair shop, roofer, auto mechanic, HVAC repair, you know you are going to be talking to a professional who knows what he or she is doing, has been properly trained and will with certainty, provide you professional service - just because that's what he or she does for a living. Yeah right.

I merely stated the risks. I did not take your comment as an attack. I took it as inappropriately dismissive. You not only dismissed the facts at hand, you go on to say just mentioning this fact was blowing it out of proportion and now report that because you have never seen it, it must not be, suggesting readers don't need to worry about it. That's just hogwash.

Putting live electronics on potentially conductive materials (which you admit is possible) is irresponsible - and not something a professional would do.

And then you go on to talk about wood being conductive "if you pump enough juice" into it. Talk about being dramatic and blowing things out of proportion! It takes a couple 1000 volts to make wood conduct! More the dryer the wood.

But it only takes a few microvolts to disrupt the current in a high density IC - of which there are dozens on a typical motherboard. And it takes very little to cause a "low" in digital circuit, shutting that circuit down. A "low" does not mean no (shorted) voltage (or off). It just means it is less than a "high".

Now its time to move on.

Ok.

 

[Papahyooie]

I've even put Boards on boxes too for years however ones that I've seen that have a metallic coating on them like a foil I don't do it

I've never seen such a box, but I would think that if I found one, it would be pretty obvious not to do that. If that is what Mr. Bright is talking about, then that is a whole different story. A printed cardboard box is not going to conduct electricity. Metallic foil? Sure. But not printed cardboard.