Patent War Brewing Between Intel and Qualcomm-Microsoft over x86 Emulation

[yeeeeman]

I believe Intel will lose more if they fight against these devices. From what I understand, Microsoft + Qualcomm have legal issues and while Qualcomm might not give a shit about this because they only supply the HW, Microsoft might care and want to push this. And Microsoft is part of Intel's success so this might end up bad.
On the other end, if Intel lets this gain traction they might regret it, because emulation will be perfected over time, will have 64bit added so in the end the ARM platform will close in on what Intel has, which any way you look at it, is not good for Intel business. But they deserve it, because they gave up too quickly on the Atom line (probably it didn't generate enough revenue for them).
It will be interesting to see how this turns out, but my bet is that Microsoft won't back down, because they already invested too much in this. They might back down if Intel resorts to ... let's say ... special measures

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Ever since Apple started making its own ARM SOCs, I've occasionally wondered if they had a bigger plan to someday put them in their entire line of products. I figure they didn't want to go to Intel in the first place for reasons like this, but they had no choice when PowerPC wasn't cutting it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see they have test mule desktops and MacOS running on their ARM products. If anyone can just walk away from Intel and change architectures, it would be Apple, as they have done it before. ARM-based solutions are getting pretty powerful at the lower TDPs, so it may just be a matter of time when we see a shift again.

 

[Camm]

People with the whole 'Intel is evil' line not realise that every ARM manufacturer faces pretty significant licensing costs from ARM holdings right?

What will be interesting is Intel only has enforceable patents post-pentium. The original 8086 design is unenforceable. Intel can probably argue for license rights, but those rights will diminish over time.

 

[JATownes]

It is over half a decade old, but for anyone interested in the legal history of x86, this is an exceptionally written article written in the Harvard law journal. Very informative and gives a great research starting point for some of those that didn't live through the IBM/Intel/AMD agreements and legal wranglings in the 80-90s.

http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/intel-and-the-x86-architecture-a-legal-perspective

JAT

 

[Dave65]

Stay classy, Intel

 

[TheLostSwede]

edit : And the VIA licence is non-transferrable. Via isn't doing much any more, and they can't be bought out for their x86 licence.
Its a shame, They invented mini-ITX and Pico-ITX iirc.....

Via might not be doing anything, but then again, they never were, it's Centaur doing all the x86 work and having spoken to an employee there recently, they're working on something, but I'm not at liberty to share that information I'm afraid.

 

[Solidstate89]

Microsoft's WOW emulation layer is easily the most high-performance and impressively developed emulation software in the world. To the point that running native 32-bit software on 64-bit Windows at worst, runs just as fast as on on a 32-bit Windows OS, or sometimes even faster. It's one hell of an accomplishment by any metric for an emulation layer.

Microsoft is not going to let any company dictate to them how to use WOW - even if it's Intel. Expect a protracted legal fight if Intel wants to make something out of this.

 

[ValenOne]

Microsoft's WOW emulation layer is easily the most high-performance and impressively developed emulation software in the world. To the point that running native 32-bit software on 64-bit Windows at worst, runs just as fast as on on a 32-bit Windows OS, or sometimes even faster. It's one hell of an accomplishment by any metric for an emulation layer.

Microsoft is not going to let any company dictate to them how to use WOW - even if it's Intel. Expect a protracted legal fight if Intel wants to make something out of this.

For Xbox 360's NV2A emulation, MS paid $$$ to NVIDIA.

Both NVIDIA and Intel will fight for their patents.

 

[bug]

People with the whole 'Intel is evil' line not realise that every ARM manufacturer faces pretty significant licensing costs from ARM holdings right?

What will be interesting is Intel only has enforceable patents post-pentium. The original 8086 design is unenforceable. Intel can probably argue for license rights, but those rights will diminish over time.

This. x86 patents have expired long ago, what they're enforcing these days is what was patented over the last two decades.

 

[Tralalak]

I'm pretty certain Nvidia don't have an x86 licence. Not anything that would allow them to make a cpu, or anything near it.
They have ARM licences, and so can make Tegra chips etc.

edit : And the VIA licence is non-transferrable. Via isn't doing much any more, and they can't be bought out for their x86 licence.
Its a shame, They invented mini-ITX and Pico-ITX iirc.....

Via might not be doing anything, but then again, they never were, it's Centaur doing all the x86 work and having spoken to an employee there recently, they're working on something, but I'm not at liberty to share that information I'm afraid.

* In 2003, VIA settled its long-time patent and monopolisation disputes against Intel in the UK in exchange for an extensive cross-licence agreement with Intel for 10 years.
source: http://ec.europa.eu/competition/sect...l_decision.pdf

* In addition, the FTC settlement order will require Intel to:

• modify its intellectual property agreements with AMD, Nvidia, and VIA so that those companies have more freedom to consider mergers or joint ventures with other companies, without the threat of being sued by Intel for patent infringement;
• offer to extend VIA’s x86 licensing agreement for five years beyond the current agreement, which expires in 2013;
source: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pres...-against-intel

_____________
About VIA Alliance Semiconductor Co Ltd. - 上海兆芯集成电路有限公司 (ZHAOXIN)

VIA Alliance Semiconductor Co., Ltd. was established in April 2013 with a total registered capital of USD$250M. As a joint venture between Shanghai Alliance Investment Ltd. who is affiliated to Shanghai SASAC and VIA Technologies, Inc., VIA Alliance Semiconductor Co., Ltd. has about 1000 employees and locates its headquarter at Zhangjiang of Shanghai with branches in Beijing, Hangzhou, Wuhan, Shenzhen, Taiwan, California and Texas of America (Centaur Technology Inc.).

With the forefront technologies and know-how in the design of CPU, GPU and chipsets, VIA Alliance Semiconductor Co., Ltd. is well known to provide high security, high performance, low power dissipation, and low cost SoC solutions.

As a fabless SoC factory, VIA Alliance Semiconductor Co., Ltd. adopts advanced 40nm and 28nm semiconductor processes. VIA Alliance Semiconductor Co., Ltd.’s main products include CPU and chipsets for desktop PC and laptop and ARM Cortex series SoC with its state of the art Elite series GPU and Video Engine IPs. VIA Alliance Semiconductor Co., Ltd. aims at becoming the leading SoC solution supplier for smart TV (TVOS), smart phone and tablets.


link: http://en.zhaoxin.com/

Current x86 Product
source: http://en.zhaoxin.com/Solution.aspx?id=3


• (2017): ZX-D (28nm) 2.0GHz QuadCore and 2.0GHz OctaCore
link: http://en.zhaoxin.com/InCenterContent.aspx?id=115
link: http://en.zhaoxin.com/InCenterContent.aspx?id=112
link: http://ranker.sisoftware.net/show_s...e0ddedcba39eae88f0cdfddbbedbe6d6f083be86&l=en

• (2018): ZX-E (16nm) up to 3.0GHz OctaCore

Will after AMD comeback also VIA processors comeback? FinFET’s going chips and a large modernization
source: https://translate.google.sk/translate?hl=sk&sl=cs&tl=en&u=https://www.cnews.cz/bude-po-comebacku-amd-navrat-procesoru-via-chysta-finfetove-cipy-velkou-modernizaci/

 

[FordGT90Concept]

My hope is that Microsoft wins because the implications of not being able to emulate hardware in software is far more broad sweeping than just Microsoft and Intel. Emulation is the only reasonable way to allow software to move forward in spite of changes to hardware.

And Intel created this demand in the first place by not offering a product that competes with ARM (Atom costs too much and draws too much power).

My greatest hope (and completely unrealistic) is that the court will order Intel's x86 patents public domain. They've have more than enough time to recoup their research costs.


The most likely outcome is that Microsoft will settle and pay Intel a licensing fee.

 

[newtekie1]

My greatest hope (and completely unrealistic) is that the court will order Intel's x86 patents public domain. They've have more than enough time to recoup their research costs.

My hope is that they force Intel to license x86 at a reasonable rate.

 

[remixedcat]

ARM holdings (or a large part thereof) was acquired by Saudi Arabia sheik/prince/whatever so ARM is hanging in the balance... Intel will be just fine and x86 will be as well...

 

[lightofhonor]

This. x86 patents have expired long ago, what they're enforcing these days is what was patented over the last two decades.

Basic x86, yes. But I am guessing not SSE4, AVX2, etc.

Although isn't x64 owned by AMD?

 

[csgabe]

Based on Intel logic: why does Microsoft have the right to create x86 OS or WoW x86 emulation on x64?, if it doesn't have a x86 license?

 

[newtekie1]

Basic x86, yes. But I am guessing not SSE4, AVX2, etc.

Even just SSE is still under patent until 2019 since SSE was patented in 1999. The SSE2 patent is good until 2021 and the SSE3 patent is good until 2024.

Although isn't x64 owned by AMD?

I believe, since x64 is still based on x86 and still uses the x86 instructions as a base, the x86_64 patent is actually jointly held by AMD and Intel.

 

[efikkan]

This X86 licensing crap is holding everything back. If Intel wasn't such dick about it, we'd have a lot better competition from ARM CPU makers as well. Instead, we only have AMD and Intel. Not even sure what happened to the one held by VIA...

What? How would x86 licensing have an impact on ARM?

People with the whole 'Intel is evil' line not realise that every ARM manufacturer faces pretty significant licensing costs from ARM holdings right?

What will be interesting is Intel only has enforceable patents post-pentium. The original 8086 design is unenforceable. Intel can probably argue for license rights, but those rights will diminish over time.

This case is not about the implementation, but rather the ISA. ISA patents also include extensions made over the years.

 

[OneMoar]

m$/qc don't need a license the courts already ruled years ago that hardware emulation is legal (bleem!)

 

[cdawall]

Well well well.. This will be impressive to see how two multi-billion companies legal teams go at it.

 

[RejZoR]

What? How would x86 licensing have an impact on ARM?


This case is not about the implementation, but rather the ISA. ISA patents also include extensions made over the years.

Exactly for reasons why this thread even exists. So you can run x86 apps on ARM processors.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Basic x86, yes. But I am guessing not SSE4, AVX2, etc.

Although isn't x64 owned by AMD?

IIRC, x86-64, or AMD64 was largely developed by AMD, but they made it an open standard. I don't believe there are any royalties. However, being an extension of 32bit x86, that portion still gets licensed through Intel.

 

[Totally]

This X86 licensing crap is holding everything back. If Intel wasn't such dick about it, we'd have a lot better competition from ARM CPU makers as well. Instead, we only have AMD and Intel. Not even sure what happened to the one held by VIA...

iirc went down something like this

someone was buying VIA, nvidia i think.
Intel: "Hold on not so fast"
*reaches into VIA's portfolio and plucks out x86 licence agreement*
Intel: "Sorry about that. We forgot to mention it says not transferrable."

 

[bug]

IIRC, x86-64, or AMD64 was largely developed by AMD, but they made it an open standard. I don't believe there are any royalties. However, being an extension of 32bit x86, that portion still gets licensed through Intel.

30s of searching yields: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Licensing

 

[R-T-B]

Microsoft's WOW emulation layer is easily the most high-performance and impressively developed emulation software in the world. To the point that running native 32-bit software on 64-bit Windows at worst, runs just as fast as on on a 32-bit Windows OS, or sometimes even faster. It's one hell of an accomplishment by any metric for an emulation layer.

Microsoft is not going to let any company dictate to them how to use WOW - even if it's Intel. Expect a protracted legal fight if Intel wants to make something out of this.

Except that's not an emulation layer. It's literally just running in 32-bit non-long mode on a 64-bit cpu. No emulation. The media often called it that, but it's a misuse of the term.

ARM holdings (or a large part thereof) was acquired by Saudi Arabia sheik/prince/whatever so ARM is hanging in the balance... Intel will be just fine and x86 will be as well...

No, Softbank, which is Japanese. No Saudis here.

Even if it was aquired by Saudi Arabia, I see no reason that would make it any less competitive.

 

[evernessince]

Emulation is a crime? Lololol

Intel is seeing the end in the future and they're gonna throw tantrums.

Too bad for Intel that Microsoft can laugh at Intel's legal budget.

Emulation is only a crime when you use intellectual property of the party you are emulating or use their patents. For example, Apple would not be happy if someone emulated the Apple store and hoodwinked their app database. It's essentially stealing their marketplace, even though it took Apple a long time to build up all of those developers, apps, and underlying software. The same applies to x86, where Intel is not only significantly invested on the hardware side but on the software side as well. Intel compilers, dev programs, ect. It's like giving out free candy as "CandyCorp" and then someone else stealing that name and using that goodwill to sell candy based on that first impression.