Intel Core i7 8700K Reportedly Reaches 4.8 GHz Easily, 5 GHz+ Requires Delid

[Folterknecht]

Can anyone prove , that TIM is better or Worst than Soldered for long time runs ? Or its just Intel Vs AMD again ???

For avg Joe it doesn't matter. If you are overclocking solder and liquid metal (when applied correctly) beat paste by a long shot.

Here you have thread with hundrets of examples for delided Intel CPUs (Ivybridge and onwards). including pictures. On some of these pictures you can clearly see that paste was drying out after only 1-2 year use ... you can imagine how this paste hinders OC.

 

[dj-electric]

I can't tell you guys much, but the story is very much like Kaby Lake
In terms of heat, you guys gotta remember that larger area means greater spread.

 

[Steevo]

Why don't they use liquid metals then? Even if their production costs are bumped up by $5 per CPU because of it and they charge extra $20 bucks for that to the end user, I'm willing to accept that. When you're paying 500+ bucks for CPU, extra 20 is nothing. This becomes even more true when we step up to 1000 and 1500 bucks CPU's. Adding extra 20 bucks on top of that is nothing if this ensures near perfection.

If TIM is crap and solder is bound to crack, liquid metal is best of both worlds. It can't crack and it has superior heat transmission. Cheaper CPU's can use TIM as it doesn't really matter for their heat output, but with 6+ core monsters, I want best of the best.

Cost, conductivity, and the extra manufacturing steps. Not to mention the long term effect have not been studied, what if the liquid metal eats through anything on the CPU? What if some of it gets out of the die package and gets on aluminum components?

Too many variables to control.

 

[TheGuruStud]

Cost, conductivity, and the extra manufacturing steps. Not to mention the long term effect have not been studied, what if the liquid metal eats through anything on the CPU? What if some of it gets out of the die package and gets on aluminum components?

Too many variables to control.

There's nothing to control. It only has to last long enough in a typical scenario, so their reputation isn't degraded (unlike most other industries where it's designed to last just outside warranty). They'll still last 10 years at minimum. (I'm also pretty sure they know how chemistry works, so they can predict long term use)

It's simply cost cutting, b/c they're not achieving their desired profit margin, ESPECIALLY with AMD on their ass. They know the fanbots will buy them no matter what, so they're going to abuse their stupidity.

AMD soldering them is irrefutable proof that it's A-OK to do. Companies will cut out a tiny resistor/capacitor or two on a PCB that aren't even a penny. Intel is definitely going to save this cash.

 

[haxzion]

Even if i don't agree with the solder cracks theory,since i still rock a 2600k @4.5 on air as my second pc, i will go with it.
So let's say solder isn't safe for long term scenarios, when you buy a premium CPU and you pay a premium price for it they are OBLIGATED to use a really good quality tim instead of the trash they are using and this trash gets dry VERY fast.
Premium my @ss if you ask me.As a customer i don't care if this will cost them more or if they have to work more for it, cause i paid for all that.
7700k runs way too hot for my taste,yes its a decent CPU but 80C with a decent air cooler while gaming is unacceptable even during summer.
Why do i have to delid this trash and make it operate in a more decent temp range?
If TIM is the future then make it better or go back to solder or stop asking for premium prices.
peace

 

[EarthDog]

The temps are decent... its 20c away from throttling, you are in a warm environment....

They arent obligated to do squat. You are paying for the unlocked multiplier and notably the fastest base and boost clocks.

It really doesnt dry out fast either. I know there are cases, but if it was a real problem wed see it a lot more.

I think we all agree wed like to see solder, but to call it an obligation and trash is pretty misplaced and dramatic.

 

[haxzion]

The temps are decent... its 20c away from throttling, you are in a warn environment....

They arent obligatedo do squat. You are paying for the unlocked multiplier and notably the fastest base and boost clocks.

It really doesnt dry out fast either. I know there are cases, but if it was a real problem wed see it a lot more.

I think we all agree wedike to see solder, but to call it an obligation and trash is pretty misplaced and dramatic.

yes im kinda mad about it and you said i paid for an unlocked CPU so let me ask you this. How would i OC this cpu, what kind of OC +200-300mhz with a water solution?Would you feel comfortable with temps above 80C ?

 

[cadaveca]

yes im kinda mad about it and you said i paid for an unlocked CPU so let me ask you this. How would i OC this cpu, what kind of OC +200-300mhz with a water solution?Would you feel comfortable with temps above 80C ?

EarthDog and I share views on this subject, so yeah, you get the same whether its' solder or paste.

For clocking enthusiasts that freeze their CPUs for benchmarking, solder can most definitely be an issue. For everyone else, paste is fine; solder performs better in most instances, but isn't really going to make or break an OC. Those few hundred MHz don't have much in tangible benefits, just like your worry about 80c+ temperatures. Like I know, 100C is crazy, because water boils at that temp, but your CPU will not. It's a mind-over-matter subject.

For me personally, the day Intel goes solder on mainstream CPUs, they've got issues. Their ONLY reason to use solder, as a chip maker, is to either appease the less than 10% of your user base that might be enthusiasts, of which only some care about this "problem"....

or they are like AMD, and need that solder, and your CPUs have no overhead.

Like, Intel can keep using paste forever if AMD doesn't actually provide them with real competition. Because right now, AMD still doesn't shine in the light that is Intel's per-core performance.

 

[EarthDog]

yes im kinda mad about it and you said i paid for an unlocked CPU so let me ask you this. How would i OC this cpu, what kind of OC +200-300mhz with a water solution? Would you feel comfortable with temps above 80C ?

lol, yes. I run my stress tests to 90c...you should feel comfortable higher than 80c too... the more you know...

I also said you paid for a 600mhz bump in clockspeeds along with that unlocked multiplier. The paste really has nothing to do with it the price premium. Ive seen plenty of these on stock paste in 4.8-5ghz range. Sure, it needs a 2x120/140mm aio, but, its there. Putting solder on it MIGHT get you another 100-200mhz... not more in most cases.

Better than amd who, with solder, cant even get past their own boost clocks, yet people who arent using the cores, its one main advantage, are still buying them.

 

[cadaveca]

I also said you paid for a 600mhz bump in clockspeeds along with that unlocked multiplier.

You also paid for Intel to pre-OC that CPU to that added MHz allotment, too. THAT is what you pay for; the added performance that Intel pre-tested for you. People seem to miss this part as a whole. but whatevs.

 

[Ruru]

For avg Joe it doesn't matter. If you are overclocking solder and liquid metal (when applied correctly) beat paste by a long shot.

Here you have thread with hundrets of examples for delided Intel CPUs (Ivybridge and onwards). including pictures. On some of these pictures you can clearly see that paste was drying out after only 1-2 year use ... you can imagine how this paste hinders OC.

My 7600K's paste was already dry when I delidded it after using 5 days.

Spoiler

 

[thesmokingman]

Better than amd who, with solder, cant even get past their own boost clocks, yet people who arent using the cores, its one main advantage, are still buying them.

Seriously wtf does that have to do with AMD's process limitation?

 

[EarthDog]

Its a different way of doing things. As dave expressed, amd is maxed out on process with solder (and still able to be temp limited on air). Intel uses tim and allows for enough headroom to overclock. Perhaps not to the silicons limit, but, an overclock nonetheless.

 

[Ruru]

AMD's process is stuck with the ~4GHz barrier. At least they have still something competive for a long time.

 

[cadaveca]

My 7600K's paste was already dry when I delidded it after using 5 days.

That's not "dried out". That is how it is, every time. You see, there is no "drying out" of this paste because there is nothing to "dry"... yes, small bits of oil may separate, but this compound is designed so that wouldn't be that much of an issue. That's why it looks "dry"... because it is supposed to be. What's really cool is when you take these chips sub-zero and hear it literally "pop" off.

AMD's process is stuck with the ~4GHz barrier. At least they have still something competive for a long time.

AMD isn't really competitive, but have only priced it so that the differences are something people are willing to accept. Remove cost from this, and AMD doesn't look that great. I mean, Ryzen is a huge improvement over past AMD CPU designs, there is no doubt, but that doesn't make them relevant... that's marketing's job.

 

[Agony]

For avg Joe it doesn't matter. If you are overclocking solder and liquid metal (when applied correctly) beat paste by a long shot.

Here you have thread with hundrets of examples for delided Intel CPUs (Ivybridge and onwards). including pictures. On some of these pictures you can clearly see that paste was drying out after only 1-2 year use ... you can imagine how this paste hinders OC.

thanks that's what I was looking for

 

[Jasmin Schmid]

Here, I think you missed this article I posted and we're all discussing. Maybe you want to actually read it this time. Why are you even bringing up electrical conductivity... The whole point is that cracking solder between the heatspreader and the processor will lead to hotspots on the processor and could kill it. I'd like to see you reflow the solder on a processor after the solder has begun to degrade.

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

You realize that the thermal cycles mentioned in the article are from -55°C to 125°C? Have you even read the article? How do such cycles translate to a normal user?

Micro cracks occur after about 200 to 300 thermal cycles. A thermal cycle is performed by going from -55 °C to 125 °C while each temperature is hold for 15 minutes.

Normal cycles are pretty certainly fine and Intel is just maximising profit.

 

[cadaveca]

You realize that the thermal cycles mentioned in the article are from -55°C to 125°C? Have you even read the article? How do such cycles translate to a normal user?

My CPUs usually see -120c to +100c on a regular basis. Such is the life of a PC enthusiast into running benchmarks (there are many of this type of user, but still a small-ish number compared to any other PC users). With these bigger CPUs, they pull so much power that you get cold cold, then load it up, and temps can go almost positive. Then maybe you get coldbug, and you need to heat up the pot until it boots, and often for me that is in the positive numbers, although I must digress, not 125C. That's other testing, usually on water.

It'll be interesting to see how these unreleased CPUs do when they get released compared to the X299 chips, for sure.

 

[TravisRyno]

I agree

That's solder used in a different use case ,and solder dries out, all of it does , eventually, but if soldered poorly electrical connections can deteriorate fast , but thats fixable sometimes via reflow , I've had jobs doing just that.
Soldered heatsink is purely for thermal not electric conductivity and you ares so wrong it hurts.

Y'all are big solder fans i gotta say.... I think the point is #1)Intel can hit its target fine as-is, and #2)with liquid metal now available it basically gives you the option. Then #3) there's the practical impossibility of repairing a degraded solder chip-one example of durability is not representative, though I imagine most would last. ("Most" may not be enough though considering #3) Also, and potentially the biggest reason is the complex method of soldering required may reduce yields significantly-we just don't know (it seems) -so why do it if they are already ahead of the competition with a particular generation?

...It would be interesting to look back and see if the times Intel did solder were when AMD's chip had been ahead. (Thats why I figured AMD's new 16core Cow-Tipper is soldered)

You realize that the thermal cycles mentioned in the article are from -55°C to 125°C? Have you even read the article? How do such cycles translate to a normal user?


Normal cycles are pretty certainly fine and Intel is just maximising profit.

Everyone maximizes profit. At the end of the day thats what you do.
...You have to because you never know whats coming. Margins can be tiny, 5% profit is standard in most mfg. (though idk about intel, but on average), so 1 bad year of half the revenue takes 10 normal years of profit to ameliorate...Hence why everyone is always after profit..

Even the tiniest gain in yields is reason enough for Intel. (The CPU soldering process is a complex one of relatively exotic, layered, & hard to manage materials)

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Y'all are big solder fans i gotta say.... I think the point is #1)Intel can hit its target fine as-is, and #2)with liquid metal now available it basically gives you the option. Then #3) there's the practical impossibility of repairing a degraded solder chip-one example of durability is not representative, though I imagine most would last. ("Most" may not be enough though considering #3) Also, and potentially the biggest reason is the complex method of soldering required may reduce yields significantly-we just don't know (it seems) -so why do it if they are already ahead of the competition with a particular generation?

...It would be interesting to look back and see if the times Intel did solder were when AMD's chip had been ahead. (Thats why I figured AMD's new 16core Cow-Tipper is soldered)



Everyone maximizes profit. At the end of the day thats what you do.
...You have to because you never know whats coming. Margins can be tiny, 5% profit is standard in most mfg. (though idk about intel, but on average), so 1 bad year of half the revenue takes 10 normal years of profit to ameliorate...Hence why everyone is always after profit..

Even the tiniest gain in yields is reason enough for Intel. (The CPU soldering process is a complex one of relatively exotic, layered, & hard to manage materials)

Firstly I think you need not have necroed this thread but your points replied are.

1 there's a few dealing with high heat levels and complaining on here sooo , also they limit your performance via such things.

2 liquid metal ,nahhh because shorts and it stays liquid and can flow out of position.

3 if a cpu is soldered it will need no maintenance , there's not much to fix and no one does , they last beyond their usefulness.

Hope that helps.