Intel Core i7 8700K Reportedly Reaches 4.8 GHz Easily, 5 GHz+ Requires Delid

[Steevo]

So you either read the article and disagree with it but don't have the intelligence to give a reason, or you didn't read the article and just wanted to be pedantic for what turned out to be your mistake in reading comprehension. Gotcha. I guess I'm the best kind of troll, the one that discusses the actual post and gives evidence as to why Intel may not use solder even if it has better thermal performance.

So all the solder used in high temp (not the paltry less than 220F chips interface) that works fine should crack out, right?

Except it doesn't. The TIM vs Solder is a choice in cost, and in performance limiting. Intel can tell if a chip has been overclocked and deem it unwarrantiable if they use TIM as the thermal conductivity limits maximum clocks. Solder would allow users to clock higher with more voltage easier and damage chips and they wouldn't be able to tell.

Solder is the superior choice, which is why it's used on every other part of the board including VRMs and FETs.

Lastly, suggesting that Intel uses Solder for longevity and AMD would have issues is so uninformed that it doesn't even warrant a response beyond this, testing small BGA at 100C shows modern solders don't start to fail until 16000 heat cycles, and that would be the mode of failure for Intel or AMD as they require that solder between the silicon die and substrate, regardless of thermal interface material, except if kept cooler, meaning a cooler running chip will last longer than the BGA will. All else being equal, solder is superior.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gg0MAI&usg=AFQjCNE4pEFh03aXZ_d71bj6wjaGKMH0fg

 

[R-T-B]

Probably dating myself bere but... "V"


View attachment 92376

Date frog people... save yourselves!

 

[OSdevr]

And what happened with this low quality solder ? How did the solder points fail ? Come on man , don't keep me on edge.

I think the solder was a badly non-eutectic alloy. From Wikipedia's Solder article:

"Non-eutectic alloys have markedly different solidus and liquidus temperatures, and within that range they exist as a paste of solid particles in a melt of the lower-melting phase. In electrical work, if the joint is disturbed in the pasty state before it has solidified totally, a poor electrical connection may result; use of eutectic solder reduces this problem."

The solder would have fractured along the grain boundaries of it's different components.

 

[Vya Domus]

And what exactly makes you think this was the case ?

Frankly the use of poor low temperature solder seems much more likely to cause such high failure rates.

Interestingly enough Nvidia had similar problems too around the same time. It turned out it was indeed because of poor high-lead solder with a very low melting point where the joints would in fact deform , eventually breaking contact and cause the card to fail.

 

[OSdevr]

Interestingly enough Nvidia had similar problems too around the same time. It turned out it was indeed because of poor high-lead solder with a very low melting point where the joints would in fact deform eventually breaking contact and cause the card to fail.

Huh, I thought the problem was unique to the 360.

 

[Vya Domus]

Huh, I thought the problem was unique to the 360.

It didn't , if you search around for 7xxx series cards all the way up to the 200 series you're going to find a lot of defective cards which most likely died this way. There was quite the fuss over this back when this was uncovered.

 

[Dave65]

It's not really valid to suggest that Intel is using TIM on processors just to save money. Soldering chips to heat spreaders is a great way to get rid of heat, but the solder itself will degrade faster than TIM and Intel is in the business of supplying chips for a lot of long-duration, intensive tasks, such as enterprise servers. If Intel can hit thermal targets with TIM and have the chips last longer, I'm sure they don't care that enthusiasts have to delid their chips for a scant 200 MHz of extra speed.

WTF are you smoking?

 

[eidairaman1]

Kaby Lake precedes Ryzen, no?


Most processors now are, AMD included. It's a good time for us enthusiasts.

yeah panic mode more like it

 

[newtekie1]

WTF are you smoking?

The still functioning Pentiums D 805 I have says whatever he is smoking, it is some good stuff!

 

[Prince Valiant]

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

People love linking to that and seemingly always miss this line:

A thermal cycle is performed by going from -55 °C to 125 °C while each temperature is hold for 15 minutes.

What usage scenario, outside of specifically testing it, does that apply to?

 

[R-T-B]

Personally, I want bare dies to make a comeback...

 

[INSTG8R]

And what exactly makes you think this was the case ?

Frankly the use of poor low temperature solder seems much more likely to cause such high failure rates.

Interestingly enough Nvidia had similar problems too around the same time. It turned out it was indeed because of poor high-lead solder with a very low melting point where the joints would in fact deform , eventually breaking contact and cause the card to fail.

Yep I have an old laptop with an 8400M that was bad and needed replacement. PS3 phats go the same way eventually too.

 

[Melvis]

If it runs over 80c at stock clocks on air cooling then its a bit of a fail in my eyes.

 

[ps000000]

CINEBENCH R15 multi threads score @ 4.8 on 6Cores12Threads ????

 

[thesmokingman]

"Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs."

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

Paste doesn't crack when it's sealed in a heatspreader. Solder is well known to crack under successive heat loads. For example, this is what caused the 30% failure rate of Xbox 360's.. Sorry guys, your feels don't affect materials science.

That article if you can call it that contradicts itself and is borderline fear mongering. Read the fine print:

Micro cracks occur after about 200 to 300 thermal cycles. A thermal cycle is performed by going from -55 °C to 125 °C while each temperature is hold for 15 minutes. The micro cracks will grow over time and can damage the CPU permanently if the thermal resistance increases too much or the solder preform cracks completely.

So how many times are YOU going to run your cpu from -55 °C to 125 °C and hold it for 15 minutes at each extreme for 200 to 300 cycles???? Lmao, how much money in LN2 is that going to take lol.

 

[thesmokingman]

People love linking to that and seemingly always miss this line:

Those who link to that article imo haven't actually read it. In the first half, it describes the miraculous properties of iridium.

However, tin based solder won’t stick to silicon at all. In addition, solidifying tin will shrink by a large factor which results in a big thermal tension inside the material. This tension could already damage the substrate of the CPU.

Indium (Figure 4) is the only known material which can stick to both, copper and silicon. At the same time, solidifying indium doesn’t shrink much which leads to a small factor of thermal tension inside the TIM.

Note since Tin based solder won't adhere to silicon, it's thermal tension won't matter if it damages or not, it won't stick defeating the point. But luckily we have iridium solder which does stick.

In addition, indium is very ductile which allows thermal expansion of substrate and heatspreader without damaging any of the components involved. Indium melts at 157 °C.

But then does it damage or does it not? See the article reads like paid propaganda to me.

 

[Nihilus]

The news editors on TPU are doing a great job flame war baiting most of you guys....

Regardless of whats between the silicon and heatspreader, the 8700K will be a great processor even at stock speeds.

Agreed! Not sure why it was brought up except to start a flame war. Everyone knew it would be TIM already.

 

[phanbuey]

Agreed! Not sure why it was brought up except to start a flame war. Everyone knew it would be TIM already.

That's a relevant topic of discussion - and also no one knew if there were going to be any additional improvements of the manufacturing process for the 6 core or if they were going to roll out KB+2.

The flame is just built up angst that intel :

 

[Totally]

"Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs." Paste doesn't crack when it's sealed in a heatspreader.

http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

Sure does dry out and formsmicro fissures over time tho. Yep just needs time.

Solder is well known to crack under successive heat loads. For example, this is what caused the 30% failure rate of Xbox 360's.. Sorry guys, your feels don't affect materials science.

Cracks forming is also heavily dependent on number of heat cycles over the lifetime of the chip. Just throwing that 2c out there.

 

[oxidized]

Nonsense, there isn't a big enough thermal shock to crack solder, it'd have to go to melting point or close to it, way down to ambient temperature in seconds repeatedly, for that to happen. Still running 2600K @ 4.5GHz and it's been 6+ years, 0 problems

 

[Totally]

Nonsense, there isn't a big enough thermal shock to crack solder, it'd have to go to melting point or close to it, way down to ambient temperature in seconds for that to happen. Still running 2600K @ 4.5GHz and it's been 6+ years, 0 problems

The cracks aren't formed by shock but by wicking of the Indium along the Gold bonding regions. I was pointing out that the cycle has to happen many times for this to become problematic as TIM defenders are making it out to be. Also melting temps do not need to be reached only enough energy need to be provided for the two metals to react causing the atoms to shift in the lattice. When enough atoms shift or are displaced cracks form.

 

[RejZoR]

People constantly say that solder degrades. But has anyone actually EVER seen one that has failed or started overheating because of this? Or is this just fluff myth that exists in theory but not in practice? Where with TIM, we know that it's in fact inferior from a brand new processor purchased on day one...

 

[RejZoR]

Yep I have an old laptop with an 8400M that was bad and needed replacement. PS3 phats go the same way eventually too.

That wasn't because of solder, that was because the 8400M were defective on the fabrication level. I had one and salvaged it with baking process. The GPU was naked, it had no IHS...

 

[INSTG8R]

That wasn't because of solder, that was because the 8400M were defective on the fabrication level. I had one and salvaged it with baking process. The GPU was naked, it had no IHS...

Yeah I only started baking with PS3s with good success I might add.

 

[RejZoR]

Well, with baking, you don't really have anything to lose. The component died already, so if you make it work, great, if not, well, it died anyway in the first place. So, it's always worth a try.