Global Warming & Climate Change Discussion

[FordGT90Concept]

This is more political than science/technology but... the headline isn't what it seems...

Republican leader says Senate will vote on Green New Deal

...recommend reading it because...this American "green" politics 101. It has 0% chance of passing. McConnell's intent is to put on full display how far left Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is--so far left that even Democrats can't support it. Then Republicans will attack Democrats for not supporting a "green" bill putting Democrats on the defense having to explain why they didn't which flings more fire at Ocasio-Cortez because Democrats have to distance themselves from her. All told, if she's opposed in 2020, she likely won't win.

Edit: Here is the bill (details on what it does start on page 5): https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5729033/Green-New-Deal-FINAL.pdf

Main provisions:

to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions through a fair and just transition for all communities and workers;

to secure for all people of the United States for generations to come—
(i) clean air and water;
(ii) climate and community resiliency;
(iii) healthy food;
(iv) access to nature; and
(v) a sustainable environment;

to promote justice and equity by stopping current, preventing future, and repairing historic oppression of indigenous communities, communities of color, migrant communities, deindustrialized communities, depopulated rural communities, the poor, low-income workers, women, the elderly, the unhoused, people with disabilities, and youth (referred to in this resolution as ‘‘frontline and vulnerable communities’’)

US government action on CO2 beyond what it is happening is extremely unlikely in the next decade.

 

[Space Lynx]

This is more political than science/technology but... the headline isn't what it seems...

Republican leader says Senate will vote on Green New Deal

...recommend reading it because...this American "green" politics 101. It has 0% chance of passing. McConnell's intent is to put on full display how far left Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is--so far left that even Democrats can't support it. Then Republicans will attack Democrats for not supporting a "green" bill putting Democrats on the defense having to explain why they didn't which flings more fire at Ocasio-Cortez because Democrats have to distance themselves from her. All told, if she's opposed in 2020, she likely won't win.

Edit: Here is the bill (details on what it does start on page 5): https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5729033/Green-New-Deal-FINAL.pdf

Main provisions:





US government action on CO2 beyond what it is happening is extremely unlikely in the next decade.

her voting district is the Bronx and Queens though, those people don't give a crap what the rest of congress has to say, and she has enough star power now she will continue to win those districts I am pretty certain, the Democratic machine thinks it has power when it really doesn't at all (for certain very far left districts) /shrug

I honestly could care less either way, it doesn't matter who is in power left or right, the only issue I care about is healthcare and it will never be fixed in this country, having traveled to Australia, Japan, and most of Europe, and living in Finland ever summer, I can confirm, the rest of the world laughs at us regarding healthcare costs for decades now. I am currently in Ireland and have every intention of staying here.

 

[John Naylor]

I have supported candidates from both side of the aisle, authored position papers submitted to both sate and federal leaders on technical issues and I see today's central issue to be "reality" versus "confirmation bias" (reading only <cough, cough> "news sources that write what fits people's preconceived notions). Whether it be vaccinations, global warming, "the wall", sex trafficking and white slavery rings operating out of pizza basements or anything else folks will ignore what's real versus any whacko blogger who has what they think is an idea in their head. It's not only health care... the same is true of NATO, hi speed rail, the environment, trickle down economics, tax rates, quality of life .... the US's greatest deficit these days seems to be common sense. And while Europe is also going backwards of late on these issues, they are ahead of US in these areas.

One has to wonder about a the "resume" of elected leaders who more and more have no experience in elected office or the Departments they are heading. Why we don't question the resume of folks on the ballot should be a concern ... and former lobbyists, folks with fraud or tax should be among the a utomatic "no nos's. I even have to wonder about the fact that we have a minimum age but no maximum.

The median age of currently serving Senators is 65 years, 142 days. That's only a year older than me and that's scary. I've watched family member age past 70 and seen their changes in physical health, mental capacity, etc. When my Dad was Mitch MCConnel's age, he was telling me about the walk he took that morning to the beach, something he hadn't done in 5 years and asked me to introduce him to my friend (his grandson). In many states, judges have to retire (or at least can't be re-elected, by age 70. If a judge is deemed unfit for service at that age, why not politicians ? Personal perspective matters, and I have to wonder when we talk about issues affecting the environment, climate change, future of transportation, etc and weighing cost over time versus sacrifices in the here and now, these folks with just a few years left on this planet, are thinking little about what happens after they're dead. Of course if term limits were a give this would not be as much of an issue.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I was digging for any new information clouds and climate change when I discovered this:

Cover crops may increase winter temperatures in North America
...soil erosion prevention is leading to winter warming. Albedo in general is under appreciated...just like clouds.

Here's more what I was looking for...

The climate secrets of southern clouds
...models consistently get it wrong so they travelled there to try to figure out why.

In search of 60-mile-high waves
...research into cooling, mostly invisible clouds.


Ran into one on methane...
What's happening with methane?
...the hiatus ending in 2007 is principally thought to be caused by Asian countries implementing water conservation techniques due to drought.

Most of the carbon dioxide emissions are coming from fossil-fuel sources that are taxed by countries. In the methane budget, you have large natural terms and large agricultural sources, which isn’t the case for CO2. It’s difficult to model how the important terms in the methane budget are changing. How has the leakage of natural gas from our distribution system changed over time? How has the efficiency of methane production in agriculture changed? What about the number and distribution of livestock, or the quality of their feed? These are more difficult to quantify on the continental scale that you need for a global budget.

Not just rain: thunderstorms also pour down ozone
...this is just plain interesting.

Pan subsequently discovered that, during that flight, the DIAL instrument recorded a phenomenon that was only hinted before but never observed in an unambiguous fashion. Above the leading edge of the eastward moving storm, DIAL registered a curtain of ozone dipping below the stratosphere, where it was relatively abundant, into the troposphere. On a graph, this ozone-rich air resembled a ram’s horn whose wide end was pushed eastward ahead of the storm and whose narrow end curved westward into the storm.

Cities change temperatures for thousands of miles
...another plain interesting read.

In a new study that shows the extent to which human activities are influencing the atmosphere, scientists have concluded that the heat generated by everyday activities in metropolitan areas alters the character of the jet stream and other major atmospheric systems. This affects temperatures across thousands of miles, significantly warming some areas and cooling others, according to the study this week in Nature Climate Change.

 

[dorsetknob]

Both were intresting reading ..............thanks.

 

[xtreemchaos]

if you cannot see the effect its having on the the planet you must be blind. in two hundred years our planet will most likely be heading the same way as Venus. if the truth is known we are probley past the point of no return allready " We Are Doomed".

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Back from 2011...
Switching from coal to natural gas would do little for global climate, study indicates
...besides the risk of methane leak...

While coal use causes warming through emission of heat-trapping carbon dioxide, it also releases comparatively large amounts of sulfates and other particles that, although detrimental to the environment, cool the planet by blocking incoming sunlight.

...now remember what capacity is being installed to counter the variability of wind and solar...natural gas.


I knew this...but most of you probably don't...
Corn and climate: a sweaty topic
...let me tell you, 90F next to a sweating corn field is worse than 115F in a desert.

“The Midwest is the only place in the world where these crops cover more than half of a grid box,” says Levis. Each CESM box spans 1.9° by 2.5° degrees at midlatitudes, or about half the area of Iowa.

 

[John Naylor]

Here's a story that addressed this issue well ...

At a NYC race event held in mid summer 2016 tempers are flaring in to 90 degree heat because no one painted the start and finish lines for the mile run and each political party is blaming the other. While they are painting the lines, a 35 year old politician who was a track star in college makes a very public bet against the man he claimed was responsible for the delay ... the man who was going to be his opponent in the upcoming election.

He taunts his opponent that if he were running things, the race would have started on time and ... furthermore ... he bets he can still run a mile in under 4 minutes .... the opponent takes the best and the stakes are ... there will be no election come November, if he does it in < 4 minutes, he wins the election. They will start the time when he steps off a sensor placed at the staring line and the clock will stop when he steps on the sensor at the finish line. And since he's the great organizer, the man running is in charge of race organization this time.

Come November, it's a brisk 40 degrees, the runner takes off his warm up suit stands on the sensor at the starting line painted the very day the bet was made. He's off.... as large crowds watch, the man is making a good pace, from end to end the pace he keeps is barely what he needs to do to won the election. As he is coming down the last 100 feet he's still unsure but as he gets with in a few paces, he knows it's his. He takes a long high stride for that last bit and lands on the sensor stopping the clock at 3:59.99 right where he was saytnding at the finish line when hemade that best last summer. Why did he lose ?

For those thinking this is a trick question I have 2 things to say a) No, the runner is not Chris Christie or he'd still be running and b) the man on the other side of the bet is not Chris Christie or the traffic jam would have made the race impossible. Anyway Spoiler follows:

Spoiler: Brain Over Brawn

When they painted the lines in the summer race it was 90 degrees F ... on election day when he ran the race, it was 40 degrees F . With the change in temperature of 50 degrees and using the coefficient of linear expansion for steel, the distance between the start and finish lines was shorter in the cold ... now only 5,278.3 feet. He never finished the full mile.

 

[R-T-B]

I am currently in Ireland and have every intention of staying here.

Take me with you. I can fit in luggage if I hold my breath.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Republican leader says Senate will vote on Green New Deal

The proposal was unanimously defeated (not a single "yay" vote) in the Senate:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...senate-rejecting-green-new-deal-idUSKCN1RA2PL

 

[Space Lynx]

The proposal was unanimously defeated (not a single "yay" vote) in the Senate:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...senate-rejecting-green-new-deal-idUSKCN1RA2PL

The Green New Deal would work, but not in America, only in China... and China is largely already doing a lot of what the new green deal wanted. The hybrid capitalist/communist/authoritarian government they have formed as allowed the free markets to flourish, but with the power of the state to specifically order certain parts be made at certain costs. I believe I read somewhere that China makes nucelear power pants for 2% of what it costs the USA and in 10 years less time.

Not to mention they have heavily invested high speed rail, and it doesn't cost them a fortune to do so -unlike California thinking they could pull off high speed rail while letting contractors scam them on money-

Trump was right about one thing pre-2016 win - "Government contractors scam the hell out of the American tax payer dollar"

China is very odd beast in that it can do all this stuff cheaply and forcefully, but still let other markets be run without a guiding hand, allowing for growth, creativity, production, jobs, etc. Call it whatever you want, I call it a hybrid communist/capitalist state. Yes, I know Hong Kong is technically separate, but in reality not really, it still answers to the King. I suppose we can call him that now since he has gotten rid of election cycles. lol

Long term China is going to win, no doubt about it... nuclear power is the best if you don't have to worry about tsunami's and earthquakes happening at the same time... like Japan...

On that note --- Germany is dumb as hell, for getting rid of nuclear after Fukushima... knee jerk reaction taken out of context... Germany is dumb as hell... they don't have to worry about a tsunami and earthquake at the same time like Fukushima did... so now Germany is pumping more coal then ever before to make up for turning off the nuclear power plants. This is the kneejerk reaction of the far left at its best.

The free markets work for certain sectors, but if China can build a nuclear power plant at 2% the cost and 10 years shaved off time... you don't have contractors saying, we can do this for you at this price... Xi Jinping will just say no, screw you, you are building this now at this price - and good luck starting a rebellion in post-modern times, won't last a second. Didn't the entire world march January 20, 2017? All 7 continents, LOL nothing ever came from it, what a joke. Xi Jinping has got it right, you forcefully guide transportation, agriculture, military, and the energy sector - but you for the most part let Hong Kong do the free market capitalist stuff untouched to help the money flow.

Capitalism in it's pure form scams the tax payer money because of contractors getting in groupthink situations and taking the tax payer for everything they are worth because of incompetent government workers who do the hiring for said contractors, because who cares if you have a blank check right.

 

[Easy Rhino]

Are we all dead yet? Nope.

 

[Space Lynx]

Are we all dead yet? Nope.

No but Chinese citizens will have a far better quality of life than our offspring will in about 50 years.

Welcome to Strategic Command, Private.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

29 billion tonnes Co2 per year we produce, yikes

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I believe I read somewhere that China makes nucelear power pants for 2% of what it costs the USA and in 10 years less time.

China designs the reactors, China feeds, cloths, and shelters the people that build and operate them, China has other people that provide the construction materials, and there's no second guessing any of it.

In USA, and most of the rest of the world, regulation causes the price of nuclear reactors to soar over $1 billion. Those regulations include things like sealing the reactor from the water table, ensuring that the superstructure is overbuilt to handle 100+ year seismic activity, making sure backup systems are implemented and adequate, their plan for dealing with waste is adequate, their plan for local emergencies is adequate, the super structure is adequate against terror attack, and so on.

 

[Space Lynx]

China designs the reactors, China feeds, cloths, and shelters the people that build and operate them, China has other people that provide the construction materials, and there's no second guessing any of it.

In USA, and most of the rest of the world, regulation causes the price of nuclear reactors to soar over $1 billion. Those regulations include things like sealing the reactor from the water table, ensuring that the superstructure is overbuilt to handle 100+ year seismic activity, making sure backup systems are implemented and adequate, their plan for dealing with waste is adequate, their plan for local emergencies is adequate, the super structure is adequate against terror attack, and so on.

I'm sure China's nuclear power protections have none of that without regulations, you're right...

 

[FordGT90Concept]

China's first on-line nuclear power plant did so on December 15, 1991. They're going to start running into waste management issues starting in 2020. China has over 100 nuclear power plants but they haven't been tested by natural disaster, attack, etc. They haven't been operating plants long enough for nuclear waste to become a strategic problem.

Also keep in mind that Chinese have very little individual freedoms and Xi Jinping (whom you praised) has been crushing what little they have gained under Hu Jintao and Jiang Zemin.

 

[Easy Rhino]

No but Chinese citizens will have a far better quality of life than our offspring will in about 50 years.

Welcome to Strategic Command, Private.

No they will not. China actively oppresses Christians and Muslims. They are put in education work camps. They have a social score to further oppress citizens. They have spy cameras everywhere. There is no real justice system in place to protect the citizenry. They actively steal IP of other nations and make bad knock offs. Their infrastructure has not been built to withstand any long term ecological factors. They suppress all forms of speech and control the news. So in short, they have been actively battling civil unrest and they are forced to squeeze their grip tighter with every new generation. You can expect major social problems in China in the next 20 years as their economy continues to sputter.

 

[Caring1]

No they will not. China actively oppresses Christians and Muslims. They are put in education work camps. They have a social score to further oppress citizens. They have spy cameras everywhere. There is no real justice system in place to protect the citizenry. They actively steal IP of other nations and make bad knock offs. Their infrastructure has not been built to withstand any long term ecological factors. They suppress all forms of speech and control the news. So in short, they have been actively battling civil unrest and they are forced to squeeze their grip tighter with every new generation. You can expect major social problems in China in the next 20 years as their economy continues to sputter.

So they are a few years ahead of other civilized nations in controlling citizen X, welcome to our future.

 

[Bones]

So they are a few years ahead of other civilized nations in controlling citizen X, welcome to our future.

This.
Socialism and Communism are about the same thing except for when asked the difference, is there a loaded AK-47 pointed at your head at the time the question is asked?
In a socialist/communist society you ARE property of the government, lock, stock and barrel.

Making everything of a social nature takes freedom(s) away, even the right to decide things of a basic nature, things you would decide for yourself.

China is a good example of it.
Quality of life is good for a select few, all of which belong to the upper crust of their society. All the rest have to work to support them because the ones with the "Good Life" don't have to unless they choose to do so.

For the workers...... No off days, sick days, leaving early, arriving late, weekends, holidays or anything else..... You work 365 days a year for next to nothing in wages or as they are always telling them to "Sacrifice" and you will work until you're allowed to go home which could be a matter of days from the time you leave home until you get back for a single work shift. You can't just quit your job either, that gets you into some very hot water and straightup walking off the job is a big no-no too.

On top of all that, you'd best be at work each and every of these 365 days or the job truancy patrol WILL track you down and you had better have a damn good excuse why you're not at work or you will be.
Doesn't this sound a little like slavery..... Maybe even a little?
Yes it does.

If you're willing to piss away all of your rights to choose what's best for yourself, what you want for yourself and even the basic right to just decide in general things concerning your own life, you'll get it and even deserve it......
And no sense in griping about it when you discover the "Everything is free" Utopia being pushed is anything "But" with you in the end having to pay back for all the freebies you got. That price will be collected one day because nothing is truly free to anyone.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

...back on topic, 95% of cattle methane is from their mouth, not their rump...
Scientists breathalyze cows to measure methane emissions

Average bovine is estimated to put out about 0.5 lbs of methane daily...
Livestock Methane Emissions in the United States

 

[xkm1948]

No they will not. China actively oppresses Christians and Muslims. They are put in education work camps. They have a social score to further oppress citizens. They have spy cameras everywhere. There is no real justice system in place to protect the citizenry. They actively steal IP of other nations and make bad knock offs. Their infrastructure has not been built to withstand any long term ecological factors. They suppress all forms of speech and control the news. So in short, they have been actively battling civil unrest and they are forced to squeeze their grip tighter with every new generation. You can expect major social problems in China in the next 20 years as their economy continues to sputter.

Time backs up 300 years and all the rest of the world were trying to catch up with China.

Civilization rise and fall. The Chinese system has continued surviving and evolving for the past 2000 years while being the lead of the civilization for the majority of the time. I see little reason why they won't lead again in the near future. Of course that is also thanks to the declining and self destruction of western civilization. And of course I'm Asian and I'm biased.

 

[Bones]

And I guess they didn't bother to survey/measure the amounts coming from other creatures too out in the wild - And I mean all of them and yes, they fart too.
The impact of cattle farts to the end they claim is non-existent or we'd all be beyond "In trouble" by now.

Time backs up 300 years and all the rest of the world were trying to catch up with China.

Civilization rise and fall. The Chinese system has continued surviving and evolving for the past 2000 years while being the lead of the civilization for the majority of the time. I see little reason why they won't lead again in the near future. Of course that is also thanks to the declining and self destruction of western civilization. And of course I'm Asian and I'm biased.

The Chinese system as is now isn't the reason for China being around for so long, the older system of non-communism had worked for nearly the entire time mentioned and was abolished only recently in terms of time stated by force of arms from those wishing to forcefully impose communism as a by-product of Japan's actions before and during WWII.

 

[xkm1948]

...back on topic, 95% of cattle methane is from their mouth, not their rump...
Scientists breathalyze cows to measure methane emissions

Average bovine is estimated to put out about 0.5 lbs of methane daily...
Livestock Methane Emissions in the United States

Bacteria and other micro organism are far more effiecent in putting out methane as well as other Green House Gas than higher order organisms.

Oh and also bacteria out numbers the rest of the life forms combined in terms of sheer number of cells. Even methane from those livestock's gut is due to fermentation from the microorganisms. Think about that for a second.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

And I guess they didn't bother to survey/measure the amounts coming from other creatures too out in the wild - And I mean all of them and yes, they fart too.
The impact of cattle farts to the end they claim is non-existent or we'd all be beyond "In trouble" by now.

ruminants = cattle

How much methane a ruminant produces can be guesstimated from how much feed and what type of feed it consumes. Simply changing cattle over to a diet of corn can cut their methane emissions by ~33% versus prairie grazing.

Bacteria and other micro organism are far more effiecent in putting out methane as well as other Green House Gas than higher order organisms.

Oh and also bacteria out numbers the rest of the life forms combined in terms of sheer number of cells. Even methane from those livestock's gut is due to fermentation from the microorganisms. Think about that for a second.

Yes, the methane is mostly caused by microbes in their rumen.