MSI Betrays AMD's Socket AM4 Longevity Promise: No Zen2 for 300-series?

[R0H1T]

I don't know where do you get all that optimism.

AMD is expected to launch at least 12-core CPUs. Many hope for 16-core.
There is no way 7nm is twice as efficient as 14nm. These CPUs will use more power.

It is especially 7nm EUV, just not at uber high clock speeds I'd imagine ~ AMD Ryzen 3rd Gen 'Matisse' Coming Mid 2019: Eight Core Zen 2 with PCIe 4.0 on Desktop

IIRC AMD showed that at 7nm TSMC - the power consumption will be lower by ~50% & then there's other improvements like IPC, IF & even PCIe 4.0 to account for.

 

[lexluthermiester]

But the discussion is about being able to upgrade to Zen2 - power requirements being one of the probable issues.

Which will not be a problem as all Ryzen 3 CPU's will be on 7nm and using LESS power per core. So if a board is design for an 8 core Ryzen 1 or 2, an 8 core Ryzen 3 will safely and perfectly run on the same board and because of the power savings, a 10 or 12 core model will very likely run just as safely. The same thing was true with The Core2 series. If it could run the 65nm Core2, the 45nm Core2 would run perfectly with just a BIOS update. How do you not understand this very simple dynamic? The technology has advanced and changed, but the same principle applies. This is especially true given that AMD has SPECIFICALLY engineered the chipsets to support these transitions. AMD knows what they're doing and as long as motherboard makers have complied with AMD's specifications, which they would have had to run the first and second gen CPU's, then Ryzen 3 will run perfectly with a firmware update.

For those(and the following) reasons your argument is without merit.

you're quite badly informed.

Irony.

compatibility with existing motherboards is being investigated by MSI (and surely by other manufacturers as well).

Pointless posturing. All AM4 chipsets are electrically compatible with all Ryzen CPU's until AMD announces a change, which they haven't and have already said they won't for the next couple years. Boards based on them are required to support Ryzen 3(Zen2) at minimum.

 

[notb]

It is especially 7nm EUV, just not at uber high clock speed I'd imagine ~ AMD Ryzen 3rd Gen 'Matisse' Coming Mid 2019: Eight Core Zen 2 with PCIe 4.0 on Desktop

It's not if they want to keep the same single-thread performance.
But sure: if they push the clocks low enough, 16 cores at 95W aren't a problem.

It might be that we'll see high-clocked 8-core and low-clocked 16-core models. Although it would be a weird offer for consumers (slow 16 cores useful for what?).
It's a different story in server segment, where such a choice has been true for many years.

IIRC AMD showed that at 7nm TSMC the power consumption will be lower by ~40% & then there's other improvements like IPC, IF & even PCIe 4.0 to account for.

Everything AMD has shown until now was Radeon VII. And it's not 40%.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Everything AMD has shown until now was Radeon VII. And it's not 40%.

Seriously? You clearly didn't read the article cited. Ian's input was very clear on the matter and has yet to be refuted/corrected by AMD. Granted, it is his theory, but I'm going to take Ian's logic and reason based theory over your gibber-gabber all day long.

 

[R0H1T]

It's not if they want to keep the same single-thread performance.
But sure: if they push the clocks low enough, 16 cores at 95W aren't a problem.

It might be that we'll see high-clocked 8-core and low-clocked 16-core models. Although it would be a weird offer for consumers (slow 16 cores useful for what?).
It's a different story in server segment, where such a choice has been true for many years.

Everything AMD has shown until now was Radeon VII. And it's not 40%.

9900k isn't a 95W TDP processor either outside it's base clocks, just so you know.

Did you see the link, also EPYC (Zen2) reveal sometime earlier? AMD discussed the process characteristics of TSMC 7nm, it should be clear enough based on AT's power estimates that Zen2 (7nm TSMC) will be nearly 2x as efficient as Zen on GF 14nm, if not better than that.

 

[notb]

Which will not be a problem as all Ryzen 3 CPU's will be on 7nm and using LESS power per core. So if a board is design for an 8 core Ryzen 1 or 2, an 8 core Ryzen 3 will safely and perfectly run on the same board and because of the power savings, a 10 or 12 core model will very likely run just as safely.

I think you should talk with people more and spend less time building PCs.
Ask those who bought 8-core Ryzen system, with plans to upgrade later, if "10 or 12 core will likely run" is what they were expecting.

AMD knows what they're doing

It's your opinion.

as long as motherboard makers have complied with AMD's specifications, which they would have had to run the first and second gen CPU's, then Ryzen 3 will run perfectly with a firmware update.

So give me 1 reason why it's not official yet.
Why aren't all companies, AMD included, saying: of course you'll be able to run Zen2 on your x370.

Why is AMD silent?
Why is MSI "testing potential compatibility"?

Pointless posturing. All AM4 chipsets are electrically compatible with all Ryzen CPU's until AMD announces a change, which they haven't and have already said they won't for the next couple years. Boards based on them are required to support Ryzen 3(Zen2) at minimum.

Yeah. We'll see in few months. Someone will have a laugh, that's for sure. [/QUOTE]

9900k isn't a 95W TDP processor outside it's base clocks, just so you know.

Of course it isn't. But it works on every board with a chipset that supports 9th gen.

This is what we're discussing here, right? Many people believed Ryzen 3000 will work on the AM4 motherboard they bought in 2017.

Did you see the link, also EPYC reveal sometime earlier? AMD discussed the process characteritics of TSMC 7nmm, it should be clear enough based on AT's power estimates that zen2 (7nm TSMC) will be nearly 2x as effcient as Zen on GF 14nm if not better.

Not possible. It makes no sense physically for an architecture to use half the power because it takes half the space. It wouldn't converge properly.
Well, unless we agree that Zen on GF 14nm was rubbish and there was a lot of place for improvement on it. And I really don't that was the case.

 

[R0H1T]

Of course it isn't. But it works on every board with a chipset that supports 9th gen.

This is what we're discussing here, right? Many people believed Ryzen 3000 will work on the AM4 motherboard they bought in 2017.

Not possible. It makes no sense physically for an architecture to use half the power because it takes half the space. It wouldn't converge properly.
Well, unless we agree that Zen on GF 14nm was rubbish and there was a lot of place for improvement on it. And I really don't that was the case.

You know what, you make some unreal claims with whatever info you have on this topic

Let me correct myself, it is indeed 50% less power i.e. at least 2x as efficient ~ https://www.anandtech.com/show/1357...-4-an-interview-with-amd-cto-mark-papermaster

 

[lexluthermiester]

I think you should talk with people more and spend less time building PCs.

Thanks for the tip.

Ask those who bought 8-core Ryzen system, with plans to upgrade later, if "10 or 12 core will likely run" is what they were expecting.

Um, don't be changing my comments to fit your narrative. I said VERY likely, as in almost guaranteed. Also, see below..

It's your opinion.

Actions speak louder than words and AMD's actions show that they are on-form. Not really an opinion as it is conclusion based on demonstrable track record.

Yeah. We'll see in few months. Someone will have a laugh, that's for sure.

Are you done being a troll picking a fight? Grow up a little.

The facts are, AMD designed the Ryzen series with upgrades specifically in mind. They have stated clearly that AM4 will be supported for several iterations of the Ryzen line. Motherboard makers are required, by contract, to follow with that design specification. Again, your nay-saying argument has no merit.

 

[Melvis]

3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1.

Link please.

But the discussion is about being able to upgrade to Zen2 - power requirements being one of the probable issues.
I think most people hope that they'll be able to upgrade to more cores - not the same number of them, just using 20% less power.

For such an AMD fan, you're quite badly informed.
Currently available BIOS upgrades are for 3000-series APUs, which will be based on Zen+. So basically, it's the same tech these motherboards support already - they just need additional data to detect them.
3000-series APUs will likely be launched in May.

Ryzen 3000-series based on Zen 2 (chiplets, 7nm) is coming later and compatibility with existing motherboards is being investigated by MSI (and surely by other manufacturers as well). Whatever that means. Maybe AMD simply didn't allow them to go public yet.

If older motherboards (chipsets) simply can't work with chiplets, then it's a sad but fairly controllable case - people will have to replace them.
If it's an issue with power supply or something like that, MSI will have to cover the more power hungry 12/16-core CPUs somehow (lock cores, underclock etc).

Link? because far as I am aware they are all under the same BIOS update as they are on the same die as shown in all the leaks from the past few months.

Everything else you say about MSI is false as they have already released a press update about the false news.

 

[GoldenX]

Link please.



Link? because far as I am aware they are all under the same BIOS update as they are on the same die as shown in all the leaks from the past few months.

Everything else you say about MSI is false as they have already released a press update about the false news.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-ryzen-mobile-3000-series-apu

 

[Melvis]

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-ryzen-mobile-3000-series-apu

Erm we are talking about desktop CPU's not Mobile CPU's, but thanks for the link anyway

 

[nemesis.ie]

@Melvis The original qute you asked for the link for did say "APU" though.


"GoldenX said:
3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1."

 

[Melvis]

@Melvis The original qute you asked for the link for did say "APU" though.


"GoldenX said:
3000 series APUs are Zen1+, like current 2000 series APUs are just Zen1."

Yes but not mobile APU's as that was never discussed at all in any of the posts I mentioned.

 

[GoldenX]

The leak doesn't has a chiplet.

 

[GoldenX]

Beta BIOS with Zen2 support for B350 chipsets.

 

[moomeacow]

so was this article bullshit I didn't read through 13 pages but I see beta bios already out 7/16. I think if msi actually did block it, every person who bought their cards including me would never buy their mother boards again. i'm still on 1800x i'll probably upgrade when zen 4 is out, not in a hurry to be on the latest hardware.

 

[Leonardo Oscar Morellato]

we need a moderator to close the thread if msi did support latest ryzen on 300 series chipset

 

[lexluthermiester]

we need a moderator to close the thread if msi did support latest ryzen on 300 series chipset

They have and even on A320 boards.

 

[Space Lynx]

yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.

 

[biffzinker]

yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.

The Ryzen 3 1200 might be useful for flashing with support for Bristol Ridge going away.

 

[lexluthermiester]

yeah but you still need an older amd chip to flash the bios so the new one will work, its a bit annoying and time consuming even if amd does offer it for free. im sure they use free shipping too, aka takes a week.

Most people looking to upgrade their CPU almost certainly already have one to flash the BIOS with. Trivial issue IMO.

 

[Mussels]

Most people looking to upgrade their CPU almost certainly already have one to flash the BIOS with. Trivial issue IMO.

true for people already on ryzen, not true for people wanting to get into 3rd gen, without getting x570

the x470 and b450 refresh boards will be flowing out soon enough, for 'value' ryzen 3000 options

 

[nemesis.ie]

One would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?

 

[Mussels]

One would think dealers could pre-flash their stock?

open the boxes, assemble into a test bench, flash the BIOS (potentially removing certain features like APU support) and put it back in the box, then potentially sell it for less as an open-box product? not a chance

 

[nemesis.ie]

A lot of them put the box sleeve on at time of shipping I think.

That could also be done as a "value add" (small charge) for customers and would also be a lot cheaper than having to restock/return a board that didn't work.

Some of the vendors already provide CPU and RAM insertion services.