Throttlestop overclocking Desktop PCs

[skizzo]

to clarify, I game on Windows 10, which is running on my Apple Mac Pro. I dual boot macOS and Windows. but yes you are correct, I have stock clocks on my Xeons. It is Apple hardware I think that makes it rather troublesome to overclock (or alter in any way really), no way to get into anything similar to a BIOS setup. otherwise the CPUs are the same, the CPUs I have are the same that would go into any PC using a chipset that could take the CPU. so I'd say its not that the CPUs are locked, its the ecosystem they are installed in that is effectively locking them. The only difference is my dual CPU system requires them to be delidded where the single CPU system keeps the IHS on. I read up on overclocking these guys many years ago but it became too convoluted for me to really follow through with it. Perhaps if I revisit it now-a-days with the knowledge I've gained over the years, perhaps it wont sound so "greek" to me anymore lol. These CPUs are very competetive multi core wise, but single core they are showing their age. I do wish I could easily overclock them like on a PC system

 

[dhrag5t]

These CPUs are very competetive multi core wise, but single core they are showing their age.

On stock, yes, the single core performance isn't that great anymore. But an overclock to 4.2+ GHz can definitely breathe new life into it. I managed to get mine to about 4.4/4.5 on a single core with Throttlestop and the single thread Passmark benchmark results beats a Ryzen 5 1600, which is one of the most lauded mid-range CPU's in the tech community. Unfortunately not many people know about Throttlestop - even I was stuck at stock speeds on an OEM board until a few weeks ago when I discovered this forum. With the right overclock, X58 chips are still very relevant in 2019.

 

[SamirD]

1. I do. You need to understand the weight of it... read some benchmarks.
2. Yeah, if the machine is a internet and wp box, a potato would run it. Clearly we arent talking about that..seriously.
3.
Please read up on it. I dont have the time to web search the details. But you have a knowledge gap here.

It isnt ludacris at all.. again, please go find some benchmarks... there is a glass ceiling when using older cpus to game at 1080p or less. The cpu has less work to do at a higher res. Apologies I cant link...I'm mobile...so you'll have to go look for yourself.

Something is better than nothing...obviously, but that isnt the point here.

No perfect benchmarks, I agree. Some are farther from perfect than others. Pass mark isnt generally held as a good one from those in the know, however.

Can we stop now please? We obviously disagree about some things here and it won't be resolved. You dont want look up benches and I dont have the time.njust know that thise old cpus while they will work will be notably slower than modern cpus and hold back gaming at 1080p. I also feel like I'm throwing shade on these cpus for little reason but to prove my points to a random user. Cheers.

I think you have invested a little too much in benchmarks. Benchmarks don't change the tech or how things actually work. They do, however, attempt to reveal how changes affect performance, and even then the results are still interpreted.

I don't think I have a knowledge gap anywhere when it comes to computers. I've been in it far too long, almost from the beginning, and have seen changes in hardware that the last 10 years can't shine a candle to. And at the end of the day, the fundamentals are still there--the instruction set, the cpu and it's paths to the rest of the system, and of course the sub-systems like memory and video that have evolved with innovations in engineering.

Someone above just posted that they can game at well over 1080p, so I don't know where you're getting this '<1080p' thing from. Unless there's a technical flaw in the architecture, which wouldn't surprise me as there's been hiccups along the way to get us to where we are today, there is no logical or hardware reason for your statement to be true.

For me, that is the point. The reason gaming exists today is because the price point came down. If you had to build the $10k+ machines I was running quake on (when they weren't doing real work), pc gaming would still be a niche dominated by those of us that remember it being a niche and not mainstream. And it still is an expensive hobby because these machines are more expensive than consoles by far, and yet the low-end is accessible to those who otherwise wouldn't be able to. Telling everybody that you need to spend more and buy faster is just a waste of money, especially is one doesn't have it. Recently, I'm see so many people parting out rigs because they can't afford what they bought--no gaming for them anymore. It's like telling every new driver they need to have a Ferrari to corner hard when a Miata does that quite well with stellar value.

In the know? Who is 'in the know' versus everyone else that reads benchmarks? This is starting to just sound like some sort of millennial gamer elitist mantra.

I think you nailed it on the head that you're 'throwing shade on these cpus for little reason but to prove my points to a random user.' You're not going to 'skool me' on this because I know far more than you do about the fundamentals of machine architecture, and there's several actual, real-world examples of machines that are what I would call pretty decent at the task and an excellent value doing what they can for so little invested.

 

[Aaron_Henderson]

I still love my POS X58 system...I spent about $300 all in, a few years ago now...and haven't really done much with it since then. Still lets me play any game I want...I've been itching to upgrade only just now because I live with roomates, and the thing is loud because of all the heat from the 290X and CPU. I don't care about upgrading performance much...I've been planning on a W3680 for forever, just haven't really cared. My monitor is 75Hz 1080P, most games do that with ease. I don't know, I get 110-130 FPS in Quake Champions, the only online game I really play, and I don't get wrecked. I do just fine. With my $300 computer that is now worth half that...and a $30 monitor, $20 mech keyboard, $20 studio monitors, $10 aio cooler...I'm a cheapskate. The only things I bought new were the PSU and Corsair Katar/QCK+. Also...all prices I mentioned are Canadian...so it would be significantly less in USD. Also, my cheap computer leaves me more money for other things I probably wouldn't have, like 15+ games consoles and decent game collection...basically more computers...nevermind.

 

[Retrorockit]

For anyone who is interested there are several videos posted throughout this thread comparing overclocked X58 to newer CPUs with modern games used as examples. They're not specifically TS unlocked CPU systems, so results will vary somewhat, but the testing is done at several resolutions and you can decide for yourself if this is for you.
When I was answering Dell questions at Tomshardware there were a lot of people who needed an inexpensive computing solution that wouldn't limit them too much on what they could use it for. Young people, engineering students, people with a family to support, small business owners, a 2nd computer for the kids to use. The Dell T3500 X58 workstation still checks off a lot of boxes for a lot of people. 6C/12T, 48GB RAM, ECC support if needed, PS2 mouse support, RAID BIOS, a very simple 4GHz overclocking process, <$100 price. At that price point I doubt if 4K monitors are in the budget, or the GPU to run them. But they could be added later.

 

[sepheronx]

Wait, is it official that ECC memory memory works on these T-3500's?

 

[Retrorockit]

They really are workstations designed for engineering and technical applications. ECC and RAID in the BIOS.

https://buerorechner24.de/mediafiles/Sonstiges/pdf-Dateien%20Workstations%20Spec%20Sheets%20Bedienungsanleitungen/Dell/T3500/Precision%20T7600%20Service%20Manual.pdf

Dells require low density x64 RAM but ECC is good to go. Many of the dual CPU machines also have native BIOS support for SAS full duplex HDD, and SSD drives. Might need an adapter to get that on a T3500.

 

[sepheronx]

I wanna get 32gb of 1600 ram for my t3500 but they are pricy atm.

 

[Retrorockit]

I wanna get 32gb of 1600 ram for my t3500 but they are pricy atm.

3 channel RAM and 32GB does not compute. 30GB (3x8,and 3x2) or 36GB (3x8 and 3x4) makes more sense. They will run at 1333 speed. ECC will add some latency also. 6x4GB 1333 ECC would probably be the most cost effective solution.

 

[sepheronx]

3 channel RAM and 32GB does not compute. 30GB (3x8,and 3x2) or 36GB (3x8 and 3x4) makes more sense. They will run at 1333 speed. ECC will add some latency also. 6x4GB 1333 ECC would probably be the most cost effective solution.

Darn your right. 36

Fat fingers on phone don't work

 

[dhrag5t]

At that price point I doubt if 4K monitors are in the budget, or the GPU to run them. But they could be added later.

4K panels are pretty affordable now too. For around $200 you could pick up a 40-43 inch TV from Walmart. Great picture and the input lag isn't that bad either. The end of the mining craze has also resulted in a lot of cheap GPU's flooding the used market - something like a RX 580 can be found for around $100 - $120 and can run titles at 4k 30fps on medium-high settings with AA off (you don't really need it at that resolution anyways). It's a great time to be a budget PC gamer.

I wanna get 32gb of 1600 ram for my t3500 but they are pricy atm.

Check the used market. FB marketplace, craigslist, letgo/offerup etc. A lot of gamers are upgrading to new Ryzen systems and usually will part out their old systems, so you can usually find them letting go of their older DDR3 for really cheap. I replaced a bunch of assorted 2GB and 4GB Samsung and Hynix sticks on my T3500 with 3x8GB Corsair sticks bought used off Facebook from a guy parting out his Ivy Bridge gaming rig.

The better RAM has allowed me to get a very stable 4.26 Ghz overclock, compared with 4.13 Ghz with the mix and match RAM sticks I was running before. Small difference, but it's nice knowing you've squeezed everything you can out of an aging but still capable x58 platform.

 

[Susquehannock]

Wait, is it official that ECC memory memory works on these T-3500's?

Yes and no. Only unregistered (non-buffered) ECC modules or non-ECC ("regular") for the T3500 as per the Dell owner's manual, and my own personal testing.

Now, if you want to use registered ECC (buffered) modules which are far less expensive the T5500 with it's Intel 5520 chipset (instead of X58) is your choice. However, those require two QPI processors even in single CPU operation. None of which are known to be unlocked. So no overclocking with TS in T5500 unfortunately. All of this I have confirmed by testing in my own systems.

 

[Retrorockit]

8GHz Dell T3500 X5675 Xeon @ CPUZ. YES THIS IS TOTALLY BOGUS!!! The benchmark score is unremarkable.
But it's nice that the bad guys took on a Dell overclock project!

Intel Xeon X5675 @ 8083.4 MHz - CPU-Z VALIDATOR

[rmqzju] Validated Dump by T3500 (2016-06-03 02:17:01) - MB: Dell 09KPNV - RAM: 24576 MB

valid.x86.fr

 

[juiseman]

Man, I think I'll be getting a T3500 next payday.....time to hit up ebay

Anybody had success with throttle stop with HP Z400's or Z420's with 2600's series Cpu's?

 

[Susquehannock]

Man, I think I'll be getting a T3500 next payday.....time to hit up ebay.

T3500 are a great buy right now. I have kept an eye on pricing. 3 to 3.5 years ago a complete box could be had for $60 delivered (location dependent). Then it became widely known T3500 can be used for a gaming rig and prices approached $200. Complete boxes are back down below $80 delivered again.

Use the older low end processor they usually come with. Install an SSD, decent GPU, and Win10. Then update to latest BIOS *and* Intel chipset driver (if not already) so it's compatible with 32nm Westmeres. Now install some inexpensive used 2gb RAM modules, and $40 W3680 CPU. Easy 4.0ghz with TS. You're set. Total should be $500-$600.

Not going to keep pace with modern systems in benchmarks, obviously. Do we play benchmarks? No. Like RetroRockit said a few posts back. The difference between 200fps and 130fps is imperceivable. A lot to be said for 'good enough'. If you run into any roadblocks there are plenty of great people here and the Dell Workstation club thread to help you out.

 

[dhrag5t]

Man, I think I'll be getting a T3500 next payday.....time to hit up ebay

Anybody had success with throttle stop with HP Z400's or Z420's with 2600's series Cpu's?

Before buying a T3500 and upgrading all the components, I'd look around the local used market for people selling their old x58 systems. The T3500 is fine but the locked motherboard will limit your overclock to 4 or 4.1 Ghz, compared with an unlocked motherboard that would allow you to change voltages to get to to 4.5 or even 4.6 Ghz if you get lucky. You'd also be able to overclock the RAM, and some x58 boards also allow you to boot from NVMe drives (AFAIK you can't do this on a T3500).

 

[Retrorockit]

The Z400 is OK. It's an ATX layout too so case swapping becomes possible. You will want the newer 6 RAM slot board, not the early 4 slot version. A little PSU wiring mod is needed for a PSU swap. HP stayed with a 4 pin CPU connector and added a couple 12V. lines to the MB 24 pin plug. TS works through Windows. With an unlocked CPU it can raise Voltage, and multiplier.

If you can find a deal on an unlocked X58 system that would be good. But last time I looked decent unlocked X58 bare MB were going for $150. There have been whole overclocked T3500 systems built for less than that ( minus GPU ).
Aaron_Henderson did a Z400 in this, and/or the Dell workstation Owners thread.
As far as the Z420 goes it has it's fans as a gaming rig.

HP Z420 Gaming Computer and Hardware Upgrade Guide - Green PC Gamers

The HP Z420 has all the base components to be converted in to a high end gaming computer. HP Z420’s are a single socket Xeon based workstations. They have a standard 400W Power Supply with an optional 600W Power Supply. We have a video that will show you how to upgrade the power supply if…

www.greenpcgamers.com

You can look here for newer unlocked Xeons to try. None of the 2 CPU versions will be unlocked.

Xeons with an open multiplier

Multiplier-unlocked Xeons according to overclocking results from HWBOT: Bloomfield: W3570 (source) W3580 (uncertain) Gulftown: W3680 W3690 Gainestown: W5580 (most probably not unlocked, despite of one CPU-Z validation; please see also...

forums.servethehome.com

 

[Susquehannock]

Nope. Cannot do any of that on the T3500. Too bad since bare boards go for about $40. A good X58 board would be nice. In three years I have not been able to find any deals that jumped out at me. Keeping an eye on the X58 overclocking threads the ASUS Sabertooth seem to be a popular mid-level board at about $130 current pricing. Upper end enthusiast boards like the EVGA classified and ASUS Rampage 3, among others, are going to cost $250.-$300.

 

[Retrorockit]

Even the slightly unlocked Dell/Alienware MB bring about $100. They're made by MSI and I don't think they OC any better than the workstation. Last T3500 I bought was in a bundle with 3 other computers. Paid $80 for the 4 of them. To do BCLK overclocking you will also need 1600,or 2000 speed DDR3. The 1333 ECC DDR3 these run isn't so popular anymore. Susquehannock rescues his from the dumpster.
But it's definitely not the same thing. Cheaper, simpler to do, and possibly more reliable due to stressing the subsystems less. Basically, overclocking locked BIOS computers is pretty much a separate hobby form normal overclocking. If you already have the good X58 stuff, and the experience to use it, there's not much reason to switch to this. But if some Dell or HP 1 CPUworkstation lands in your lap there's some pretty good potential there.

 

[ManGupta]

Before buying a T3500 and upgrading all the components, I'd look around the local used market for people selling their old x58 systems. The T3500 is fine but the locked motherboard will limit your overclock to 4 or 4.1 Ghz, compared with an unlocked motherboard that would allow you to change voltages to get to to 4.5 or even 4.6 Ghz if you get lucky. You'd also be able to overclock the RAM, and some x58 boards also allow you to boot from NVMe drives (AFAIK you can't do this on a T3500).

I boot windows from NVME Solid State drive on Dell Precision T3500.





But if I had budget I would buy Ryzen 3950X system.

However in terms of Cost to Performance Ratio, Dell Precision T3500 is still very much relevant.

 

[dhrag5t]

I boot windows from NVME Solid State drive on Dell Precision T3500.


View attachment 134991View attachment 134992View attachment 134993


But if I had budget I would buy Ryzen 3950 system.

However in terms of Cost to Performance Ratio, Dell Precision T3500 is still very much relevant.

Wow, I did not know that was possible. That’s actually great news as I was looking at upgrading the HDD on my T3500 to an SSD.

Could you describe the process and parts required for this? Or a link to a previous discussion on this.

 

[ManGupta]

Wow, I did not know that was possible. That’s actually great news as I was looking at upgrading the HDD on my T3500 to an SSD.

Could you describe the process and parts required for this? Or a link to a previous discussion on this.

[Guide] NVMe-boot for systems with legacy BIOS and UEFI board (DUET-REFIND)

UEFI DUET Installer - REFIND boot manager PREVIEW ATTENTION! By using these files YOU WILL BE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY TYPE OF DAMAGE !!! • Current download link for DUET (EDK2015) with REFIND included       PROPRIETARY FILE SYSTEM     In case the OS uses some...

www.win-raid.com

read page one and then from around page 20 as the info you need is on page one but it was updated at around the same time that the posts between about pages 17 - 23 were made so some of page one post dates quite a lot of what appears to come after it.

ALL OF THE BELOW ASSUMES YOU KNOW HOW TO START AND USE THE COMMAND PROMPT! • 1) Open the Windows Command Prompt with "Run as Administrator" option at the same location you unpacked the DUET to (obviously). • 2) CD into the DUET_UDK2017_REFIND folder if you haven't already. EXAMPLE: "cd C:\DUET_UDK2017_REFIND" (without quotes). Enter. • 3) Note down the drive letter of the USB flash drive. • 4) Type "CreateUSB Drive_Letter: FORMAT" (without quotes). Example: "CreateUSB.cmd K: FORMAT" (without quotes) - (K: is the drive letter of the USB flash drive.) This command will format the selected USB flash drive and set up the MBR boot code and the Boot Sector necessary to boot DUET. • 5) Safely Remove and Replug the USB flash drive. (crucial). • 6) Type "CreateUSB Drive_Letter: DUET" (without quotes). Example: "CreateUSB K: DUET" (without quotes). • 7) OPTIONAL: REFIND BOOT MANAGER: (this is needed to "easily" boot the Windows installer) Type "CreateUSB Drive_Letter: REFIND" (without quotes). Example: "CreateUSB K: REFIND" (without quotes. This will copy all the REFIND files to the USB in order to have a GUI that can boot things, such as Windows). • 8) Once done remove the USB flash drive. • 9) Plug in the USB flash drive on the target system and set "Boot from USB" as the first option in your system's BIOS Boot order option.

Note: The Pcie NVME Adapter donot work in every pcie slot, you need to try one by one to see in which slot it is being recoganised

3.38US $ 25% OFF|H1111z Add On Cards Pcie To M2/m.2 Adapter/pci Express M.2 Ssd Pcie Adapter M.2 Nvme/m2 Pcie Adapter Computer Expansion Cards M2 - Add On Cards & Controller Panels - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Note: You will have to do fresh install of Windows (or any other Operating System) on NVME SSD.


PS: After PCIE NVME Drive if you also add a PCIE USB3 adapter, Your Dell Precision T3500 becomes at par with any modern system.

Good thing about T3500 Motherboard is that it has many PCIE Slots.

Dell Workstation Owners Club

I've never heard of that HDD cage. But the move to 2.5" SSD has made it redundant I think. Dell's use of the big blue drive caddys always made their drive cages use a lot of space. I picked up a T7400/ Precision 690 SLI riser card installation kit for $20 NOS. Not the card but the raised rear...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Susquehannock]

Even the slightly unlocked Dell/Alienware MB bring about $100. They're made by MSI and I don't think they OC any better than the workstation. Last T3500 I bought was in a bundle with 3 other computers. Paid $80 for the 4 of them. To do BCLK overclocking you will also need 1600,or 2000 speed DDR3. The 1333 ECC DDR3 these run isn't so popular anymore. Susquehannock rescues his from the dumpster.

That is true about 1333 modules. Watching pricing the 1600mhz modules seem to be more common and often less expensive. Might be a good option for those who want to BLCK. One thing to watch for buying cheaper T3500 boxes is the older ones came with 1066mhz modules.

Another big thing that I said before which bears mentioning for those new to the discussion is stay away from 'N series' boxes for networks. Often priced to sell. As I understand Dell had to "windows cripple" non-windows bundled machines due to Microsoft licensing agreements. No personal experience, but Windows on T3500 N series is certainly doable. Just not easy. One way is to change the motherboard. Another is change the service tag then do a factory reset on the BIOS. This page explains the procedure.

I do get my T3500 free. Not from dumpster really. Friend at a CAD design firm diverts warranty expired hardware to me instead of the recycler. Larger companies update at end of warranty period as matter of course and cannot be bothered with trying to re-purpose or re sell. I was recently given a set of Dell/Toshiba enterprise level 4tb drives that are perfectly fine except for having a little over three year use. Would imagine recycling companies make some decent money selling things like this.

 

[Retrorockit]

I came across this tidbit at OCN X58 Xeon Club.
"i7 980, 980x,990x and their counterparts W3670, 3680 and 3690 have "open" ram dividers too, you can go up to 1:18, westmere xeons are stuck to 1:10, the X5679 even to 1:8"

Since Throttlestop was originally intended for laptop undervolting maybe it's missing a setting that would allow faster RAM timings. This would help even things up compared to the BCLK method if it's true. I suppose the "easiest" way to test this would be a TS overclock on a an unlocked MB and see what the RAM settings can do at the stock BCLK speed.

I have no experience with RAM timings, so I'm not sure what 1:18 multiplier equals in RAM speed at the standard BCLK of 133. But 18x133= 2394 which looks like a modern DDR3 spec to me.
Also ASFIK W3670 isn't an unlocked multiplier CPU, so would not be useful for TS overcloking anyway.

 

[bebop350]

I came across this tidbit at OCN X58 Xeon Club.
"i7 980, 980x,990x and their counterparts W3670, 3680 and 3690 have "open" ram dividers too, you can go up to 1:18, westmere xeons are stuck to 1:10, the X5679 even to 1:8"

Since Throttlestop was originally intended for laptop undervolting maybe it's missing a setting that would allow faster RAM timings. This would help even things up compared to the BCLK method if it's true. I suppose the "easiest" way to test this would be a TS overclock on a an unlocked MB and see what the RAM settings can do at the stock BCLK speed.

I have no experience with RAM timings, so I'm not sure what 1:18 multiplier equals in RAM speed at the standard BCLK of 133. But 18x133= 2394 which looks like a modern DDR3 spec to me.
Also ASFIK W3670 isn't an unlocked multiplier CPU, so would not be useful for TS overcloking anyway.

Interesting. No experience in RAM dividers either, unfortunately, but I'm curious what potential there is with an open divider.

On the topic of RAM, I want to throw it out there that (apparently) adding RAM can increase boot time. My board now gets stuck on post for 60sec or so. Doesn't bother me, but boot time is important to some people, so I figured I'd mention it.

@unclewebb, is it possible to turn off speedstep/power savings with MSR or does Throttlestop accomplish it via a reg key in Windows? I looked through the Intel MSR doc, but couldn't find anything helpful. I'd like to stop the CPU from downclocking (some games run smoother this way) but have no speedstep option in the BIOS.