The unsatisfying state of air cooling solutions on the market (Case/GPU/NT) - idea as pic

[sneekypeet]

Even the most efficient air cooler found in sneekypeets tests is ineffective at properly cooling the CPU when flow of cool air through the case is inadequate.

I test open air to eliminate that factor...thanks for trying to change the way I do things though If you were commenting on the "normal" user, not all run panels on either....too many variable to make such a blanket statement.

 

[Punx223]

I test open air to eliminate that factor...thanks for trying to change the way I do things though

Why can I not Quote Bill's signature?

I feel like he needs to take a quick dose of his own "education" he apparently thinks everyone else needs.

 

[Mr McC]

I test open air to eliminate that factor...thanks for trying to change the way I do things though If you were commenting on the "normal" user, not all run panels on either....too many variable to make such a blanket statement.

Where can I read your tests? I am in the market for a new cooler for an upcoming rig, looking at the Mugen Rev. B, Fuma 2 and the Noctua Chromax U12s, or something of that ilk.

 

[sneekypeet]

Where can I read your tests? I am in the market for a new cooler for an upcoming rig, looking at the Mugen Rev. B, Fuma 2 and the Noctua Chromax U12s, or something of that ilk.

Anything at Tweaktown, tested in the last ten years or so, is mine.

 

[Mr McC]

Anything at Tweaktown, tested in the last ten years or so, is mine.

Then I am well acquainted with your articles, thank you.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I test open air to eliminate that factor...thanks for trying to change the way I do things though

Unlike you, I don't pretend to know all about you. I was not trying to change anything. But thanks for illustrating to us all that your testing does not reflect real world experience - which would include the case's cooling and how it affects over all cooling of the entire computer, not just the CPU.

I feel like he needs to take a quick dose of his own "education" he apparently thinks everyone else needs.

Did you note the title of this thread? It does just say "CPU cooler". But it seems some here want to ignore everything else, focus only on the CPU cooler and insist that proves their point. It doesn't.

I don't know why you can't quote me - but before you try to educate me, please note once again, that the OP was talking about case cooling too. Testing a CPU cooler in the open air is indeed an effective way to test a CPU cooler by itself. But the CPU cooler alone is just one component in a computer's cooling solution. Testing a CPU cooler in the open air does not reflect how it will cool within an entire cooling solution in a properly configured case. A point I have been making since my first post in this thread - but some here have been trying to ignore.

I say again, the most efficient cooler will be ineffective if the case does not extract the heat the CPU cooler tosses up.

 

[sneekypeet]

Unlike you, I don't pretend to know all about you. I was not trying to change anything. But thanks for illustrating to us all that your testing does not reflect real world experience - which would include the case's cooling and how it affects over all cooling of the entire computer, not just the CPU.

Edited to save the squabble. You are right bill, your opinion is best, I'm an idiot! Out...peace

 

[Punx223]

Unlike you, I don't pretend to know all about you. I was not trying to change anything. But thanks for illustrating to us all that your testing does not reflect real world experience - which would include the case's cooling and how it affects over all cooling of the entire computer, not just the CPU.
Did you note the title of this thread? It does just say "CPU cooler". But it seems some here want to ignore everything else, focus only on the CPU cooler and insist that proves their point. It doesn't.

I don't know why you can't quote me - but before you try to educate me, please note once again, that the OP was talking about case cooling too. Testing a CPU cooler in the open air is indeed an effective way to test a CPU cooler by itself. But the CPU cooler alone is just one component in a computer's cooling solution. Testing a CPU cooler in the open air does not reflect how it will cool within an entire cooling solution in a properly configured case. A point I have been making since my first post in this thread - but some here have been trying to ignore.

I say again, the most efficient cooler will be ineffective if the case does not extract the heat the CPU cooler tosses up.

I could spend the time explaining all of the ways you are wrong based on a lifetime of thermal engineering experience coupled with a full understanding of mechanical and thermal dynamics...

But for the sake of my sanity and your ego, I will just point to your signature and chuckle.

At the end of the day, you contradict yourself based on the sheer fact that you tell others that they cannot create facts, while you "somewhat carefully" cultivate portions of fact and used your claimed "real-world experience" to shove your narrative and non-widely accepted principals as facts.

You exude a note of arrogance from the fact that you have a median level understanding of physics and use buzzwords in some scenarios to create your story of why you are right.

However standard logic and scientific physical properties dictate that much of what you say is no more than your attempt at what I can only assume is a hyperinflated ego or thinly veiled hyperbole.

Please if you are going to promote yourself as an authority on such things at least have the proper widely accepted scientific data available to support your argument, otherwise your statements are relegated to being yet another "keyboard cowboy"

Have fun, I'm out of this dumpster fire. H/T

 

[Mr McC]

I say again, the most efficient cooler will be ineffective if the case does not extract the heat the CPU cooler tosses up.

That is a truism. Moreover, it would be difficult to set up a "standard" case as everybody has a different idea of what that should entail, and obviously any comparative results would be skewed, given the diversity of results between different sites based on different testing methodologies. Indeed this is the case as things stand, without even getting into local meteorological conditions at the time of testing. I think that open-air testing is fine, anybody buying and fitting a cooler should know enough to realise that good case airflow is vital. I agree with you to the extent that it is not something to be ignored, but it is something that should be assumed.

 

[Punx223]

That is a truism. Moreover, it would be difficult to set up a "standard" case as everybody has a different idea of what that should entail, and obviously any comparative results would be skewed, given the diversity of results between different sites based on different testing methodologies. Indeed this is the case as things stand, without even getting into local meterological conditions at the time of testing. I think that open-air testing is fine, anybody buying and fitting a cooler should know enough to realise that good case airflow is vital. I agree with you to the extent that it is not something to be ignored, but it is something that should be assumed.

This, so much this.... every case is different, so how can anybody ever have a fair comparison in any enclosed environment.

This is why in lab testing we have "control tests"

 

[Bill_Bright]

This, so much this.... every case is different, so how can anybody ever have a fair comparison in any enclosed environment.

Exactly!!!!! Maybe if you had read the entire thread to understand what has been said on all sides instead of joining just to criticize another, you would have noted that this thread is NOT about comparing CPU coolers. AND you have realized that case cooling is part of this discussion too - as mentioned by the OP.

You say I am wrong and then proclaim to have a lifetime of thermal engineering experience. Fine! Then please tell us why and how case cooling is NOT a factor in CPU cooling.

 

[mtcn77]

This, so much this.... every case is different, so how can anybody ever have a fair comparison in any enclosed environment.

This is why in lab testing we have "control tests"

For starters, restricted airflow tests will only emulate slower fan rpm which is common to some websites' test methodology.

 

[Bill_Bright]

For starters, restricted airflow tests will only emulate slower fan rpm which is common to some websites' test methodology.

I agree. It is also common to most normal users' computers - taking me back to my "real world" point. You have to have good air flow through the case. And that is achieved by proper fan setups, and good cable management too.

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to budget for the best case, a CPU and the highest rated CPU cooler too - that is even if they buy a CPU that does not include an OEM cooler. However, many self-builders and custom PC builder buy CPUs from AMD and Intel that come with OEM coolers. And despite what many here want everyone to believe, those OEM coolers are very capable at keeping those CPUs properly cooler AS LONG AS case cooling is properly set up. Yes, if you are over-clocking, the OEM cooler may not suffice. But if you are overclocking, is that the CPU you would buy? Are you the poster child example of the normal user? I think not.

The point I have been trying to get across here is the computer's cooling is a "system". It is NOT just about the CPU cooler. It is not just about the case. The OP started this thread talking about the CPU, the case and GPU cooling too. And other devices need proper cooling - like the chipset, RAM, VRMs and drives. System cooling must address them all!

Buying the most efficient CPU cooler does NOT address the big picture. And the OP made this thread about the big picture, not just the CPU. I have been trying to address the big picture. Others don't want to and prefer to lash out with personal insults instead. And I think that is sad.

 

[8BitZ80]

The effect of hot air rising is completely irrelevant as soon as a fan is involved. I really wish people would stop regurgitating this little bit of common nonsense.

I've studied Thermodynamics and did an entire honors dissertation on solar-powered thermal systems. I'm not an idiot to how this stuff works and I can confirm that yes, hot air rises. And that has a big impact on performance of horizontal-flow cooling systems. External air-con condenser units can get away with it because the fan is so large in proportion to the unit itself and there's nowhere for air to stagnate. Completely different story for an ATX case with a rear-exhaust setup, because the hot air just stagnates inside the top of the case if there's no top-exhaust fan. It's possible to push it out the back, but that's more difficult and would require more fans than you'd currently be led to believe. One or two fans doesn't magically make hot air disappear.

 

[mtcn77]

And I think that is sad.

You know what they say: tough luck.

It's possible to push it out the back, but that's more difficult and would require more fans than you'd currently be led to believe. One or two fans doesn't magically make hot air disappear.

I wonder if we could put cardboard vents to even out the flow diagram into individual components. It will probably cause vibration due to suction venturi effect, but it should be easier if the cpu and gpu point in perpendicular directions. You just isolate them by putting a cardboard down in the middle and channel the gpu, at the top. The cpu vents out the back for instance.

You seperate out the 3d space into two 2d planes, x and y. I wonder whether it has been mentioned anywhere past btx.

 

[steen]

I hear you man! My Panaflos have been in service with me since 2005 or so. Lots of life left in them. I normally run them at 7v, it’s fairly quiet. At 12v I still hear my TY143 over them. They spent their first decade with me at a solid 12v. They are a bit loud at that point, no effs given though.

Yeah, I still use my Pana/Delta/Sunon Maglev/Sanyo Denki DBB (relubed to reduce chatter at lower PWM speed to insignificant on the Pana/Delta). I have two 135mm death ADDA DBB ticking away in PSUs I'll get around to replacing with 140s one day. Fan controller is fine ofc, but 7V direct I philosophically don't like.

On another note, it's a shame that people with acumen are drowned out too often by the usual suspects.

 

[freeagent]

No it doesn't! Some seem to think it is their opinion that determines the technical specifications for proper cooling. That's hogwash nonsense - if not total arrogance! The manufacturer determines that based on design, and the physical characteristics and properties of the materials used in construction. Neither you nor me get to decide what those specification are - and I haven't in this thread either.

What is adequate for you and me is a totally separate thing that may, or may not apply to others. If a Intel 8700K is pushing 70°C when taxed, and Intel has specified a maximum Tjunction temp of 100°C, then it is a technical fact that that CPU is getting adequate cooling - even though you (and me) may prefer to see it never sit above 60°C for more than a couple seconds.

Just because a person's "opinion" may deem 70°C inadequate, that does not make it a technical fact.

Nor does sitting at 70°C automatically imply the CPU cooler does not "work" or is inadequate. If the case is not supplying a sufficient supply of cool air flowing through the case, then it is either a mismatched case for the components inside, or case cooling is improperly set up - either scenarios indicate a failure on the part of the user, not the CPU cooler.

Even the most efficient air cooler found in sneekypeets tests is ineffective at properly cooling the CPU when flow of cool air through the case is inadequate.

Now if your personal opinion dictates that your CPU temp must never breach the 30°C threshold (as an arbitrary example), then that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion and I personally have no problem with that. And if you are shooting for lowest possible, that is fine too. But understand that is for bragging rights. Do not pretend that personal opinion applies across the board for everyone. For if that were even remotely true, there would be 100s of million of stock Dell, HP, Acer, Lenova and Apple unstable and/or throttled computers out there over heating and dying prematurely. And that is just not happening.

Neither are there millions and millions of AMD or Intel processors that come today with OEM coolers being recalled because their coolers don't work or are inadequate. That's not happening either.

Would I accept my 9700K sitting above 70°C for more than a few seconds? NO! But that's just my personal preference. In fact, when my temps start sitting above 60°C for longer than a few seconds, I start to investigate my cooling. Typically, it means I need to clean my filters. And typically, my temps sit well below 40°. But there are no expectations my CPU will run better, be more stable or last longer running at 40° than it would at 50°.

***


Huh? Aesthetics over performance? And "most people"? Ummm, no. What does fan size have to do with aesthetics? Are you saying an 80mm fan looks nicer than a 140mm fan? Or that a fan that looks nice can't perform too?

In the old days, cases typically came with 80mm fans (or often just one 80mm fan). Then 120mm became the norm. Today, most are 140mm. Some are even bigger. And I don't see where aesthetics come into play - especially since most people don't gawk in wide-eyed wonder at the interior of their cases. And, or course, larger fans are often preferred simply because they tend to be quieter since they can move the same (or more) amount of air while spinning slower - thus quieter.

I'm sorry if you took offence to my post. When I post about fans, heatsinks, etc.. I speak as an overclocker. Some folks are content with a mild overclock, and that's totally ok, but one day they will push for more. I run my system as fast as I can with linpack xtreme, and call it my 24/7. Of course it can go a bit higher with a lot of vcore, because this one is just that way. I tend to forget that not all forum goers are overclockers. My X58 is completely cooled with shitty blue coolermaster fans from a Stacker 830, 6 of em plus a helper inside. My True Spirit 140 Power is like wtf do0d. But it doesn't overheat unless I make it happen. I realise you can get better fans than my shitty blue coolermasters, but most people who don't know any better would use something similar. A lot of people are happy just using whatever came with their case. But in my Meshify, I'm not going to lie, at 12v its a bunch of hairdryers in a box. Although my 3900rpm 92x38 pushes the most out of all of my fans if I let it get anywhere near 12v. That one gets an LNA from my old D14.

Also, you cant be serious about thinking people don't stare inside their computers. Why do you think side panels came to be? RGB? People spend thousands on their rigs, of course they are going to stare at it. If they spend thousands on anything they are going to stare at it.

 

[Bill_Bright]

You know what they say: tough luck.

And I would accept that if this was a game of chance. But it is not. It is physics, technical realities and facts.

 

[mtcn77]

You have to have good air flow through the case. And that is achieved by proper fan setups, and good cable management too.

I'd inquire sneekypeet s talents into the matter, but generally you leave a major portion of the cooling capability once you come down to home computer noise levels.
Here are the charts from way back when: 2015
And here is the last year's recollection: 2019
Notice the older tests run between 30dBA and the newer ones are at 25. The new is also radiator benchmarked. I left out the 35 and 20, but they are also there.

One frame of reference I can bring to the table is, a super contender of the latest generation Scythe Kaze 1800 rpm 14cm fan pushes the same amount of air through a radiator next to a respectable rival, not the best though, Noiseblocker Eloop 1400 rpm 14cm fan at, respectively, 25 and 31.9dBA.
Head to head

 

[Bill_Bright]

but generally you leave a major portion of the cooling capability once you come down to home computer noise levels.

Not sure what you are trying to point out with those charts. I do note, however and never have disputed that there generally is - with some notable exceptions - a consensus that when you decrease noise levels, you risk increasing heat. But that does automatically suggest you cross thresholds into overheating or "hot" scenarios. Just because you might increase temps, or are even likely to increase temps by 10°C or even more, that does NOT automatically mean your computer will become unstable, throttle back in performance, or decrease life expectancy. Without knowing and understanding the base line for that specific setup, any suggestion, one way or the other, is just speculation.

I note, for example, there are many HTPCs that are "silent running" - totally passive (no fans at all) cooling. And they run fine. And there are other PCs with fans that run extremely quiet, but still maintain temps well within the devices specified temperature operating range. And that is without radiators - which are not typically used, except by enthusiasts. That is, they are exceptions, and not the rule makers.

 

[freeagent]

Or you can just move so much air that it cools that warm air before it leaves the case

Im that guy that chases those c's, don't mind me. Just pokin the bear

 

[mtcn77]

I have another, this time the best against each other:

• Thermalright TY-147A SQ: 41.1cfm@37.5dBA vs.
• Scythe Kaze Flex 140 1800rpm PWM RGB: 43.4cfm@35dBA Old versus new

 

[eidairaman1]

IIRC ATX was laid out for front to read on case fairflow, then once later standards came fans up top and bottom were added. Intake front and bottom, exhaust top and rear. And original heatsinks were just a milled block with no fan then a fan was later added top down facing the heatsink, then the heatpipe was created to allow coolers to have more cooling fins to dissipate heat to the atmosphere more efficiently.

I have no problems with the way my rig is setup for temperatures.

By the way the A6-3650 i fixed a few weeks ago was caked in dust, once dust was removed it is running ok without shut downs.

 

[eidairaman1]

"In the mind of a " Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering (MEE), 15+ years of designing in the field...no It does not.

We should never stop innovation. Just because something is good enough, doesn't mean it can't be improved.

You really need to stop with these arguments how does any of that help anyone. There are like 2 pages of your massive text walls trying to prove how you are right. You have to be right so much even when it's just an opinion. I can feel your high-blood pressure, the big vein in your forehead about to rupture, because some disagrees with your opinion.

Guess I better add all my pedigree's to my sig so people think I'm important and be sure to mention it as often as possible.

Underlining words in your massive wall of text is supposed to make us all realize what a super genius you are?

The way you address people in here, argumentative all the time, cause so many people to just glaze over your ranting....and go "well there goes Bill on another rant to prove his way is the right way".

There is a high chance this will be deleted, but I'm glad to have said it, hope you saw it, and I'm sure I will find my way onto your ignore list. C'est la vie!

You belong in /r/IamVerySmart

It would be nice if Engineers thought about how to make stuff easier to maintain and be much more reliable/dependable without them always thinking on the cheap (not aimed at you specifically but majority of engineers think on the cheap)

 

[ZenZimZaliben]

It would be nice if Engineers thought about how to make stuff easier to maintain and be much more reliable/dependable without them always thinking on the cheap (not aimed at you specifically but majority of engineers think on the cheap)

Wouldn't that be nice. Sadly in a market driven by mass manufacturing, cutting costs is the basis of almost all designs.