Hang on, are you saying Intel is incompetent here?
I mean, they happily present a three, four, five year roadmap of what they have coming in terms of CPUs, so they must know well ahead of time what they need to do when they're designing these things, no?
Roadmaps have nothing to do with sockets, or for that matter even what is really coming. They get changed and updated all the time. I mean, if roadmaps actually were true, we'd have Intel 10nm on the deakop market by now. And roadmaps are a guide to what processor features we expect to see, but nothing to do with the sockets. The design teams are updating the sockets as they go along with the designs of the new CPUs. But there comes a point when you have to stop refining and get the product to market. Then you keep improving and eventually release a new iteration. It's how things work.
As this is exactly what AMD is being accused of here.
No, it is entirely different from what AMD is being accused of. There is no technical reason an X470 board, with the exact same socket with the exact same pinout shouldn't work with a 4000 series CPU. We know this because the 4000 CPUs will work with an X570 board with the same AM4 socket that is on the X470 motherboards. What AMD doing is 100% a software lockout. Intel has never done this.
So if AMD knows, Intel knows, no?
As such, you'd think they would have planned ahead and made sure their sockets can cope with future changes. I mean, Intel didn't change the LGA-2066 socket for years and it got more than two generations of CPUs. So why is it possible for Intel to do this on a high-end platform, but not on a consumer platform? I mean, they even managed to shoehorn in some "crappy" quad core CPUs into the platform with dual channel memory support and limited PCIe support, just because why not. Except they were a total disaster and a lot of boards don't even support those CPUs any more, but hey, it was all part of the master plan no?
There are some things you can't predict. You can't predict that you need to add an additional display output beyond the 3 you have now later on down the road, a display output that at the time wasn't really even popular and they weren't sure if it was going to take off. At the time they redesigned 1155 to 1150 displayport wasn't a popular connector, some dedicated cards still didn't even have it, so I doubt they were thinking about adding it to the iGPUs at the time.
Sure, it might not have been possible to go from 1155 to 1150, but what about onwards from there, did we really need three variations on the same socket, or was it possible for Intel to solve this more elegantly?
The 1150 to 1151 transition, maybe. An external Displayport connector fed off one of the other display outputs might have worked, but also been more expensive and complex for the board manufacturers. So if they wanted it in the prococessor directly, the signal for the displayport had to be added to the socket, and you can't just put video signal pins anywhere. You can't just have them right next to a power pin, crosstalk becomes an issue.
And the 1151 to 1151(300) transition was not possible to do any other way and maintain long lasting reliability. The number of power pins had to be increased to handle the new processors long term reliably. There is no doing this on the old socket pin-out. If they could have gotten 10nm going and increase the core counts without the 25-50% increases in power consumption, then they might have been able to do it with the old socket, but 10nm didn't happen.
My issues is that Intel always have their two CPUs per socket tick/tock crap defended, whereas AMD is now getting stick for screwing up their PR with regards to socket compatibility, without us knowing squat about the Ryzen 4000 series CPUs will bring. In reality, why aren't people angry with Intel when they clearly force people to upgrade their motherboards, based on technicalities sometimes.
Intel never pretends like their platforms have increased longevity compared to the competition. They never market that. Hell, they've been upfront about the tick/tock system since Nehalem. AMD on the other hand did market their platforms as having longer longevity than Intel. Their longterm compatibility with future processors was a selling point that they made.
There have also always been reasons for the new socket. Regardless of how minor you think they are, the reasons are facts. On the other hand, we know for a fact that AMD isn't using a new socket, and the 4000 CPUs should work with the older motherboards. The fact that they will work with X570 boards tells use that there is no reason they shouldn't work with X470 boards, they both use the same sockets, there was no changed between the two platforms other than the addition of PCI-E 4.0. Which even the 4000 CPUs are required to be backwards compatible with 3.0, so that isn't an issue.
At the end of the day, that is the point. Intel has been upfront about their strategy and it seems AMD now has lied about theirs. And that's why people are angry with AMD.
Well, with no idea at this point what Ryzen 4000 is going to Actually bring I think your points are slightly moot, if the simple bios argument is it then sure , I will argue that's shit but.
The fact is, it doesn't matter what the 4000 processors bring. We know they aren't using a new socket, and so there should be no technical reason they can't run on older boards. If it will run on X570 I see no reason it wouldn't run on X470. Can you come up with any reasons?
i still heartily disagree on a interposer, we will set that asside I have worked with OEM systems that retained socket's with differing intel cores.
I've seen mobile processors put in desktop motherboards with custom interposers. However, that doesn't help in the discussion.
We are talking about redesigns of the socket to aid in motherboard trace routing. There is no way you can solve that problem with an interposer in a consumer friendly marketable way. You're talking about, what, selling processors with interchangeable interposers that you expect the consumer to change depending on what motherboard they are putting the processor in? And also selling those interposers separately so people that want to put an older processor in a new board can buy one? Because that's the only solution we are talking about here where an interposer would work. The socket needed to be redesigned, there is no argument about that. You can't optimize pin layout in the socket to improve motherboard trace routing without redesigning the socket pinout.
So now we are talking about an interposer solution to having two different sockets supporting 4 generations of processors. So how do you expect that to work? If a consumer wants to put their 1150 CPU in an older 1155 motherboard, they'd need a super thick interposer to go between the 1150 CPU and the 1155 socket. Then that means the already designed stock cooling isn't going to work, because that whole mess would be too tall. But what about if someone wants to use an 1155 CPU in an 1150 motherboard, you need another super thick interposer that can be bought separately. The whole interposer solution just isn't feasible even if it would
technically work. To be clear, I'm not saying it wouldn't technically work, I'm saying it isn't feasible to bring to market.
Sure and I'm not excusing them for that.
But you are. You're entire argument is "Intel does it so AMD can to." You're missing the point, AMD was the chosen one, they were "supposed" to be better than Intel, and now it turns out they're worse.
However, something has clearly gone wrong in some people's heads, when they send threats to staff of a company based on a PR screw-up. Not saying anyone here did that, but some people did.
Obviously that's an extreme that should never happen, but you're argument that people don't have a right to be angry that AMD lied to them isn't valid either.
And Intel gets plenty of hate by the way. People got their pitchforks and torches out when Intel said CoffeeLake was going to need new motherboards, even when there is a perfectly valid reason for it. Hell, people are still bitching about that shit.
Anyway, this is my last post on the subject. I think I've said enough.
