NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti Founders Edition Pictured

[DeathtoGnomes]

WTF are you trying to say? What point are you trying to make with those convoluted sentences?

that is the million dollar question now, aint it?

 

[PowerPC]

that is the million dollar question now, aint it?

If you can't even rephrase it in a more coherent way, what should I expect from getting by figuring out the content of your post like Sherlock Holmes?

If you are implying that Nvidia and AMD are directly and illegally collaborating to increase prices, you better follow up with some proof for that. Besides that, they don't even really need that. They can already pretty much calculate what margins they can demand by just closely following what the other does (like they have done since forever). To lower prices, you just need to increase competition. Until that competition magically appears, we will have to live with this. How do you solve this problem? Breaking these companies up makes very little sense to me since the intellectual property needs to be concentrated to build something as complex as a GPU. You can't break them up and not cripple them in some way.

 

[Gmr_Chick]

I'm attributing the whole fuss about scalpers and limited supply/high demand to the current day fashion of 'everyone is special' / 'Entitlement generation'. Everyone must have the latest greatest, because otherwise you don't count or you're a lesser person, or something. I'm not sure how people expect to keep up that rat race and keep a healthy financial situation. That only happens on social media (or 'Teevee').

Not gonna lie, this pretty much sums up the whole DIY PC building "hobby" to me. I've felt that way about it ever since I got my start in the "hobby" with an FX-6100. It's like, if you don't have A or B, you're shit. Or if you have X or Y instead of A and B, you're shit. And finally, if you happen to have X and B, or A and Y, oh, yeah, you're also shit! It's too much, I tell you.

 

[bencrutz]

Who the fuck knows on what foundry what is made? It's a resource war, anyway.

every knowledgeable PC enthusiast?
NVIDIA ampere uses samsung's 8nm
AMD exclusively use TSMC 7nm to print their big navi GPUs, zen 3 cores and semi-custom consoles SoCs (PS 5 & xbox series s + x)

You need pretty much the same precious metals and workers for both. That's all in high demand right now, I would say, especially because of the new Consoles coming out. Would be more so, if it was on the same foundry, but it doesn't have to be to have an effect.

blame apple.
sony sold 155 million units PS 2 (the most successfull console, ever) within it's 12 year production
apple only sold 37.7 million iPhone 11 in H1 2020, you know 1st half, right? 6 months.

anyway, i don't think wafer is the issue.

 

[RandAlThor]

I thought Sony and MS were licensing the ZEN CPUs and GPUs (so they don't take AMD wafers) - they have to order them built from foundries when they want them themselves ?

 

[ratirt]

Wafer is not the issue and the supply of wafers are coming in. TSMC's revenue for this year or the last quarter was up 25%(if I'm remember correctly) Apple and AMD are the main takers for the 7nm wafers. Samsung's 8nm for NV is basically unoccupied by anything major except NV. So the question still remains where the hell all of this is going since we don't have anything at stock?
Would the reason be the end of a fiscal year? New budgets, new projects and tax returns which are damn huge. If that's true, and I think it is, we will have a lot GPUs January and that is where the scheduled stock still remains for NV. AMD said the same thing. January. For both companies is to open the year with a sales boom.

 

[Gmr_Chick]

Wafer is not the issue and the supply of wafers are coming in. TSMC's revenue for this year or the last quarter was up 25%(if I'm remember correctly) Apple and AMD are the main takers for the 7nm wafers. Samsung's 8nm for NV is basically unoccupied by anything major except NV. So the question still remains where the hell all of this is going since we don't have anything at stock?
Would the reason be the end of a fiscal year? New budgets, new projects and tax returns which are damn huge. If that's true, and I think it is, we will have a lot GPUs January and that is where the scheduled stock still remains for NV. AMD said the same thing. January. For both companies is to open the year with a sales boom.

I sure hope you're right about that...

 

[ratirt]

I sure hope you're right about that...

Is it a coincidence that both NV and AMD have a supply issue while on different nodes? Is it a coincidence that both NV and AMD are scheduled to have supply sorted by January? Is it a coincidence that both companies ending the fiscal year basically now? Closing on the projects and prepare budgets for next year?
You produce cards this year at the end and of course you pay shit load of tax that can be returned (due to profits being low and blame corona for it) and the graphics cards they have produced leave for the next year to get piles of cash for it and that would boost the next years income. Stocks for both are basically stable and with new year they will sky rock with all the sales.

 

[Vayra86]

How do you compare insurance to GPU business? Pretty much anyone can make up and sell an insurance policy. Only a handful of companies in the whole world can make GPUs. Only 2 companies can make high-end GPUs. In the whole world... Do you see any kind of shortage like that for insurance companies? Of course they can demand bigger margins...

They cán demand bigger margins indeed. Did I ever say they couldn't? I think you need to re-read what I said earlier about margins. My response was towards the supposed high cost of wafers driving prices up - they can easily still be lower. Of course they won't be. But they can.

The example I gave serves to show business can thrive with very tight margins as well.

 

[PowerPC]

Not gonna lie, this pretty much sums up the whole DIY PC building "hobby" to me. I've felt that way about it ever since I got my start in the "hobby" with an FX-6100. It's like, if you don't have A or B, you're shit. Or if you have X or Y instead of A and B, you're shit. And finally, if you happen to have X and B, or A and Y, oh, yeah, you're also shit! It's too much, I tell you.

This is a good life lesson to always take your own counsel on things. Your own opinion about yourself should always matter more than someone else's. Especially from some rich kids on the internet.

every knowledgeable PC enthusiast?
NVIDIA ampere uses samsung's 8nm
AMD exclusively use TSMC 7nm to print their big navi GPUs, zen 3 cores and semi-custom consoles SoCs (PS 5 & xbox series s + x)

I've read an article that stated Nvidia is trying to expand into other foundries right now. I think it was even TSMC. But the problem is that TSMC is overbooked right now. This also drives prices up at Samsung. That's how competition works.

 

[Gmr_Chick]

This is a good life lesson to always take your own counsel on things. Your own opinion about yourself should always matter more than someone else's. Especially from some rich kids on the internet.

Agreed. Alas, peer-pressure, as they say, is a mother fucker, and is even worse today thanks in part to social media and all these so-called tech youtubers (I can count the good ones on one hand) and is made worse by the companies that make the parts -- "true gamers" buy the ultimate crap while the "noobs and teh peasants" buy the "garbage" even though said garbage is still extremely capable of doing whatever needs doing.

 

[ratirt]

Agreed. Alas, peer-pressure, as they say, is a mother fucker, and is even worse today thanks in part to social media and all these so-called tech youtubers (I can count the good ones on one hand) and is made worse by the companies that make the parts -- "true gamers" buy the ultimate crap while the "noobs and teh peasants" buy the "garbage" even though said garbage is still extremely capable of doing whatever needs doing.

You said it bro. Totally agree. What I'm concerned about is, it might get even worse. Damn I hope I ain't right :/

 

[bencrutz]

I've read an article that stated Nvidia is trying to expand into other foundries right now. I think it was even TSMC. But the problem is that TSMC is overbooked right now. This also drives prices up at Samsung. That's how competition works.

still, i can't see a connection between latest console demand with ampere supply issue as they are in different foundry

 

[medi01]

By comparing only to 6800 I would argue the opposite, but let see other rdna2 chips first. Sure if amd want's they could cut down navi21 more and take a hit on revenue side just to be perf/$ king, but I really doubt we will see any lower end variants of that chip.

Have you checked what chips are in next gen consoles?

Is it a coincidence that both NV and AMD have a supply issue while on different nodes? Is it a coincidence that both NV and AMD are scheduled to have supply sorted by January?

NV has "supply issues" because it actually doesn't want to sell 3080 for $700, but 3070 cannot compete with Big Navi, so here is the trainwreck between 3070 and 3090 (both are quite availablea, although even 3070 costs more than 700 euro, mind you).

AMD has "supply issues" because it just has finalized design of its GPU and demand is very strong, boosted by a number of reasons, from AMD being back into high end GPUs, to AMD lastly beating Intel even at gaming.

 

[PowerPC]

still, i can't see a connection between latest console demand with ampere supply issue as they are in different foundry

I explained that in my first post, dude. Foundries can't expand and contract at will. They can't just double their workforce and output one day and fire half of the workers when they don't need them. Hiring is often an even bigger problem than firing. They have to allocate limited manpower that they do have to certain production like consoles, which drives prices up for anything else. It could even lead to prices skyrocketing in other foundries because other companies may try to move their orders to them from that console foundry. I've worked in different manufacturing companies before and that was pretty much the lay of the land.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

This is a good life lesson to always take your own counsel on things. Your own opinion about yourself should always matter more than someone else's. Especially from some rich kids on the internet.


I've read an article that stated Nvidia is trying to expand into other foundries right now. I think it was even TSMC. But the problem is that TSMC is overbooked right now. This also drives prices up at Samsung. That's how competition works.

Well Nvidia also kind of dropped the ball when they tried to flex on TSMC by threatening to go to Samsung because its a cheaper node, so they could release Ampere for cheaper MSRP. Now they are back tracking that and trying to get their Ampere refresh and Ti cards done with TSMC because Samsungs process is doo doo.

still, i can't see a connection between latest console demand with ampere supply issue as they are in different foundry

I explained that in my first post, dude. Foundries can't expand and contract at will. They have to allocate limited manpower that they have to certain production like consoles, which drives prices up for anything else. It could even lead to prices skyrocketing in other foundries because other companies may try to move their orders to a different foundry.

I think there seems to be a thing like a global pandemic going on affecting supply chains of almost everything related to electronics.

 

[bencrutz]

I explained that in my first post, dude. Foundries can't expand and contract at will. They can't just double their workforce and output one day and fire half of the workers when they don't need them. Hiring is often an even bigger problem than firing. They have to allocate limited manpower that they do have to certain production like consoles, which drives prices up for anything else. It could even lead to prices skyrocketing in other foundries because other companies may try to move their orders to them from that console foundry. I've worked in different manufacturing companies before and that was pretty much the lay of the land.

it doesn't make sense. chip designer buy foundry capacity with wafer agreement, basically paid for each wafer that will go through lithography process, so the price is already set for that node (AFAIK per wafer in, not per good chip out), not as simple as "hey, i made you the chip but now you have to pay me more to get this"

 

[MxPhenom 216]

it doesn't make sense. chip designer buy foundry capacity with wafer agreement, basically paid for each wafer that will go through lithography process, so the price is already set for that node (AFAIK per wafer in, not per good chip out), not as simple as "hey, i made you the chip but now you have to pay me more to get this"

Chip designers usually have options, but thats pretty much it for the most part. Its a per wafer sort of thing.

 

[bencrutz]

Chip designers usually have options, but thats pretty much it for the most part. Its a per wafer sort of thing.

IIRC, they used to have options to buy per good chip out from foundry, before half node being popular, i think pre 28nm, when all lithography have things in common, before gate-first / gate-last stuff happening.........

 

[saki630]

50% of the comments are "its too damn expensive"
50% of the remaining comments "capitalism working as intended, also higher $$$ is the new budget boomer"

There is Zero stock of any green-maker card. Wont be for another 4 months, then we get some MSRP action.

 

[Caring1]

50% of the comments are "its too damn expensive"
50% of the remaining comments "capitalism working as intended, also higher $$$ is the new budget boomer"

There is Zero stock of any green-maker card. Wont be for another 4 months, then we get some MSRP action.

Why not both?
They are too expensive, and it is capitalism at work.

 

[ratirt]

NV has "supply issues" because it actually doesn't want to sell 3080 for $700, but 3070 cannot compete with Big Navi, so here is the trainwreck between 3070 and 3090 (both are quite availablea, although even 3070 costs more than 700 euro, mind you).

AMD has "supply issues" because it just has finalized design of its GPU and demand is very strong, boosted by a number of reasons, from AMD being back into high end GPUs, to AMD lastly beating Intel even at gaming.

What you say, for me, seems more of a random or spontaneous behavior which I think it isn't. It was planned and companies know about it and they plan releases.
The cards are not available for me. Ebay, amazon or any other such websites are not considered selling sites by legit retailers/etailers NV or AMD products only. Most cards being sold there are from private people who got the card and resell it to get a profit.

 

[PowerPC]

it doesn't make sense. chip designer buy foundry capacity with wafer agreement, basically paid for each wafer that will go through lithography process, so the price is already set for that node (AFAIK per wafer in, not per good chip out), not as simple as "hey, i made you the chip but now you have to pay me more to get this"

Chip designers usually have options, but thats pretty much it for the most part. Its a per wafer sort of thing.

So one wafer can cost x and the next same wafer can cost more, am I seeing this right?

 

[ratirt]

So one wafer can cost x and the next same wafer can cost more, am I seeing this right?

Yes you do see it right what he said although that's not true. The wafers are same price according to a contract for delivery signed by both companies for whatever number of wafers produced in a time frame. More you take cheaper it gets. What i think he was trying to say is the price for wafer is not set the same for everybody but it depends on who and how many will purchase. For instance, AMD gets products done on the TSMC's 7nm node and that's a lot of products. I'm sure they get discounts for a regular price in the contracts. Same goes for Apple I assume.
Why this is valid? Because each company needs to have a settled price to make an estimate of how much they can produce and what would be the final products price. Not to mentioned give a discount to AIBs and other companies willing to get their hands on the product. In case if each wafer cost is priced differently, like @MxPhenom 216 mentioned, they could not do it and planning would go out of a window. None of the companies can afford to have that insecurity of price.

 

[Bubble99]

Too much demand, too little supply. Usually by this time of the cycle the last gen would be selling at clearance but its clearly not the case.

How can there be Xbox shortage , PlayStation shortage, AMD GPU shortage, AMD CPU shortage and now this?

They have no be fixing this like RAM shortage in the past to increased the profits.