Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

Space Lynx · May 8, 2021

The more I look at what Toyota has done (and is doing) with a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine even... I just don't get it. I know storage costs of hydrogen are expensive, but if it were scaled up, wouldn't the cost dramatically lower? The Boring Company could dig giant underground storage facilities (its cold as crap if you dig far enough down)... and store the tanks of hydrogen there, and a driver will simply drive down a ramp, get the hydrogen tank replaced, and drive off.

I feel like clean energy with no messy batteries even... is staring us right in the face, why is Toyota taking a risk on it if there is no possible future for it? I don't get it. Someone educate me.

(reason I bring this up is because I was just reading recently how 5% of all electric car batteries are recycled, who knows what happens to rest... not to mention they are not good to begin with...)

If all world governments got on board and were like ok all... we highly miscalculated climate change, things need to change within 5 years... all mass production changed to this hydrogen idea... would it be impossible? Or would it scale?

https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/climate-energy/biden-administration-offers-nuclear-industry-path-hydrogen-tax-credit-2025-01-03/

The Biden administration said on Friday portions of nuclear power plants will be able to secure tax credits to produce clean hydrogen if the credits help to prevent reactors from retiring.

Very interesting development here, it's an older article, but there is a lot of logic to this so I thought it would suit the thread.

www.techspot.com
Hidden underground hydrogen reserves could power the entire Earth for centuries
The research, led by Geoffrey Ellis, a petroleum geochemist at the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), has been published in the journal Science Advances. It suggests that tapping...
www.techspot.com www.techspot.com

A new study has unveiled a discovery beneath the Earth's surface: a vast reservoir of hydrogen that could potentially reshape the global energy landscape. Scientists estimate that approximately 6.2 trillion tons of hydrogen lie hidden in rocks and underground reservoirs, a quantity that dwarfs known oil reserves by a factor of 261.

It's still a long time away, but these discoveries combined with the good nature sense of using nuclear power as an incentive to harvest it, the future for hydrogen cars and trains is not over. It may not happen in our lifetime, but I do feel hydrogen is the future.

the54thvoid · May 8, 2021

Just a point, if you dig far enough down, it gets hotter and hotter. We live on the cold bit. But deeper in the crust, it gets super-heated.

64K · May 8, 2021

Just doing a quick look around I found some definite negatives for using hydrogen as fuel:

Investment is Required. ...
Cost of Raw Materials. ...
Regulatory Issues. ...
Overall Cost. ...
Hydrogen Storage. ...
Infrastructure. ...
Highly Flammable.
There's virtually no pure hydrogen on Earth because it's so reactive. Most hydrogen is made from methane [natural gas] in a process that produces carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

The reason we are still using fossil fuels to power our cars is because it's a cheaper and simpler means of energy production. One day when we are running out of cheap fossil fuels that will change. Hopefully at that time Fusion will be cheap enough and simple to use and practical for transportation.

8BitZ80 · May 8, 2021

I worked in the gas industry for a few years and hydrogen isn't easy to work with. Obviously it's volatile but the real issue is that you need to store it as a gas at high pressures (2,000 to 10,000 psi). Even when you can design a passenger vehicle with a hydrogen fuel tank that can handle that pressure, you still don't have the same energy density as good old fashioned petrol. That doesn't rule hydrogen out but at least for now it's not quite there in terms of practicality.

Space Lynx · May 8, 2021

the54thvoid said:
Just a point, if you dig far enough down, it gets hotter and hotter. We live on the cold bit. But deeper in the crust, it gets super-heated.

I obviously didn't mean dig that deep... sigh...

64K said:
Just doing a quick look around I found some definite negatives for using hydrogen as fuel:

Investment is Required. ...

Cost of Raw Materials. ...

Regulatory Issues. ...

Overall Cost. ...

Hydrogen Storage. ...

Infrastructure. ...

Highly Flammable.

There's virtually no pure hydrogen on Earth because it's so reactive. Most hydrogen is made from methane [natural gas] in a process that produces carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

The reason we are still using fossil fuels to power our cars is because it's a cheaper and simpler means of energy production. One day when we are running out of cheap fossil fuels that will change. Hopefully at that time Fusion will be cheap enough and simple to use and practical for transportation.

then how has Toyota managed to do it...

moproblems99 · May 9, 2021

The largest issue for any alternative fuel (not electric) is infrastructure. There are more gas stations than stars. So building new stations would be troublesome and converting the others a logistical headache (and costly) which means it won't happen until necessary.

Electric cars largely are unaffected by this but suffer from their obviously longer 'refuel' times.

Space Lynx · May 11, 2021

this answers a lot of questions... but I guess the next question is, how does Toyota do it? and would those costs come down if it were scaled largely... or is there a new way to get hydrogen easier?

World's first commercial-grade hydrogen plane takes flight in UK, as government urged to grow 'green' hydrogen sector - edie

The first flight of a hydrogen-powered, commercial-grade aircraft has been successfully completed in Bedford, while UK ministers face fresh calls to help scale up the domestic market for hydrogen produced using renewables.

www.edie.net

also where did this plane get its hydrogen fuel... see lot of questions here not a lot of answers... main thing is would it scale to be cost efficient?

Billionaire takes on Elon Musk in electric vehicle vs hydrogen debate

Billionaire Andrew Forrest said Musk had 'every reason to fear green hydrogen, and his description is perhaps better suited to someone who peddles a battery technology as green when it runs on fossil fuel

www.livemint.com

Now I need to know more about this Australian mining company, how did they make the switch to Hydrogen profitable... and is that method scalable.

Maybe we should look at a mix of EV's and Hydrogen's, certain areas that can have that infrastructure of hydrogen get it, and other more dense areas rely on EV's... why can't we all just get along? haha

moproblems99 · May 11, 2021

I would absolutely support the research on hydro cars. No questions. I have been seeing stuff about them since the early 2000s.

Space Lynx · May 11, 2021

moproblems99 said:
I would absolutely support the research on hydro cars. No questions. I have been seeing stuff about them since the early 2000s.

Toyota is already doing lots of research in it, and Toyota just came out with this recently, a hydrogen combustion engine, no Fuel Cell:

Toyota Developing Hydrogen Engine Technologies Through Motorsports | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announced today that, toward the achievement of a carbon-neutral mobility society, it is developing a hydrogen engine. It has installed the engine on a racing vehicle based on Toyota's Corolla Sport, which it will enter in competition under the ORC ROOKIE Racing...

global.toyota

moproblems99 · May 11, 2021

lynx29 said:
Toyota is already doing lots of research in it, and Toyota just came out with this recently, a hydrogen combustion engine, no Fuel Cell:

Toyota Developing Hydrogen Engine Technologies Through Motorsports | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announced today that, toward the achievement of a carbon-neutral mobility society, it is developing a hydrogen engine. It has installed the engine on a racing vehicle based on Toyota's Corolla Sport, which it will enter in competition under the ORC ROOKIE Racing...

global.toyota

I should say: Support more broad research than and research on how to best implement this shit.

FreedomEclipse · May 11, 2021

64K said:
It's from this series. One of the best sci-fi series ever imo

If you haven't had a chance to watch it then I recommend it.

View attachment 199718

Indubitably

Shrek · May 11, 2021

lynx29 said:
I just don't get it. I know storage costs of hydrogen are expensive...

Hydrogen is hard to store, it not being easily liquified; electricity is easy to store.

People are working on ways to produce LPG (liquid petroleum gas) which is easy to store.

Space Lynx · May 11, 2021

Andy Shiekh said:
Hydrogen is hard to store, it not being easily liquified; electricity is easy to store.

Elon Musk's Boring company could make large underground facilites you drive through, changes your hydrogen storage tank, and you drive off, could be instant refueling.

Also, I feel like I am repeating myself... how does Toyota do it... they have active hydrogen fueling stations in California for many years now and expanded it.

Shrek · May 11, 2021

lynx29 said:
changes your hydrogen storage tank

How does that solve the problem? (Hydrogen is hard to store, it not being easily liquified).

And car batteries may be recycled by using them for house electricity storage; what happens is that such batteries lose their power ability, but not so much their energy capacity.

If car batteries are standardized one may also be able to swap one out at the station and drive off.

Space Lynx · May 11, 2021

Andy Shiekh said:
How does that solve the problem? (Hydrogen is hard to store, it not being easily liquified).

And car batteries may be recycled by using them for house electricity storage; what happens is that such batteries lose their power ability, but not so much their energy capacity.

If car batteries are standardized one may also be able to swap one out at the station and drive off.

this is what I want to ask Toyota, or that plane maker, or that Australian miner I linked before. how do you do it, and can it scale efficiently in certain geological areas... and are there new methods for creating hydrogen that just aren't advertised as much... where did that plane get it's hydrogen for example... as I said lots of question not many answers, simply interesting to think about. not just dismiss immediately, if Toyota thought it was impossible, hopeless, endless dream - I doubt they would be sinking money into it for this long...

Electric cars: What will happen to all the dead batteries?

In the next 10 years millions of old electric car batteries will need to be recycled or discarded.

www.bbc.com

"Currently, globally, it's very hard to get detailed figures for what percentage of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, but the value everyone quotes is about 5%," says Dr Anderson. "In some parts of the world it's considerably less."

So yeah batteries are pretty bad for the environment, EV isn't a savior just yet... not until we figure out this problem which we haven't... not to mention the mining of Nickel and Iron isn't exactly good either...

Nickel mining: the hidden environmental cost of electric cars

The extraction of nickel, mainly mined in Australia, Canada, Indonesia, Russia and the Philippines, comes with environmental and health costs

www.theguardian.com

what if instead of just dismissing hydrogen we keep investing (like toyota, like the Australian mining company, etc)... maybe there is a way to scale up large tank storage underground (underground because its cold, protected from weather, and will require less electricity to keep stored).

tabascosauz · May 11, 2021

lynx29 said:
Elon Musk's Boring company could make large underground facilites you drive through, changes your hydrogen storage tank, and you drive off, could be instant refueling.

Also, I feel like I am repeating myself... how does Toyota do it... they have active hydrogen fueling stations in California for many years now and expanded it.

You seem to be extremely hung up on Toyota's alleged "success" on this front.

Toyota hasn't "DONE IT". The Mirai is not a success. Just ask the Mirai early adopters who are now realizing that the car is only half the question (if that), infrastructure is the other half and Toyota hasn't anywhere near the amount of infrastructure needed to properly support hydrogen cars.

The Mirai also isn't evidence that Toyota is betting big on hydrogen. A company as big as Toyota has plans that cannot be easily turned around on a whim; there was news a little while back that they've been flirting with the idea of a partnership with Tesla, but plans take time to come to fruition. In the meantime, the bulk of Toyota's strategy still hedges on hybrids and more efficient gas engines (downsizing larger engines like the 1GR, turbocharging, D-4S dual injection, new platforms that integrate better with hybrid powertrains, etc.). Toyota believed that aggressively pursuing EVs wasn't the right policy (at least, not in the near term), and well, they're living with the consequences.

Yes, their new track car that runs hydrogen in a ICE engine turned a few heads as a technology demonstrator. That doesn't mean anything for the viability of hydrogen as a fuel and hydrogen-powered vehicles. Toyota is a company that plays it safe, but even then there's just not a good reason to invest significantly into this idea of making ICE cars run on hydrogen. They don't run hydrogen out of the box, they're not emissions-free, they're a distraction from EVs and Toyota's own hybrids, and the same problems with creating/storing hydrogen remain.

Nuckles56 · May 11, 2021

The other big issue with hydrogen other then storage, is the production of it, as currently like 95% comes from the cracking of methane and that makes it just as dirty a fuel as the petrol we use currently.

Space Lynx · May 11, 2021

tabascosauz said:
You seem to be extremely hung up on Toyota's alleged "success" on this front.

Toyota hasn't "DONE IT". The Mirai is not a success. Just ask the Mirai early adopters who are now realizing that the car is only half the question (if that), infrastructure is the other half and Toyota hasn't anywhere near the amount of infrastructure needed to properly support hydrogen cars.

The Mirai also isn't evidence that Toyota is betting big on hydrogen. A company as big as Toyota has plans that cannot be easily turned around on a whim; there was news a little while back that they've been flirting with the idea of a partnership with Tesla, but plans take time to come to fruition. In the meantime, the bulk of Toyota's strategy still hedges on hybrids and more efficient gas engines (downsizing larger engines like the 1GR, turbocharging, D-4S dual injection, new platforms that integrate better with hybrid powertrains, etc.). Toyota believed that aggressively pursuing EVs wasn't the right policy (at least, not in the near term), and well, they're living with the consequences.

Yes, their new track car that runs hydrogen in a ICE engine turned a few heads as a technology demonstrator. That doesn't mean anything for the viability of hydrogen as a fuel and hydrogen-powered vehicles.

I understand your arguments. Now I simply wonder why Toyota bothers with it, or why the UK airplane decided to use hydrogen... perhaps these are simply models in the hopes someday there will be a breakthrough in how to harvest hydrogen easier/cleaner. I am unsure. Maybe these things are an RnD program so to speak, and it's just a waiting game to see if some genius figures out a way to get hydrogen easier.

Shrek · May 11, 2021

lynx29 said:
can it scale efficiently

That's my point... car storage... no economies of scale.

lynx29 said:
see if some genius figures out a way to get hydrogen easier.

? electrolysis

tabascosauz · May 11, 2021

lynx29 said:
I understand your arguments. Now I simply wonder why Toyota bothers with it, or why the UK airplane decided to use hydrogen... perhaps these are simply models in the hopes someday there will be a breakthrough in how to harvest hydrogen easier/cleaner. I am unsure. Maybe these things are an RnD program so to speak, and it's just a waiting game to see if some genius figures out a way to get hydrogen easier.

I'm not sure I understand why they decided to go down this road either, lol. Toyota is the literal embodiment of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but it doesn't feel like they were ever very serious about hydrogen. Seeing Toyota falling behind companies like Ford and GM in electrification is just......I hope they do find a way to jumpstart their venture into EVs, whether by the Tesla deal or otherwise.

I do get excited about cool new innovations in cars, but if anything the past 6 years have taught me that an exciting product means precisely 0 until the moment the company makes it a mass-produced commercial success (or at least real and viable to some degree). Merc EQC, Bollinger, Nikola, Rivian as of this moment.........over-promise, under-/don't-deliver. Same goes for the plane. It's cool, but I'll believe it when I see it.

At least Mirai is a real product and not vaporware, and the infrastructure for it certainly seems a little better in Japan. But it currently still falls into the same trap as the above, involving a lot of "promises" and not a lot of "reality"; like, hydrogen COULD be stored easily and widely but it isn't, hydrogen COULD be made in efficient, low-emissions ways but it isn't, etc.

Space Lynx · May 11, 2021

Andy Shiekh said:
That's my point... car storage... no economies of scale.

? electrolysis

I don't know what you mean by car storage... I'm talking about small tanks that go in the hydrogen car, they would pop out, then back in, as the car drives underground to refuel on an automated conveyor belt you drive on to, no humans needed. (this is just an idea of mine, I doubt it would work) my goal isn't to argue with this thread, it's simply asking a question about physics... is Elon Musk right in his video he made? are the physics clear cut, or is there something else possible. (I'd really love to know what this mining company in Australia is doing switching from traditional mining to making hydrogen, that article in particular I find intriguing, is it something new or what... I have no idea) I figure there has to be a financial incentive for them to switch though... which is where I get confused.

tabascosauz said:
. Same goes for the plane. It's cool, but I'll believe it when I see it.

At least Mirai is a real product and not vaporware, and the infrastructure for it certainly seems a little better in Japan.

I'm not sure what you mean in regards to plane, the hydrogen fueled plane has already flown in the UK. It exists. Lot of questions I have... before I can comment further, but if it is exists it is not vaporware imo.

Bones · May 11, 2021

There was a guy in Japan years ago that created an engine that literally ran off of water.
Part of the process involved ceramic "Plugs" that were heated to a very high temp and when the water was injected, it contacted the plugs, exploded/burned like gas and the engine ran.

It's a similar effect when you have molten metal and it comes in contact with water - If you are ever in a foundry and water comes in contact with the metal it will cause an explosion, if enough of both comes together you'd better RUN and hope you're fast enough.

erocker · May 11, 2021

We've barely started with hydrogen cars. I just recently saw some stuff coming in the next few years but there's really been nothing much in production yet.

Shrek · May 11, 2021

A steam engine runs on water...

What heated the plugs?

tabascosauz · May 11, 2021

lynx29 said:
I'm not sure what you mean in regards to plane, the hydrogen fueled plane has already flown in the UK. It exists. Lot of questions I have... before I can comment further, but if it is exists it is not vaporware imo.

I know it has, I should have clarified that I was referring to the likes of the Airbus demonstrator plane. Hydrogen can easily power Cessna and Piper Cub sized aircraft, but the vast majority of people don't consider joyrides in a Cessna as making a meaningful impact on air travel as a whole. That would be like if we only had cars like this and hailed it a groundbreaking revolution for the auto industry:

Chinese £3,200 budget electric car takes on Tesla

The mini electric vehicle being made by China's biggest carmaker is now outselling Tesla two to one.

www.google.com

I'm not saying that hydrogen doesn't hold promise. Perhaps a lot more promise in aviation, since electrification is not yet an option, but it's got a very long way to go.

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Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

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