Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[mtcn77]

How anti-Randian of you...

Not... Ellis Wyatt didn't work towards the benefit of his enemies in a losing battle. No difference between 15% tax and 15% accrued environmental cost, imo.

 

[claes]

I’m sorry but like your previous post this just does not translate into English I can comprehend. No offense! Though being terse doesn’t help...

 

[mtcn77]

I’m sorry but like your previous post this just does not translate into English I can comprehend

Where is your buddy, you are attempting to derail the thread just by yourself tonight...

 

[claes]

I have no buddies

The last thirty posts or so have just reiterated why hydrogen isn’t feasible... not much to derail here :shrug:

 

[mtcn77]

I have no buddies

The last thirty posts or so have just reiterated why hydrogen isn’t feasible... not much to derail here :shrug:

So, you are saying counter arguments have no place here?

 

[claes]

Nope; again, no offense, but I think you may need a new translator tool (or I’m just unable to read between the lines)

 

[mtcn77]

Nope; again, no offense, but I think you may need a new translator tool (or I’m just unable to read between the lines)

You think you are skewing the questions, but you still have to explain yourself why people need your approval to make counter arguments. I'm asking this because otherwise your comment on 30 opposite posts in this thread hangs in the air without any connotation.

 

[claes]

Nah; you’re just trolling me now. I have no idea what you mean by “skewing questions” (and I’m confident you don’t either), as I also have no idea what your previous posts mean to express, which is all I wished to explore and the whole of my interventions here. You don’t have to explain your posts if you don’t want to, all I’m saying is that they are incoherent in this readers’ mind.

As for this thread’s quality of discussion; sure, random users pop-in and post an example of hydrogen fuel experiments, then they disappear while regulars reiterate why it’s not feasible. I guess that’s a discussion, but it’s pretty boring/uncontentious in here.

I’m not a mod, but those advocates can and should continue to discuss the merits of hydrogen as a fuel as they wish — makes no difference to me/not sure why you think I care lol :shrug:

Have a nice day

 

[KLiKzg]

Except all Life leads to higher entropy...& all aspects of Life lead to higher entropy.
While physics tells us Universe is trying to achieve lower entropy.

So is Life, an answer to lower entropy of Universe? Are we really here, just to balance things among the Stars? (usually one Pannonian sailor used to say that line)

 

[mtcn77]

Nah; you’re just trolling me now. I have no idea what you mean by “skewing questions” (and I’m confident you don’t either), as I also have no idea what your previous posts mean to express, which is all I wished to explore and the whole of my interventions here. You don’t have to explain your posts if you don’t want to, all I’m saying is that they are incoherent in this readers’ mind.

As for this thread’s quality of discussion; sure, random users pop-in and post an example of hydrogen fuel experiments, then they disappear while regulars reiterate why it’s not feasible. I guess that’s a discussion, but it’s pretty boring/uncontentious in here.

I’m not a mod, but those advocates can and should continue to discuss the merits of hydrogen as a fuel as they wish — makes no difference to me/not sure why you think I care lol :shrug:

Have a nice day

I don't fancy blissful ignorance. Not returning an appropriate answer is not discussing and you know it better than I do. Enough with your insinuating counter arguments. Either respond head on, or move to the side.

 

[the54thvoid]

Please stick to the topic of Hydrogen as a fuel source: pros and cons, possibilities and problems.

If someone posts a science based opinion, it is their right to do so, it is yours to refute it with further discussion.

Further personal arguments, however, will lead to reply bans.

 

[Space Lynx]

Please stick to the topic of Hydrogen as a fuel source: pros and cons, possibilities and problems.

If someone posts a science based opinion, it is their right to do so, it is yours to refute it with further discussion.

Further personal arguments, however, will lead to reply bans.

I had not been following this thread for awhile, thank you for helping.

See my new thread here if you are interested in some newer ideas... hydrogen won't happen I think we can all agree on that now. This topic was a good learning exercise for me though.

Cost effective transportation, how to live a better life with more money in your pocket, 8.1 kWh per 100 km EV car's. Let's discuss.

Sketching out some rough ideas... basically what gave me this idea was how hard it is to find decently priced transportation to get back and forth to work. How vulture like car salesman have been towards me, etc. I absolutely can't believe humanity has come to this. It's really sad and...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Hachi_Roku256563]

hydrogen won't happen I think we can all agree on that now

I still do not agree
Its Quite simple As of this point in time Electric Vehicles still have a Impact on the envoriment
and i dont see how this can be fixed
However Hydrogen does not have these impacts and if it can be given proper infestructure it would be better and safer

 

[Space Lynx]

I still do not agree
Its Quite simple As of this point in time Electric Vehicles still have a Impact on the envoriment
and i dont see how this can be fixed
However Hydrogen does not have these impacts and if it can be given proper infestructure it would be better and safer

Sorry for not clarifying mate, I meant in the short term it will not happen. Long term I agree EV is not the future. Short term and medium term though EV just has to much momentum now. Congress and the world at large is hype fixated on EV. Personally I would like to see a great public works project in the name of Keynesian Economics for a new hyperloop system of travel or hydrogen, but that is a flight of fancy I am afraid.

 

[Hachi_Roku256563]

Sorry for not clarifying mate, I meant in the short term it will not happen. Long term I agree EV is not the future. Short term and medium term though EV just has to much momentum now. Congress and the world at large is hype fixated on EV. Personally I would like to see a great public works project in the name of Keynesian Economics for a new hyperloop system of travel or hydrogen, but that is a flight of fancy I am afraid.

Yes i agree with this
I think toyota jumped the gun with hydrogen tech and its not ready
But i think 10-20 years Hydrogen will be the standard

 

[ArdWar]

I agree that EV as it is done now might not exactly the correct or best way to go forward if we really care about sustainability. But out of the alternative out there, I'd rate Hydrogen not better than EV simply because of logistics.

Let's see:
one liter of petrol is 34MJ
one liter of LNG (liquid methane) is 22MJ
one liter of LiFePo battery is about 2MJ
one liter of compressed H2 at 150psi (common gas cylinder) is.... 0.1MJ

ain't going anywhere with that

okay, one liter of liquid H2 is 8.5MJ
sounds nice, buuut liquid H2 is -250 °C. Ain't gonna put that on your trunk either.

Hydrogen is something that looks good in theory but impractical in practice. For something stationary maybe doable, but definitely not for mobility... unless it's a rocket.

 

[Space Lynx]

I agree that EV as it is done now might not exactly the correct or best way to go forward if we really care about sustainability. But out of the alternative out there, I'd rate Hydrogen not better than EV simply because of logistics.

Let's see:
one liter of petrol is 34MJ
one liter of LNG (liquid methane) is 22MJ
one liter of LiFePo battery is about 2MJ
one liter of compressed H2 at 150psi (common gas cylinder) is.... 0.1MJ

ain't going anywhere with that

okay, one liter of liquid H2 is 8.5MJ
sounds nice, buuut liquid H2 is -250 °C. Ain't gonna put that on your trunk either.

Hydrogen is something that looks good in theory but impractical in practice. For something stationary maybe doable, but definitely not for mobility.

if you are interested, I started a new more likely scenario thread...

Cost effective transportation, how to live a better life with more money in your pocket, 8.1 kWh per 100 km EV car's. Let's discuss.

Sketching out some rough ideas... basically what gave me this idea was how hard it is to find decently priced transportation to get back and forth to work. How vulture like car salesman have been towards me, etc. I absolutely can't believe humanity has come to this. It's really sad and...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[eidairaman1]

I heard Toyota is working on them still

Yes i agree with this
I think toyota jumped the gun with hydrogen tech and its not ready
But i think 10-20 years Hydrogen will be the standard

This I agree with. I see HY and LNG being the way.

 

[cvaldes]

We have been here before. The limiting factor with hydrogen is the consumer fuel distribution infrastructure.

Hydrogen can still be considered for fleet operations (like city government cars & trucks) or a confined environment like an airport (aircraft operations vehicles, baggage vehicles, passenger shuttle buses, etc.).

Heck, a lot of gas stations don't have diesel. Sure, all the diesel vehicle owners say "there are lots of stations with diesel." They know all the local stations that carry diesel. They also know all of the stations that DON'T carry diesel (and generally forget about the latter).

Moving on, how many consumer gas stations carry LNG/CNG? Yeah, I thought so.

It's about commercial viability, people. Not some poorly articulated obscure dorkwad argument about fuel efficiency, etc.

Gasoline isn't even the most efficient fossil fuel but it's still the most used for passenger vehicles because the entire supply chain and distribution infrastructure is built around it.

Remember that it's easier to dig a trench for some electrical conductors rather than install some sort of tank for hydrogen fuel. And electricity doesn't require regular visits by other vehicles (that are probably powered by diesel) for replenishment.

 

[Hachi_Roku256563]

Moving on, how many consumer gas stations carry LNG/CNG? Yeah, I thought so.

as i said give it 10 to 20 years
more inferstructure
when there is lots of stations carrying LNG/CNG then it will become the norm

 

[Operandi]

Remember that it's easier to dig a trench for some electrical conductors rather than install some sort of tank for hydrogen fuel. And electricity doesn't require regular visits by other vehicles (that are probably powered by diesel) for replenishment.

Thats the main advantage of EVs. We already have an electrical grid so it just needs to be beefed up to support the load of EVs. Aside from the electrical infrastructure already being there for EVs which dosn't exist for hydrogen moving high preasure hydrogen around is a major problem. In order for it take off I think there is going to have be some kind of breakthrough in low pressure storage and there are several companies working on just that.

I posted a link to company a few posts back about Plasma Kinetics which looks to be pretty close to actual product. Loop Energy looks like another working on the same thing.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...esel-Electric-Locomotive-to-Hydrogen-Electric

 

[DOA]

as i said give it 10 to 20 years
more inferstructure
when there is lots of stations carrying LNG/CNG then it will become the norm

More likely it will never happen. BEVs are too good and too far ahead. Toyota seems more interested in slowing BEV adoption to keep ICE sales than FCVs. No one else really has a contender for the BEV vehicle array. While the theory is good, FCVs are just too expensive to run. Check the Toyota Long Beach experiment to see what I mean. 3 years and Toyota is showing no interest in selling the trucks, let alone footing the bill for infrastructure.

 

[Operandi]

More likely it will never happen. BEVs are too good and too far ahead. Toyota seems more interested in slowing BEV adoption to keep ICE sales than FCVs. No one else really has a contender for the BEV vehicle array. While the theory is good, FCVs are just too expensive to run. Check the Toyota Long Beach experiment to see what I mean. 3 years and Toyota is showing no interest in selling the trucks, let alone footing the bill for infrastructure.

Never? BEV were useless till about 15 years ago, now its the new hottness.

Technology breakthroughs happen and technology stagnates, right now ICE is pretty much maxed out and battery tech has had just enough progress and breakthroughs to make vehicles piratical where in the past they were a joke. Hydrogen fuel cells have a lot of challenges but equally a lot of potential and Toyota is making a bet on it. If it works out they'll have a huge advantage, if it doesn't their in the same boat as everyone catching up to Tesla.

 

[defaultluser]

Never? BEV were useless till about 15 years ago, now its the new hottness.

Technology breakthroughs happen and technology stagnates, right now ICE is pretty much maxed out and battery tech has had just enough progress and breakthroughs to make vehicles piratical where in the past they were a joke. Hydrogen fuel cells have a lot of challenges but equally a lot of potential and Toyota is making a bet on it. If it works out they'll have a huge advantage, if it doesn't their in the same boat as everyone catching up to Tesla.

BEV took learning how to tame the Lithium Monster, a chemical solid at room-temperature. EASY.

Hydrogen will light itself an invisible fame if it comes into contact with any oxidant. You also have ti store it at 10k psi in liquid form in order to get any level of competitive density (making the flame-up problem worse).

Also, anything that touched the H2 will self-destruct within 10-15 years: the Mirai Fuel cells are rates for 5000 hours before the entire stack must must be replaced (a 5-10k undertaking), and the Carbon-fiber reinforced steel tanks have a designed lifetime of 15 years , with this replacement cost direct from Toyota:

Toyota Mirai Fuel Tank - 77A2062081 | Daytona Toyota, Daytona Beach FL

Fuel Tank. Toyota Mirai. Genuine Toyota Part - 77A2062081 (77A20-62081). Ships from Daytona Toyota, Daytona Beach FL

parts.daytonatoyota.com

The cost of 35-40k every 15 years to rehab an old Mirai (3x fuel tanks,plus one fuel cells) is going to be a huge price to pay, compared to the replacement cost of most battery packs 5-10k:

How much does a Tesla Model 3 Battery Replacement Cost? | Current Automotive

A real work invoice shows just how much it costs to replace a Tesla Model 3 battery pack out-of-pocket. Plus, how does Tesla supply replacement packs?

www.currentautomotive.com

 

[Operandi]

BEV took learning how to tame the Lithium Monster, a chemical solid at room-temperature. EASY.

Hydrogen will light itself an invisible fame if it comes into contact with any oxidant. You also have ti store it at 10k psi in liquid form in order to get any level of competitive density (making the flame-up problem worse).

Also, anything that touched the H2 will self-destruct within 10-15 years: the Mirai Fuel cells are rates for 5000 hours before the entire stack must must be replaced (a 5-10k undertaking), and the Carbon-fiber reinforced steel tanks have a designed lifetime of 15 years , with this replacement cost direct from Toyota:

Toyota Mirai Fuel Tank - 77A2062081 | Daytona Toyota, Daytona Beach FL

Fuel Tank. Toyota Mirai. Genuine Toyota Part - 77A2062081 (77A20-62081). Ships from Daytona Toyota, Daytona Beach FL

parts.daytonatoyota.com

The cost of 35-40k every 15 years to rehab an old Mirai (3x fuel tanks,plus one fuel cells) is going to be a huge price to pay, compared to the replacement cost of most battery packs 5-10k:

How much does a Tesla Model 3 Battery Replacement Cost? | Current Automotive

A real work invoice shows just how much it costs to replace a Tesla Model 3 battery pack out-of-pocket. Plus, how does Tesla supply replacement packs?

www.currentautomotive.com

You are talking about battery vs hydrogen fuel cells as they are now thats why I said technological breakthroughs need to happen before it comes viable. Look at what companies like Plasma Kinetics are working on.