Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[lightzout]

I'm not sure I understand why they decided to go down this road either, lol. Toyota is the literal embodiment of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", but it doesn't feel like they were ever very serious about hydrogen. Seeing Toyota falling behind companies like Ford and GM in electrification is just......I hope they do find a way to jumpstart their venture into EVs, whether by the Tesla deal or otherwise.

I do get excited about cool new innovations in cars, but if anything the past 6 years have taught me that an exciting product means precisely 0 until the moment the company makes it a mass-produced commercial success (or at least real and viable to some degree). Merc EQC, Bollinger, Nikola, Rivian as of this moment.........over-promise, under-/don't-deliver. Same goes for the plane. It's cool, but I'll believe it when I see it.

At least Mirai is a real product and not vaporware, and the infrastructure for it certainly seems a little better in Japan. But it currently still falls into the same trap as the above, involving a lot of "promises" and not a lot of "reality"; like, hydrogen COULD be stored easily and widely but it isn't, hydrogen COULD be made in efficient, low-emissions ways but it isn't, etc.

TLDR from former Toyota salesman: People won't buy the Murai because it is too expensive, it is unrecognizable and you can but a loaded Prius for half the price. Two years ago it was only sold at one NorCal location in Silicon valley. It costs upwards of $60,000 and there are only a few places to get cells. It was also one of the least attractive sedans from Japan in recent memory and there is no social media presence or legit ptomotion. My theory is Toyota executives know the current political climate and all their market reasearch shows the majority US consumer aren't interested in fuel economy its percieved as a hostile threat to their way of life by a social media campaigns intent of disrupting regulation which would lower profits and earning for shareholders.

I was or technically still am a certified Toyota salesman and worked at a large dealership in SF bay area. There was extensive product training on everything under the Toyota umbrella but nothing about the Murai! I was bummed. I am kind of hippy but I have only owned Toyotas. I am also a major proponent of any technology that would reduce fuel consuption. I know I am only one person but it matters to me that I do what I can to reduce fossil fuel consumption and hopefully encourage others (by example not preaching) to make their own deliberate commitment to support companies that are in fact green and arent just trying to jedi mind trick consumers climate change doesn't exist. Being green was trendy but the most effeicient Toyota truck I owned was made in 1981.The 2003 Tundra i bought was sllammed by consumers eeports are grossly ineffiecuent and maybe averaged 10MPH in town. But I hardy drove it except to work.

I was actually a little crestfallen that the Murai is only sold (or was) at one dealership (San Jose) selling Murais for the entire Northern California region. There are 19 locations (big jump up actually) for hydrogen cells now which is good but only one in my county. I used to be a huge Toyota truck fanboy and honk on their reliability but over time its clear Toyota doesn't care about doing whats best for the environment or whether we will have drivable roads in 50 years. It is about profit margins that year and following whatever trends they think will sell more. Fuel economy matters and like it or not US drivers are going to have to stop guzzlling gas like a frat boy under a kep of PBR. But there is no leadership from manufacteres foreign or domestic on this. Why is that?

My theory is that there is almost no demand for efficient vehicles. Gas is subsidized so heavily by the federal gov't in the US the prices remains artificially low. But mostly awareness has faded and a vociferous psyop/disinfo campaign within the oil industry has been absorbed by and perpetuated within sectors of social media conflating any attempt to improve fuel and air standards as a attack on Democracy by satanic communists or whatever it takes to scare folks into not actually trusting science, facts or history. The Murai is sadly just a perfect example of company who has the resources and the will to meet market as well as improve their "green" vitures. US consumers either dont care enough anymore. Most of the new cars in my neighborhood are base model Dodge charger variants and huge domestic trucks with massive tires that never tow anything. The Murai is ridiculously expensive and the first generation was neither replusive nor memorable. In fact, if you didnt know what a Murai was or looked like it might drive by every day without you noticing. Who would buy that? Mostly corporations who was to say they did something green. There was zero sales reference for the Murai and basically call for that were refered to the Silicon Valley dealership.

Who would spend $70,000 on a Toyota's least attractive car just to be a little more green than a Prius? I doubt Toyota got the same sweetheart tax breaks and incentives that Tesla buyers enjoy. The Prius costs half as much with maxed trim, looks better and has more than the 5 color options in a Murai. It has been a few years now so all my takes are dated now. I am interviewing for a new Toy dealer this week after reading about some stuff they have coming. Anecdotally the other car company I worked for has made a full on, legit effort to meet climate goals and even though I would never buy a a flashy new thing from Bavaria myself I did choose to work there knowing I could sell on that. Or so I thought because I am naive . People who buy BMWs are either loaded with cash or crazy or both. EU drivers and customers seemed to appreciate their carbon-nuetral facilities etc. Typical American attitudes is indifferent or hostile. I actually sold my Tundra and ride a bike now. I am happier and healthier. I really like the Corolla or Supra but I am excited about driving the Rav4 PRIME and see its innovative design as solving perhaps the buggest hurdle in domestic market for Toyota trucks and crossovers.

Toyota Developing Hydrogen Engine Technologies Through Motorsports | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announced today that, toward the achievement of a carbon-neutral mobility society, it is developing a hydrogen engine. It has installed the engine on a racing vehicle based on Toyota's Corolla Sport, which it will enter in competition under the ORC ROOKIE Racing...

global.toyota

 

[moproblems99]

The Guardian: Biden-backed ‘blue’ hydrogen may pollute more than coal, study finds.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/12/clean-fuel-blue-hydrogen-coal-study

This means that the production of this hydrogen actually creates 20% more greenhouse gases than coal, commonly regarded the most polluting fossil fuel, when being burned for heat, and 60% more than burning diesel, according to the new paper, published in the Energy Science & Engineering journal.

 

[Operandi]

TLDR from former Toyota salesman: People won't buy the Murai because it is too expensive, it is unrecognizable and you can but a loaded Prius for half the price. Two years ago it was only sold at one NorCal location in Silicon valley. It costs upwards of $60,000 and there are only a few places to get cells. It was also one of the least attractive sedans from Japan in recent memory and there is no social media presence or legit ptomotion. My theory is Toyota executives know the current political climate and all their market reasearch shows the majority US consumer aren't interested in fuel economy its percieved as a hostile threat to their way of life by a social media campaigns intent of disrupting regulation which would lower profits and earning for shareholders.

I was or technically still am a certified Toyota salesman and worked at a large dealership in SF bay area. There was extensive product training on everything under the Toyota umbrella but nothing about the Murai! I was bummed. I am kind of hippy but I have only owned Toyotas. I am also a major proponent of any technology that would reduce fuel consuption. I know I am only one person but it matters to me that I do what I can to reduce fossil fuel consumption and hopefully encourage others (by example not preaching) to make their own deliberate commitment to support companies that are in fact green and arent just trying to jedi mind trick consumers climate change doesn't exist. Being green was trendy but the most effeicient Toyota truck I owned was made in 1981.The 2003 Tundra i bought was sllammed by consumers eeports are grossly ineffiecuent and maybe averaged 10MPH in town. But I hardy drove it except to work.

I was actually a little crestfallen that the Murai is only sold (or was) at one dealership (San Jose) selling Murais for the entire Northern California region. There are 19 locations (big jump up actually) for hydrogen cells now which is good but only one in my county. I used to be a huge Toyota truck fanboy and honk on their reliability but over time its clear Toyota doesn't care about doing whats best for the environment or whether we will have drivable roads in 50 years. It is about profit margins that year and following whatever trends they think will sell more. Fuel economy matters and like it or not US drivers are going to have to stop guzzlling gas like a frat boy under a kep of PBR. But there is no leadership from manufacteres foreign or domestic on this. Why is that?

First gen Murai was really nothing more than a beta test, only avaliable in California and only as lease if I'm correct? It was also insanely slow and pretty freaking ugly, but essentially only there to test the viability of the platform so who cares what it looks like? The 2nd gen Murai actually really nice and performs decently so looks like Toyota actually made a decent car around the platform this time around so it looks like they are fairly serious about the idea of hydrogen.

Toyota trucks get complete garbage MPG but I have a feeling that thats the trade off for being super conservative in terms of their drivetrain tech which have proven to be insanely reliable. Terrible as a daily driver (unless you are driving short distances) but its a fair trade off if you want super reliable off road truck thats not going to fail on you.

As far as the politics and ideology of it goes most companies don't get involved. Does Toyota leadership care about technology and doing whats good for the environment? To an extent I'm sure they do but they are car manufacturer at the end of the day, not a research institute or environmental protection organization. Toyota or anyone else isn't going to go bankrupt pushing a technological or environmental agenda, thats what elected officials are for. The US has requirements for new vehicles in terms of emissions and fuel economy (which honestly make pretty good sense) but just about every other western country has some sort of test to make sure you are not driving around a complete POS polluting monster that has had zero maintenance in the last 15 years, in my view thats the bigger problem.

My theory is that there is almost no demand for efficient vehicles. Gas is subsidized so heavily by the federal gov't in the US the prices remains artificially low. But mostly awareness has faded and a vociferous psyop/disinfo campaign within the oil industry has been absorbed by and perpetuated within sectors of social media conflating any attempt to improve fuel and air standards as a attack on Democracy by satanic communists or whatever it takes to scare folks into not actually trusting science, facts or history. The Murai is sadly just a perfect example of company who has the resources and the will to meet market as well as improve their "green" vitures. US consumers either dont care enough anymore. Most of the new cars in my neighborhood are base model Dodge charger variants and huge domestic trucks with massive tires that never tow anything. The Murai is ridiculously expensive and the first generation was neither replusive nor memorable. In fact, if you didnt know what a Murai was or looked like it might drive by every day without you noticing. Who would buy that? Mostly corporations who was to say they did something green. There was zero sales reference for the Murai and basically call for that were refered to the Silicon Valley dealership.

Totally man, the fossil fuel industry in general is basically propped up by the US government. Some more, some less depending on the industry but overall there far more money being dumped into the market to keep fossil fuels cheap compared to intensives for EVs or grants and low interest rate loans to EV makers and green energy producers.

There was a comment a up a bit about Tesla somehow only making it because of the subsidies they are getting from the US (and probably other nations) which while technically probably true for Tesla as it stands today financially so if you want to single them out thats fine buts not really a fair comparison in my opinion. They are the only company out there to more less come out of nowhere to compete with the huge established players and build the entire infrastructure to make their cars viable. Not to mention all the research and development required and the huge manufacturing facilitates that needed to be built just to make any of this happen, so yeah they are gona be in the red for awhile. Musk says a lot of dumb things but give credit where credit is due, Tesla is still leading the way in terms of technology and they are on the road to being profitable on equal terms with the established players.

Who would spend $70,000 on a Toyota's least attractive car just to be a little more green than a Prius? I doubt Toyota got the same sweetheart tax breaks and incentives that Tesla buyers enjoy. The Prius costs half as much with maxed trim, looks better and has more than the 5 color options in a Murai. It has been a few years now so all my takes are dated now. I am interviewing for a new Toy dealer this week after reading about some stuff they have coming. Anecdotally the other car company I worked for has made a full on, legit effort to meet climate goals and even though I would never buy a a flashy new thing from Bavaria myself I did choose to work there knowing I could sell on that. Or so I thought because I am naive . People who buy BMWs are either loaded with cash or crazy or both. EU drivers and customers seemed to appreciate their carbon-nuetral facilities etc. Typical American attitudes is indifferent or hostile. I actually sold my Tundra and ride a bike now. I am happier and healthier. I really like the Corolla or Supra but I am excited about driving the Rav4 PRIME and see its innovative design as solving perhaps the buggest hurdle in domestic market for Toyota trucks and crossovers.

Toyota is probably selling the Muria at cost but I think they get similar but maybe slightly different tax deals. The Muria is still kinda technology demonstration even in the 2nd gen so comparing it to the Pirus isn't really fair in terms of cost. Have you seen the 2nd gen btw? Its way, way better looking the first one and looks flat out good in my opinion. The whole buying an EV or Hybrid to look different and stand out is done and the tanking Prius sales show that. People want EVs and hybrids but they don't want some ugly ass Prius (though the newer ones look ok) anymore.

The issue has been politicized like everything else in the US. Drive what you want, enthusiast cars and trucks should exist but our laws are regulations make little sense. You shouldn't get spew pollution like crazy and cause my kids to develop cancer, thats not a personal freedom. Likewise cheap dirty dead-end energy shouldn't be incentivizes at the expense of better more efficient technology and sustainable renewable energy.

In my view people buy BMWs (Mercs, Audi) for one of two reasons. Status symbols which is pretty self explanatory, or because they are car enthusiasts that appreciate their performance, handling and build quality, they certainly don't buy them for their reliability or value lol. I like cars so I get it, I'd like to try a BMW at some point but I would never buy a new one. Also fun fact the Supra is pretty much a BMW.

Right now I drive a VW Golf TDI (all the emission fixes are done) that I'm actually doing some mods on but keeping it as OEM as I can and all the emissions stuff is staying, basically making it closer to TDI version of a GTI. That said while I like cars and driving commuting to work in traffic is boring AF. I mostly work from home now the majority of the time (so the whole TDI thing was kinda pointless but whatever) and when I do go in I bike also which I vastly prefer, the heath benefits are just a bonus.

 

[ShiBDiB]

Hydrogen would require completely new infrastructure to facilitate filling vehicles.

It explodes/ignites real nice like.

It's more expensive comparatively to a gallon of gas.

 

[Tardian]

Hydrogen is a scam. Almost every other energy source or storage system makes more sense environmentally and economically. Michael Moore needs to make a documentary on this issue.

 

[Space Lynx]

Hydrogen is a scam. Almost every other energy source or storage system makes more sense environmentally and economically. Michael Moore needs to make a documentary on this issue.

world is on pace to collapsing before any of this debate matters anyway. i expect mass migration and mass famine to be common occurrence within ten years.

 

[cvaldes]

Hydrogen would require completely new infrastructure to facilitate filling vehicles.

This is the underlying deterrent to widespread hydrogen powered vehicles. It is unrealistic to imagine a duplicate of the gasoline infrastructure. Heck, most US gas stations don't even carry diesel and you can forget about CNG/LNG.

The only realistic deployment has been fleet operations like buses for public transit and city/county government vehicles that return to the same yard daily. I've seen examples of both in my area over the years and a handful of CNG/LNG vehicles.

This simply isn't practical for consumer vehicles.

Every year the electricity grid comprises more and more renewable sources, some countries are ahead of others but this is clearly the direction the world must go.

 

[Operandi]

world is on pace to collapsing before any of this debate matters anyway. i expect mass migration and mass famine to be common occurrence within ten years.

Are you aspiring bond villain by chance?

This is the underlying deterrent to widespread hydrogen powered vehicles. It is unrealistic to imagine a duplicate of the gasoline infrastructure. Heck, most US gas stations don't even carry diesel and you can forget about CNG/LNG.

The only realistic deployment has been fleet operations like buses for public transit and city/county government vehicles that return to the same yard daily. I've seen examples of both in my area over the years and a handful of CNG/LNG vehicles.

This simply isn't practical for consumer vehicles.

Every year the electricity grid comprises more and more renewable sources, some countries are ahead of others but this is clearly the direction the world must go.

I drive a TDI, diesel is pretty much everywhere, if one station doesn't have it the one across the street always does. CNG is here too though I only know of a few spots that have it.

Fleet vehicles is where it would have to start with hydrogen for sure. You can build up the infrastructure for it, it would take forever, but building isn't the problem. The problem is generating the hydrogen cleanly in the first place. Right now its being production is fueled with fossil fuel sources and by the time you subtract all the looses in generating it, moving it from point a to point b its a wash with just driving a gas powered car. There has to be some break throughs in how its produced and the renewable energy grid has to expand before it makes sense. I don't think its a scam but it has a long, long way to go and who knows if will ever pan out.

 

[ShiBDiB]

Fleet vehicles is where it would have to start with hydrogen for sure. You can build up the infrastructure for it, it would take forever, but building isn't the problem. The problem is generating the hydrogen cleanly in the first place.

Eh I'd argue the bigger problem is the profit isn't there to go hydrogen. If the civilian consumer side infrastructure doesn't exist you don't have a market share worth spending r&d time on. Unless the government comes out and says they're gonna start paying for a hydrogen infrastructure expansion for consumer vehicles we won't see them beyond niche markets.

 

[Hachi_Roku256563]

Hydrogen is a scam. Almost every other energy source or storage system makes more sense environmentally and economically. Michael Moore needs to make a documentary on this issue.

there is no REAL clean source OF energy
Hydrogen has problem
Batterys have problems
It just depends on what tech can become clean first

 

[tabascosauz]

Who would spend $70,000 on a Toyota's least attractive car just to be a little more green than a Prius? I doubt Toyota got the same sweetheart tax breaks and incentives that Tesla buyers enjoy. The Prius costs half as much with maxed trim, looks better and has more than the 5 color options in a Murai. It has been a few years now so all my takes are dated now. I am interviewing for a new Toy dealer this week after reading about some stuff they have coming. Anecdotally the other car company I worked for has made a full on, legit effort to meet climate goals and even though I would never buy a a flashy new thing from Bavaria myself I did choose to work there knowing I could sell on that. Or so I thought because I am naive . People who buy BMWs are either loaded with cash or crazy or both. EU drivers and customers seemed to appreciate their carbon-nuetral facilities etc. Typical American attitudes is indifferent or hostile. I actually sold my Tundra and ride a bike now. I am happier and healthier. I really like the Corolla or Supra but I am excited about driving the Rav4 PRIME and see its innovative design as solving perhaps the buggest hurdle in domestic market for Toyota trucks and crossovers.

Toyota Developing Hydrogen Engine Technologies Through Motorsports | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announced today that, toward the achievement of a carbon-neutral mobility society, it is developing a hydrogen engine. It has installed the engine on a racing vehicle based on Toyota's Corolla Sport, which it will enter in competition under the ORC ROOKIE Racing...

global.toyota

Infrastructure should have come before the Mirai, and not the other way around. Hard to see how Toyota's NA hydrogen strategy could have turned out any differently from the way they conducted themselves.

• It's slow at 9+ seconds (hell, even the Leaf Plus now is in the low 6 second range) and heavy
• H2 filling stations
• Expensive for what it is

If it ticked a few more of those excitement boxes, people might be willing to give hydrogen a try even with its inconveniences. The fact that EVs are trivially easy and an absolute blast to drive helps immensely to sell them (well, except VW ID4 or a Bolt lmao) regardless of their drawbacks. As it stands, Mirai is a fussy novelty that doesn't give any real reasons to drive it aside from "it's different". The fact that there are only a handful of H2 stations in the US, and basically all are in California doesn't help its adoption. At least Japan has [somewhat] better infrastructure in place to support the Mirai.

But at least the Mirai has some potential, most of it untapped. Toyota's idea for burning H2 in ICE motors is just laughable, anyone who's ever driven a CNG/LPG converted vehicle knows it's a horseshit idea.

My theory is Toyota executives know the current political climate and all their market reasearch shows the majority US consumer aren't interested in fuel economy its percieved as a hostile threat to their way of life by a social media campaigns intent of disrupting regulation which would lower profits and earning for shareholders.

Fuel economy matters and like it or not US drivers are going to have to stop guzzlling gas like a frat boy under a kep of PBR. But there is no leadership from manufacteres foreign or domestic on this. Why is that?

My theory is that there is almost no demand for efficient vehicles. Gas is subsidized so heavily by the federal gov't in the US the prices remains artificially low. But mostly awareness has faded and a vociferous psyop/disinfo campaign within the oil industry has been absorbed by and perpetuated within sectors of social media conflating any attempt to improve fuel and air standards as a attack on Democracy by satanic communists or whatever it takes to scare folks into not actually trusting science, facts or history. The Murai is sadly just a perfect example of company who has the resources and the will to meet market as well as improve their "green" vitures. US consumers either dont care enough anymore. Most of the new cars in my neighborhood are base model Dodge charger variants and huge domestic trucks with massive tires that never tow anything. The Murai is ridiculously expensive and the first generation was neither replusive nor memorable. In fact, if you didnt know what a Murai was or looked like it might drive by every day without you noticing. Who would buy that? Mostly corporations who was to say they did something green. There was zero sales reference for the Murai and basically call for that were refered to the Silicon Valley dealership.

There's certainly demand for more efficient vehicles. Don't buy into the fearmongering and "muh V8". You don't have to look far - the successes of the 2.7 Ecoboost and 3.0 LM2 Duramax (that baby dmax is entirely in a class of its own) are testament to that. And then there's the Lightning and (hopefully not vaporware) Rivian.

It's easy to hide behind the facade of an online identity and laud the 5.0 for being "reliable and powerful", but when those same people walk into the dealerships, the 5.0 is rarely the motor they walk out with - F150 sales figures based on engine choice have told all for almost a decade. And when it comes to the Gen3 and Gen4 5.0 V8, it's certainly anything but "reliable" anymore. Ask me how I know.

The demand may be hard to see in places where people pay $2.50 for gas. Unfortunately, there are places in North America where people aren't so lucky - gas is at equivalent $5.10 and $5.70/gallon for regular and 91 respectively here.

After 3 trucks (last two of which were basically lemons), I ended up driving a Model 3 now and there's simply no going back. Anyone who hasn't lost their marbles and has experienced driving an EV will have some degree of excitement for the new Lightning, even if they aren't interested in buying the truck itself. Because of the step forward it represents. But yeah, times are changing and they always have been, don't let the keyboard warriors convince you otherwise.

When it comes to Toyota, I just don't understand why they're betting big on H2, or see it paying off in any relevant time frame. Reliable hybrids have always been their forte, and should easily tide them over until their belated EV transition (which honestly is basically their own global roadmap). As they are the largest automaker in the world, I have a tough time believing that industry being stacked against them was the whole reason that the Mirai in America didn't succeed (remember Toyota's lobbying against right to repair?). The entire thing reeks of a half-assed "green" PR stunt that failed miserably.

I guess that's what happens when a company as big as Toyota allows the personal vendetta of one man (Akio Toyoda's irrational hatred of EVs) to run the entire company. You don't need to like EVs. You don't need to drive an EV. You don't even have to like Elon Musk. But rabid denunciation of EVs as a temporary fad that will 'destroy the auto industry' is delusional on half a dozen different levels, but the entire company following suit with that vision is just.........hilarious. Closing your eyes and ears doesn't make EVs magically disappear.

 

[prtskg]

I think petroleum products (petrol/gasoline, diesel, CNG) and ethanol as fuel can co-exist with battery powered vehicle. I don't have much hope for hydrogen because it's costly to produce and can easily explode.

 

[lightzout]

Just popping back in because I am relieved to have a found a place for conversations about complex challenges in the future. I am concerned for my kids. Full disclosure I used to be a redneck hell hippy which isn't that uncommon in NorCal. I love trucks and trees! And guns and ganja! But I want me boys to be able to access the same pristine wilderness I grew up camping, fishing and hunting for food in as well. It has been a tough year for everyone so I gave up on politics and avoid certain divisive talking points with certain friends and family. Not because I am obligated to inform anyone or compelled to correct what I may believe is horse rubbish. What really has gotten me the most is how divise some of the rhetoric being used really is when there is no middle ground for any compromise and the gap in ideology or even logic itself is so wide there any discussion is wasted time.

I challenged myself to ride a bike and as much as I love it sucks. Riding daily helped me lose 2 inches off my waist and my L4/L5 sciatica is GONE. But I have been hit by three cars and I am constantly getting flat tires. I was literally bed-ridden two years ago and unable to work in the trades as I had for decades. It is impossible for me to qualify how extraordinary it is to wake up and not immeidately reach for advil. I am only bringing this up because it is awesome but totally not accidental. If I dont work at it (walking, stretching then ride) routine from physical therapist this degenerative vertebrae is not going away it can really be reversed but it has abated.

My point is that I think my grandparents lived through way shittier times than we have now.the ripple affects of WW1, Spanish flu, dustbowl, Prohibition and Depression in a fairly short order. But rather then divide people these people seem to understand they were all facing the same threat and form common goals. Yes I know there were protests and plenty of scoundrels but people wore masks so they wouldnt die. The last pandemic in the US was only 102 or so years ago and there are tons of pictures and news article that serve to illustrate how differently this could have gone if it was treated as a health crisis. The US electoral system and the public's faith in science and medicine aren't just footnotes. At the end of the day its about being able to say whatever you feel and listen to how others feel without get threatened when you dont agree. Maybe we all need to regrow a working sense of humor? I know I do. Driving a F250 dually as a daily driver is dumb especially since 95% of the people rolling V8s on giant lifts and 36" wheels are towing anything and may never see mud on their sidewalls. Does that mean they are bad people?No, because that was me at one time too. Anyone who pulls moral high ground is sus. I am trying to lead by example. But mainly I want US Americans to stop hating on each other. You dont have to like people but we are on the same team.

I will work anywhere I can find a job and I never thought I would work in the auto industry. It is finally cleaning up its act in terms of safety, efficiancy and fair business practices that are evolving so they can be profitable without upselling some plastic strip on your door edge that costs $200. If I could afford it or needed a truck I think the e150 is an incredible mobile office/work station. Economically speaking, I should get a used prius and call it a day. But my little 4cylinder 2wd 1981 Toyotaa pickup got well over $20 mpg. Where there is a will theres a way. These challenges can be met and when the US rallies around each other even if they have opposing views. I still believe anything is possible.

 

[cvaldes]

there is no REAL clean source OF energy
Hydrogen has problem
Batterys have problems
It just depends on what tech can become clean first

There will never ever be a truly clean source of energy. It can be cleaner but not perfectly clean, relative not absolute.

In the same way, there's no safe sex, just safer sex.

But as we are witnessing it is imperative that the people of this planet adopt cleaner energy while scientists strive to discover better solutions in the future. It's not responsible to operate at the status quo while we wait for an "ideal" solution.

 

[Tardian]

There will never ever be a truly clean source of energy. It can be cleaner but not perfectly clean, relative not absolute.

In the same way, there's no safe sex, just safer sex.

But as we are witnessing it is imperative that the people of this planet adopt cleaner energy while scientists strive to discover better solutions in the future. It's not responsible to operate at the status quo while we wait for an "ideal" solution.

I don't agree. Clean energy needs to be considered from a whole process perspective. The energy used to produce cleaner vehicles has been considered as does the recycling and disposal of the previous vehicle. Very little consideration has been made to the recycling of lithium-ion batteries (which is a difficult and dangerous process. The removal of airbags is another dangerous process. Check out what mining lithium in Bolivia has done to the environment. The list is endless ...

 

[Operandi]

Potential game changer for the future viability of hydrogen potentially on the horizon in the form of essentially solid state hydrogen storage from a company called Plasma Kinetics. Just stumbled over it over the weekend but if it pans out it would be a big step in making the hydrogen infrastructure way more feasible, (NextBigFuture article covers it pretty indpeth).

I don't agree. Clean energy needs to be considered from a whole process perspective. The energy used to produce cleaner vehicles has been considered as does the recycling and disposal of the previous vehicle. Very little consideration has been made to the recycling of lithium-ion batteries (which is a difficult and dangerous process. The removal of airbags is another dangerous process. Check out what mining lithium in Bolivia has done to the environment. The list is endless ...

Perfectly clean energy will never exist, everything humans do has an impact on the environment. It will never be zero so the best we can do is aim for as close to zero as possible. Its true that batteries are energy intensive to make and getting at the raw materials has huge regional environmental impact. These are same problems fossil fuels have but the difference is once you extract the materials and build the battery you keep using it for years, it can be repurposed when its not fit for a EV, and ultimately will be recycled, and not just in dirty places like China (see this IEEE article).

 

[ZenZimZaliben]

Potential game changer for the future viability of hydrogen potentially on the horizon in the form of essentially solid state hydrogen storage from a company called Plasma Kinetics. Just stumbled over it over the weekend but if it pans out it would be a big step in making the hydrogen infrastructure way more feasible, (NextBigFuture article covers it pretty indpeth).


Perfectly clean energy will never exist, everything humans do has an impact on the environment. It will never be zero so the best we can do is aim for as close to zero as possible. Its true that batteries are energy intensive to make and getting at the raw materials has huge regional environmental impact. These are same problems fossil fuels have but the difference is once you extract the materials and build the battery you keep using it for years, it can be repurposed when its not fit for a EV, and ultimately will be recycled, and not just in dirty places like China (see this IEEE article).

Used Lithium batteries are barely recycled. No idea where you got that information. https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/

Hydrogen is very easy to extract. Take a 9v battery, 2 paperclips and a glass of water. The bubbles coming out are pure Hydrogen. So if I can do that in my kitchen I would imagine a giant plant could do much better.

Storage and transport are the main problems and not an insurmountable one if we placed as much infrastructure and resources as we have for Petrol.

 

[prtskg]

Used Lithium batteries are barely recycled. No idea where you got that information. https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/

Hydrogen is very easy to extract. Take a 9v battery, 2 paperclips and a glass of water. The bubbles coming out are pure Hydrogen. So if I can do that in my kitchen I would imagine a giant plant could do much better.

Storage and transport are the main problems and not an insurmountable one if we placed as much infrastructure and resources as we have for Petrol.

It's advisable to not do this experiment at home as hydrogen is highly combustible. It doesn't even need a spark to explode. And this nature of hydrogen is the reason it's not yet used widely.

 

[Operandi]

Used Lithium batteries are barely recycled. No idea where you got that information. https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/

Hydrogen is very easy to extract. Take a 9v battery, 2 paperclips and a glass of water. The bubbles coming out are pure Hydrogen. So if I can do that in my kitchen I would imagine a giant plant could do much better.

Storage and transport are the main problems and not an insurmountable one if we placed as much infrastructure and resources as we have for Petrol.

I didn't say it was perfect or even good. And yeah your right, frankly its bad right now, most batteries don't get recycled and when they do only a small percent of the material is recovered but you have to start somewhere and its valuable resource so people will want to reclaim it. Battery technology is not sitting still, recycling technology is not sitting still but burning hydrocarbon tech is all but maxed out and good luck recycling a gallon gas.

 

[mtcn77]

Hydrogen cars are much like today's nuclear reactors. You wouldn't want to mess with an inherent gas quite as you would with either an inert liquid, or solid material. Nuclear isn't safe today similarly since it isn't using 'containable' materials like salt fuel reactors would.

Don't tell me hydrogen is safe, it is the only substance with both the quantum and physical properties observable. How do you think it penetrates "steel" out of all materials...

 

[KLiKzg]

I work in Rimac Automobili.
AMA, just not about Nevera & other projects!

& about hydrogen:

1. It is too hard to store! Any compartment will leak the "smallest 2-atom molecule we know".
2. It is too hard to transport within car (into the tank & from tank to the engine - ICE or FCE). Again, it will leak!
3. It is extremely combustional (any raised temperate will combust it in presence of oxygen). It is the same reason why HHO bull-shit never works! If it was working, the intake would have blown with all the heat, fresh oxygen & oil vapors.

Enjoy.

 

[mtcn77]

Each hydrogen atom can puncture a 1mm wide hole on the surface of a steel pot if you heat it fast enough without letting it release its suspended hydrogen slowly. I cannot think of the cold-hot cycles that tank is possibly going to go through with full hydrogen saturation.

 

[defaultluser]

Another thing: Fuel Cells are mostly recyclable, but most of the works that goes into them is precision layering (so you barely get a couple hundred back from something that will cost a minimum of $5000/unit):

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/06/f34/fcto_sa_2016_pemfc_transportation_cost_analysis.pdf#%5B%7B%22num%22%3A748%2C%22gen%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B%22name%22%3A%22XYZ%22%7D%2C70%2C552%2C0%5D

This means that: unlike an Apple system, it won't hold it's used value; it will have to be completely rebuilt from scratch. The Carbon Nanotube-reinforced tanks will also need to be rebuilt when they reach end-of-life

Also, once BEVs get mass-produced enough, you will find shops willing to do faulty battery cell replacement. increasing your battery life (without the cost o full pack replacement.)

Repairing Any laptop battery - Li-Ion cell replacement

We are going to identify dead cells in battery packs and replace them. Beware - This tuto is higly experimental, Li-Ion cell present fire /...

www.ifixit.com

About the only thing we still haven't figured out is affordable recycling Lithium Cells (but when you figure how much the replacement costs are for rebuilding that Fuel Cell plus carbon fiber fuel tank, it's kinda acceptable to take the environmental hit for Lithium as it has half the lifetime cost of FCV).

And potentially even-lower lower resellerer costs , when you take into account the costs of individual battery cell replacement refurbing a BEV; as-opposed to rebuild-from-scratch everything that touched the H2 in something like a Mirali - tanks, fuel cell and fuel lines!

 

[mtcn77]

I think, this recycling, while useful in the short term, will also bring us to terms with this nonnegligible law of thermodynamics 2nd and how our tenet of everything's perishability and rather their void of substance in contrast to their substitutability brings about an exploitation of immeasurable means. If we could harness the sun's energy, we wouldn't stop to hesitate before succinctly perverting it to mine the whole of Earth's mantle.

One has to think if laws of physics has differed because where I stand, there is no way we are going to recycle what we put into the energy balance. As long as friction exists, I think we ought to settle on the preciousness of just existing and put the Lamarckian - later Darwinist - dogmatism that, "Things will right themselves along the way": they don't - they follow strict laws about energy conservation and not the wishlists of ideologues who idealise their conformity of unforseen wake of grandiose actions.

Just because energy is cheap does not mean it won't cost anything. All uses of power lead to entropy, it is entropy that pushes things apart in the universe. Why try to liquidize everything when we could see our environmental footprint? Stored energy is just as violent as when it is released, if we should consider how other forms of energy used to store it back into the same container won't be as clean as the soothing mind leaps these unscientific minds take. It is the same old dogma that might makes right...

 

[claes]

How anti-Randian of you...