Sony Takes a Step Backwards with PlayStation 5, Cuts on Cooling Capacity in the new Revision

ExcuseMeWtf · Aug 30, 2021

sam_86314 said:
Modern tech companies couldn't care less about longevity. What better way to encourage sales of a future slim model?

That of course, will have even worse ventilation due to size constraints.

BorisDG · Aug 30, 2021

TheLostSwede said:
They've more or less already admitted to that. Even so, cutting this little material cost out isn't going to change that.

The point about the fans was that different fans might result in different exhaust temperatures. As such, it's a poor means of comparing temperature.

I don't know how much will save them, but I'm glad I bought mine, so I'm not one of those with the newer "cut down" revision. Same was with Nintendo Switch. First units were with JDI screens, now all is with trash InnoLux.

Solaris17 · Aug 30, 2021

The only thing this thread has shown me, is that without data as long as something has copper on it enthusiasts and gamers will buy it.

a swas said, even if the cooler ends up being worse, that does not mean it affects failure rate. If Sony has taken a loss all this time they do not want RMAs.

if they save $100 per unit for say a 5c heat bump without affecting the console why wouldn’t they? Why wouldn’t you?

Bones · Aug 30, 2021

And it's all for nothing since they're using LM as the TIM.
Sure, it will cool better than standard TIM for the first two or three years (Maybe) but after that......

Personally speaking, If I were to get one the LM would be the FIRST thing to fix.

I have a few PS3's and each one has the same basic problems with cooling and the deal with the solder cracking with age leading to the Red/Yellow LED of death.

It's like Sony just can't figure it out or they don't care to, even if the LM does better at first the corrosive effects of it will eventually offset any gains plus make it even harder to fix properly once the cooler's contact surface has been "Eaten" by the LM.

And I'm just waiting for all that to happen and it's going to.

TheoneandonlyMrK · Aug 30, 2021

Well , at least a front page news post on TPU should jar someone into doing some actual testing.

Only that can define this as a shit show or storm in a teacup, until we have those answers I am on the fence.

lexluthermiester · Aug 30, 2021

Bones said:
And it's all for nothing since they're using LM as the TIM.
Sure, it will cool better than standard TIM for the first two or three years (Maybe) but after that......

Personally speaking, If I were to get one the LM would be the FIRST thing to fix.

I have a few PS3's and each one has the same basic problems with cooling and the deal with the solder cracking with age leading to the Red/Yellow LED of death.

It's like Sony just can't figure it out or they don't care to, even if the LM does better at first the corrosive effects of it will eventually offset any gains plus make it even harder to fix properly once the cooler's contact surface has been "Eaten" by the LM.

And I'm just waiting for all that to happen and it's going to.

Liquid Metal TIM does NOT degrade. What ever source you got that nonsense from, stop listening to them! They are lying to you. Tin, Gallium and Indium in the formulations sold as a Thermal Interface Material do not oxidize and are not broken down by any heat a PC/PS5 could reasonably offer. This is science FACT, not opinion.

Bones · Aug 30, 2021

lexluthermiester said:
Liquid Metal TIM does NOT degrade. What ever source you got that nonsense from, stop listening to them! They are lying to you. Tin, Gallium and Indium in the formulations sold as a Thermal Interface Material do not oxidize and are not broken down by any heat a PC/PS5 could reasonably offer. This is science FACT, not opinion.

It's not a thing about the LM degrading itself, it's the TIM attacking the cooler material itself and that has been proven as fact.
The reaction of LM to other metals is real and it will eventually eat away at the cooler's own material, like it or not.
You'll have to show and prove to me LM does not attack other materials used for cooling purposes like aluminum, copper and so on.

The very fact it has Gallium in it makes it B.A.D. for aluminum based coolers themselves and any surfaces based on it for use with LM as a TIM - And the "New" cooler version in the pics sure looks like it's made of aluminum to me.

I mean unless they are using a material that's resistant to it that's how it will go eventually - Just a matter of when, not if.

Valantar · Aug 30, 2021

Solaris17 said:
they save $100 per unit for say a 5c heat bump without affecting the console why wouldn’t they?

You're way overestimating the possible savings from this. This is a mass-produced heatsink with a pretty basic construction. Remember, you can buy pretty decent heatpipe-equipped PC heatsinks for $20-30 at retail - and those are sold in much lower volumes than this, have distributor and retail margins tacked on, and are still profitable to the OEM. The savings are - at best - something like $10. Likely less than half of that. (Materials savings, going by today's pricing and assuming the 300g reduction is 50/50 copper and aluminium, are around $1.) Still, even $1/console is $10 million once you've sold 10 million consoles, so every cent matters (to Sony's bottom line).

Bones said:
It's not a thing about the LM degrading itself, it's the TIM attacking the cooler material itself and that has been proven as fact.
The reaction of LM to other metals is real and it will eventually eat away at the cooler's own material, like it or not.
You'll have to show and prove to me LM does not attack other materials used for cooling purposes like aluminum, copper and so on.

The very fact it has Gallium in it makes it B.A.D. for aluminum based coolers themselves and any surfaces based on it for use with LM as a TIM - And the "New" cooler version in the pics sure looks like it's made of aluminum to me.

Looks like a steel retention frame with (likely) a tiny copper cold plate or direct contact heatpipes to me (under the fin stack, so we wouldn't see it). And LM makes copper look bad, but doesn't (to my knowledge at least) actually harm thermal performance over time. Aluminium is another story of course.

TheLostSwede · Aug 30, 2021

Bones said:
It's not a thing about the LM degrading itself, it's the TIM attacking the cooler material itself and that has been proven as fact.
The reaction of LM to other metals is real and it will eventually eat away at the cooler's own material, like it or not.
You'll have to show and prove to me LM does not attack other materials used for cooling purposes like aluminum, copper and so on.

The very fact it has Gallium in it makes it B.A.D. for aluminum based coolers themselves and any surfaces based on it for use with LM as a TIM - And the "New" cooler version in the pics sure looks like it's made of aluminum to me.

I mean unless they are using a material that's resistant to it that's how it will go eventually - Just a matter of when, not if.

So you think a multi-billion dollar company like Sony don't have engineers to test things like this :roll:

I don't think this heatsink was a rush job that no-one tested before they mass produced it.

Bones · Aug 30, 2021

Yeah, if it's like the older coolers in a PS3 it's like a time-bomb slowly winding down.
The heatsinks in those ARE aluminum and if you use LM with those you may as well get ready for trouble because it's coming.

I'd hope they at least had sense enough to consider it and what to make these heatsinks from to use with LM for that very reason but it does look to be all aluminum in the pic.
Nickel plated aluminum would be much better and even make more sense..... If they are doing that in the first place.

@TheLostSwede They sure did alot of testing with the PS3 and lookie what happened.

And I seriously doubt up until now any testing has gone the distance with the effects of LM on these coolers to observe what happens over time.
They haven't even been around long enough to know.....
Yet.

Another example:
The very solder used isn't that durable with those and IS the reason why so many of those died of the Red/Yellow LED's of death in the first place.
Thermal expansion/contraction killed those but using a better quality solder (60/40) has so far been nothing but good according to all that's had them reballed.
That took time to show but once it did it was rampant and had alot of PS3 owners fuming..... And guys like me snapping them up cheap and fixing them.

usiname · Aug 30, 2021

TheLostSwede said:
So you think a multi-billion dollar company like Sony don't have engineers to test things like this
I don't think this heatsink was a rush job that no-one tested before they mass produced it.

Gigabyte say hi... No matter how big is company mistakes always happen. Should I start with all mistakes of Microsoft? Big companies allways try to save a few bucks with cheaper solutions and not enough testing.

BorisDG · Aug 30, 2021

Same was with PS3. First had backwards compatiblity than the next get rid all of this. Most of the time first revision is always the best, than companies start to cut costs.

lexluthermiester · Aug 30, 2021

Bones said:
It's not a thing about the LM degrading itself, it's the TIM attacking the cooler material itself and that has been proven as fact.

Unless you use a Nickel plated alloy as a contact material, as Sony is doing with the PS5 heatplate. Then nothing happens, at all. Galinstan type materials do not react with Nickel. Why do you think LQ heat blocks for CPU's and GPU's are almost always Nickel plated? It's not a coincidence.

Bones said:
You'll have to show and prove to me LM does not attack other materials used for cooling purposes like aluminum, copper and so on.

Well, I just did. But if you want "proof" you'll need to read up on that data yourself. It's common knowledge and is not hard to find. I will give you a good starting point;

Galinstan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bones said:
The very fact it has Gallium in it makes it B.A.D.

No, it makes it somewhat complicated and a little risky. However, if the proper precautions are taken and the conditions for use are engineered correctly, it is perfectly safe to use as a TIM, which is why it's use is so common and widespread.

Bones said:
And the "New" cooler version in the pics sure looks like it's made of aluminum to me.

Oh? See the silver-like shiny sheen metal? That's Nickel plated metal. The part in direct contact with the LM TIM? Yeah, that'll be Nickel plated too. Par-for-the-course. Sony's engineers know what they're doing.

Bones said:
I mean unless they are using a material that's resistant to it that's how it will go eventually - Just a matter of when, not if.

Also incorrect. Nickel is completely impervious to all Galinstan materials.

Bones · Aug 30, 2021

lexluthermiester said:
Unless you use a Nickel plated alloy as a contact material, as Sony is doing with the PS5 heatplate. Then nothing happens, at all. Galinstan type materials do not react with Nickel. Why do you think LQ heat blocks for CPU's and GPU's are almost always Nickel plated? It's not a coincidence.

Well, I just did. But if you want "proof" you'll need to read up on that data yourself. It's common knowledge and is not hard to find. I will give you a good starting point;

Galinstan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No, it makes it somewhat complicated and a little risky. However, if the proper precautions are taken and the conditions for use are engineered correctly, it is perfectly safe to use as a TIM, which is why it's use is so common and widespread.

Oh? See the silver-like shiny sheen metal? That's Nickel plated metal. The part in direct contact with the LM TIM? Yeah, that'll be Nickel plated too. Par-for-the-course. Sony's engineers know what they're doing.

Also incorrect. Nickel is completely impervious to all Galinstan materials.

Note I did say previously if they weren't using nickel plating it wasn't good - I was already aware of LM vs nickel.

If they really are using nickel plating that's great and does make sense and in fact is a must with LM. :cool:

I basically had said if they weren't using nickel and was using LM it's gonna be a bad deal.

TheLostSwede · Aug 30, 2021

usiname said:
Gigabyte say hi... No matter how big is company mistakes always happen. Should I start with all mistakes of Microsoft? Big companies allways try to save a few bucks with cheaper solutions and not enough testing.

Mistakes ≠ no testing. It's simply not the same thing.
All companies are trying to save a few bucks, it's how the world works.
Also, a lot of products are overengineered from the beginning and goes through revisions to cut down on cost.
I take it you've seen PCBs with a missing capacitor or two? This is one of those things where they figured out that they weren't needed as they go through revisions of the hardware.
It's also a very big difference between Japanese companies and everyone else, except maybe German and some Swedish companies.

TheinsanegamerN · Aug 30, 2021

ARF said:
Err, except that the customers are not so stupid and will not buy the new ones You know what customers satisfaction is?

What universe do you live in? In reality gamers consistently buy overpriced broken games and overpriced consoles and accessories all the time. They'll gobble this thing up like candy.

BorisDG · Aug 30, 2021

Yeah common consumer won't even know that or care about it... It's just tech nerds like us.

lexluthermiester · Aug 30, 2021

Bones said:
Note I did say previously if they weren't using nickel plating it wasn't good - I was already aware of LM vs nickel.

If they really are using nickel plating that's great and does make sense and in fact is a must with LM.

I basically had said if they weren't using nickel and was using LM it's gonna be a bad deal.

Ah, sorry. Might have missed that. :banghead:

BorisDG said:
Yeah common consumer won't even know that or care about it... It's just tech nerds like us.

This!

ARF · Aug 30, 2021

TheinsanegamerN said:
What universe do you live in? In reality gamers consistently buy overpriced broken games and overpriced consoles and accessories all the time. They'll gobble this thing up like candy.

BorisDG said:
Yeah common consumer won't even know that or care about it... It's just tech nerds like us.

It depends on whether this becomes common knowledge. The purpose of these news articles is to inform the readers not to buy.

BorisDG · Aug 30, 2021

ARF said:
It depends on whether this becomes common knowledge. The purpose of these news articles is to inform the readers not to buy.

No matter what, people are still gonna buy them. The market is hungry for next-gen consoles.

ARF · Aug 30, 2021

BorisDG said:
No matter what, people are still gonna buy them. The market is hungry for next-gen consoles.

Buy a configurable PC instead! Much wiser choice and the cooling will be up to you!

BorisDG · Aug 30, 2021

ARF said:
Buy a configurable PC instead! Much wiser choice and the cooling will be up to you!

People (incl. me) are buying, because of exclusives. That's why i never cared for Xbox. It's literally PC platform with less capable hardware.

So at the end - PC, PS5 and Nintendo.

Valantar · Aug 30, 2021

BorisDG said:
No matter what, people are still gonna buy them. The market is hungry for next-gen consoles.

Current-gen. They have been on the market for nearly a year and have sold millions of units. They are very much current, and not next, even if the vast majority of console gamers are still on previous-gen consoles.

BorisDG · Aug 30, 2021

Valantar said:
Current-gen. They have been on the market for nearly a year and have sold millions of units. They are very much current, and not next, even if the vast majority of console gamers are still on previous-gen consoles.

Yes, but people are still calling them "next-gen". It's not my way of naming them. Also 1 year on the market, but not much stock.

Valantar · Aug 30, 2021

BorisDG said:
Yes, but people are still calling them "next-gen". It's not my way of naming them. Also 1 year on the market, but not much stock.

But by following that logic, how can anyone ever switch over? If everyone is wrong, the only way of rectifying that is for someone to start being right. And why not you? And the amount of stock is irrelevant - they were current from the day they launched. Being the current generation means the newest, most recent generation, not the most widely adopted or popular. 'Next-gen' getting stuck from all the pre-launch rumors and discussions is just a bad habit and people not thinking about the words they use.

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Sony Takes a Step Backwards with PlayStation 5, Cuts on Cooling Capacity in the new Revision

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