Cooling Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Air v Water

[Valantar]

Really, like equilibrium? That is what I said. Heat exchange is the same at the radiator, the ihs and the water.


Heat transmittance function is not up to debate.

... but nobody is discussing that. Why? Because it isn't relevant. As you say, the function is what it is. Physics is not up for debate here. What is variable, and thus interesting to discuss, is the conditions in play: cold plate designs, radiator designs, flow rates, airflow, thermal deltas, liquid volumes, etc. With all of this in play, thermal transfer between materials is just one of many, many functions in play. And going off this, saying "heat exchange is the same at the radiator, the ihs and the water" is a ridiculous oversimplification. It works in the same way (i.e. as long as you know the materials and their temperatures you can make rough calculations based off variants of the same formula), but it is by no means the same - literally every variable is different, from absolute temperatures to deltas to transfer media to surface areas to flow paths to materials and thicknesses. A CPU block has a huge thermal delta (gradual between hot and cold silicon->IHS->cold plate->water) but very little surface area, and depending on cold plate design and CPU hot spot layout potentially very uneven distribution of flow vs. hotspots. A radiator typically has a much, much lower thermal delta (I've never seen a water loop exceed 20 degrees above ambient, but I've seen many CPUs run 40-50 degrees above water temp), has a much larger surface area, typically has very evenly distributed flow, but also transfers heat into a much less efficient medium - air. And, as you hopefully know, the smaller the thermal delta, the less efficient the thermal transfer. Which is why the scenario you posited above - that with an 80-degree CPU, the water in the loop might be 78.9 degrees - is never going to happen as long as there's a radiator in the loop, any liquid flow, and there is any airflow through the radiator. I did see something like that with the clogged Enermax AIO on my partner's Threadripper system - it thermal throttled down to ~600MHz, but due to no flow the water in the pump block housing and the first couple of inches of tubing got ridiculously hot. But once you have an actually functioning water loop, that is never going to happen. The thermal load required to maintain 80-degree water temperatures in any human-survivable ambient temperature with a radiator in the loop would be immense.

With this many variables in play, starting from an assumption of perfect and immediate thermal transfer is bad methodology. You need to account for the specifics of the system being measured first, unless you want your data to be so fundamentally flawed as to be utterly useless.

 

[xtreemchaos]

But it also tends to react with the chemicals used to kill bio-growth,

i dont use them bud its a big con that one needs to add shit, if you keep to copper nickel and brass all you need is distilled water , i started watercooling in the 80s when everything was homemade or reused bits from whatever i could find. i double dare anyone to try it it would be a Zen moment for those who do.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

i dont use them bud its a big con that one needs to add shit, if you keep to copper nickel and brass all you need is distilled water , i started watercooling in the 80s when everything was homemade or reused bits from whatever i could find. i double dare anyone to try it it would be a Zen moment for those who do.

I have filled my loop with De-Ionised water and nothing else, i will try it as is and report on the results. Could not get distilled, it's rocking horse piss in the UK. My loop is afaik copper and brass only

 

[xtreemchaos]

De-Ionised water is as good thats what i use the stuff to top car batterys up. thanks for trying it you wont be disapointed bud.

 

[FireFox]

soft looks like shit.

I feel safer when using soft tubing.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

I feel safer when using soft tubing.

Me too, had a disaster with hard tubes. Never again. It's a pain to setup. a pain to strip down, a pain to bend correctly. Nothing wrong with soft tubes, it's what everyone used before hard line with no problems. Hard line is more for looks than practicality.

 

[xtreemchaos]

with hard tube the more you do the better you get, everybody messes up its human nature, i mess up from time to time and i learn then forget and mess up again you was just unlucky mate the odds are against it happening again are shorter.

 

[Ferd]

Hard line is more for looks than practicality.

I think hardlines are carried out from other applications, where it’s not just for looks but are a must to avoid tubes bursting unders pressure...
But you’re right, in a low pressure scenario like pc loops it’s an individual preference more than anything

 

[Valantar]

I feel safer when using soft tubing.

I would never go for hard tubing, no matter what. I guess I could use it in part if I wanted to hide some straight runs (i.e. in lieu of a distro plate, with soft tubing leading from it to all components), but it seems like such a hassle, I frankly don't like the looks all that much, and it seems like an utter nightmare for maintenance. I use EK's ZMT neoprene soft tubing, and it's rock solid, looks good, and is not too hard to work with. It's much stiffer than most soft tubing, so there are some extra considerations when working with it, but it's a pure joy when installed. Looks good, essentially kink-proof, easily cut to length, etc.

 

[FireFox]

I don't have any problems bending tubing because i have done it already for three of my friends, it's easy after you learn how to do it, but for my own PC i would never use it.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

I'm using EK ZMT black now, nice tubing, didn't bother with clear as i don't use coloured water and don't need to see the fluid in the tubes.

 

[xtreemchaos]

i like soft tube as much as hard i done it many times, i like the black stuff the most cus we all know how the clear changes colour over time and theres skill needed to to make a soft tube look at its best in my view as much as any tubing apart from glass or SS.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

I think if i was going to use hard lines again, i would use glass or copper pipes. Didn't really like the acrylic either, so fucking brittle. imo the glass borosilicate is probably the best, using only straight runs and 90' adapters to get the corners.

 

[FireFox]

I'm using EK ZMT black now, nice tubing, didn't bother with clear as i don't use coloured water and don't need to see the fluid in the tubes.

I don't like clear soft tubing, neither coloured coolant.

This is what i like/use

Primochill Brilliant UV Blue.

 

[ThrashZone]

Hi,
I like the octopus look of soft tubing I don't bother cutting it short as possible I like the extra slack if you disconnect tubing very much it's good to trim off the used end so you get a fresh connection reassembling.
It also allows me to move/ remove items like the reservoir out of the case to make room to do other things more easily
Of course QDC are an obvious joy to remove items without draining gpu/ cpu where ever one decides to connect a pair

Lots of clear tubing releases plaster after time the cost of cheap clear tubing that no manufacture advertises lol
This stuff from modmymods is pvc sold by the foot and I've been using it over a year and is pretty good they do say if you ask them it's non plaster
All I use now is clear concentrate fluids just redid all of my loops a few months ago.

ModMyMods 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD Flexible PVC Tubing - Crystal Clear (MOD-0003) - 3/8” ID x 5/8” OD Soft Tubing - Tubing ModMyMods.com - PC Watercooling Parts and Accessories

 

[Valantar]

Hi,
I like the octopus look of soft tubing I don't bother cutting it sort as possible I like the extra slack if you disconnect tubing very much it's good to trim off the used end so you get a fresh connection reassembling.
It also allows me to move/ remove items like the reservoir out of the case to make room to do other things more easily
Of course QDC are an obvious joy to remove items without draining gpu/ cpu where ever one decides to connect a pair

Lots of clear tubing releases plaster after time the cost of cheap clear tubing that no manufacture advertises lol
This stuff from modmymods is pvc sold by the foot and I've been using it over a year and is pretty good they do say if you ask them it's non plaster
All I use now is clear concentrate fluids just redid all of my loops a few months ago.

ModMyMods 3/8" ID x 5/8" OD Flexible PVC Tubing - Crystal Clear (MOD-0003) - 3/8” ID x 5/8” OD Soft Tubing - Tubing ModMyMods.com - PC Watercooling Parts and Accessories

Plaster? You mean plasticizer?

 

[ThrashZone]

Plaster? You mean plasticizer?

Hi,
Settle for sludge lol

I think if i was going to use hard lines again, i would use glass or copper pipes. Didn't really like the acrylic either, so fucking brittle. imo the glass borosilicate is probably the best, using only straight runs and 90' adapters to get the corners.

Yeah copper would be a nice steampunk build

 

[Bones]

hi m8,

Nice bit of DIY, but, where's the cooling component of the loop = no radiator/fans ??

I quote myself:

Still have some things to fix and refine but the basic concept of it's application works.

This wasn't done to illustrate a final "Product" either, was done to show the intital concept itself is viable enough it can work.
The rad is the next step and I'll need to make a way to safely (Enough) drain the system for maintenance and such.

 

[Valantar]

I quote myself:


This wasn't done to illustrate a final "Product" either, was done to show the intital concept itself is viable enough it can work.
The rad is the next step and I'll need to make a way to safely (Enough) drain the system for maintenance and such.

You call this a "mini AIO" for RAM - where is the pump going? In/on the rad? RAM waterblocks aren't new after all, so I'm curious as to what the concept is here.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I don't like clear soft tubing, neither coloured coolant.

This is what i like/use

View attachment 217823

Primochill Brilliant UV Blue.

Those come in a lot of different colors too.

 

[FireFox]

Those come a lot of different colors.

I use just Blue

 

[Bones]

You call this a "mini AIO" for RAM - where is the pump going? In/on the rad? RAM waterblocks aren't new after all, so I'm curious as to what the concept is here.

Who needs a rad when I'll be dumping ice directly into the res?
Yes, a rad can be added no prob and I do have plans for that later but that's not how I'll be running it at first. Besides, if using ice a rad induces heat instead of removing it like I'd want it to do in this case.
That's the plan here and those that know me "Get it".

And if that doesn't work out, again adding a rad is not a problem and it's even on the list of things to get done - Just not right away.

 

[Valantar]

Who needs a rad when I'll be dumping ice directly into the res?
Yes, a rad can be added no prob and I do have plans for that later but that's not how I'll be running it at first. Besides, if using ice a rad induces heat instead of removing it like I'd want it to do in this case.
That's the plan here and those that know me "Get it".

And if that doesn't work out, again adding a rad is not a problem andntta's even on the list of things to get done - Just not right away.

Ah, that sounds interesting Not quite what my mind goes to with the term AIO, but who cares? Sounds cool (pun definitely intended)!

 

[Bones]

The "Block" of the setup are the heatspreaders on the sticks themselves so you can think of it as a CPU with it's waterblock permenantly attached, all you have to do is hook up the hoses/tubing.

And I just finished sealing up the sticks, no leaks from the system itself but the sticks were a different story - Leaks everywhere.
Nothing a liberal application of some Form-A-Gasket coudn't fix.

That's why for the application test I did have them on the board but no power was applied and even has the PSU unplugged and unhooked from it, that way any leaks woudn't do any harm to the system or even me.
It has to be tested in the situation it's going to run in at first for such issues to see if "Where it is" will cause any problems. This way I'll catch those, deal with them and try again which I will be doing shortly to see if all the leaks are now sealed.

 

[AusWolf]

Heat transmittance function is not up to debate.

Exactly. And that's the reason why different elements of a cooling loop operate at different temperatures. Because heat is transferred! It's not constant. 79 °C water would only be able to keep the temperature of an 80 °C CPU level if it wasn't a heat source. But it is. With your analogy, you'd only need to run your home heating water temperatures at 22 °C to have 21 °C air temp in the house.

A random question: have you ever owned an AIO or custom loop that could monitor its internal coolant temperature?