More powerful, more expensive Playstation 5 speculation

[Guwapo77]

But we already have the slim, PS5 digital.

The slims come with a significant size reduction over the launch models. The digital doesn't qualify as it only omits the physical drive. It will be interesting to see what ideas they will incorporate for the future design.

 

[Ferrum Master]

There are not that many true PS5 games out there, what's the fuss even bothering with even more powerful one?

As Sony always does there will be silent upgrades regarding die shrinks and other components to make the console cheaper for them, that's their priority now.

 

[Guwapo77]

So the current PlayStation 5 has 400$ MSRP. I was wondering, what if Sony had another version (say PlayStation 5X) which had a 70% more powerful GPU. To put it in context, PS5's GPU is about as good as a RX 6600 XT. The 5X GPU I am suggesting would be on par with RX 6800 non-XT. The advantage of the 5x would be that it would allow for higher fps. A game that manages 30fps locked on PS5 ( for example Spider Man Miles Morales with RT ) would be able to reach 60fps locked on 5x (with some quality reductions).

So, how would this hypothetical PS5x do in the market? Would it sell well? What price do you think would be appropriate?

How would this hypothetical PS5x do in the market?
- Based on what we've seen over the past year, price doesn't really matter. May of us will be seriously upset with a MSRP of $700 or more, but I see it selling out the moment it touches the shelves.

Would it sell well?
- Absolutely. Anything south of MSRP of $800 it will fly off the shelves. I see a lot of the initial consoles hitting the resale market and being replaced with the Pro model. I'm one of those people except I don't resale, I give it to someone in the family.

What price do you think would be appropriate?
- I answered that above - $699.99

There are not that many true PS5 games out there, what's the fuss even bothering with even more powerful one?

As Sony always does there will be silent upgrades regarding die shrinks and other components to make the console cheaper for them, that's their priority now.

Pro specific games launch with better frame rates and sometimes visuals. It doesn't matter if its a "true" game or not...mo' powa baby.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Pro specific games launch with better frame rates and sometimes visuals. It doesn't matter if its a "true" game or not...mo' powa baby.

Pretty much BS. You cannot make true next gen without cutting the ties with previous gen. It is all just lipstick on a pig.

 

[WhoDecidedThat]

Pretty much BS. You cannot make true next gen without cutting the ties with previous gen. It is all just lipstick on a pig.

Agreed. But consider this, Spiderman Miles Morales has 3 modes:

- Fidelity - 30 fps, uses Ray Tracing, aims 4K
- Performance - 60 fps, no RT + some other visual reductions, aims 4K
- Performance RT - 60 fps, uses Ray Tracing, has other visual reductions, aims 1440p

My hypothetical PS5 Pro would allow for Performance RT mode to reach Fidelity level quality (because of the extra graphics processing power) while retaining 60 fps and that is something many people will be willing to pay extra money and physical space (because the more powerful console will need bigger case so that it can have a bigger, better cooler).

Sony could even make the deal a little sweeter by doubling the SSD capacity for PS5 Pro, allowing it to have over 1.3 Terbytes of usable storage (advertised as 1.65 TB).

I think it's a really big missed opportunity for this generation. Xbox has a Series S and X but Series S having an underpowered 4 TFlop GPU (vs Series X's 12 TFlops) is a big F. I would have much preferred a dual console strategy that has a standard 400$ console and then a 700-800$ bigger, faster console that pushes visual quality even higher.

As I said, imagine having the hardware to play Miles Morales in PS5's 30 fps Fidelity Mode at a smooth 60fps. Or being able to play The Matrix UE5 demo at 60fps (right now it's tuned at 30 fps).

 

[oobymach]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, Ps5 comes in an 8k variant.

 

[Guwapo77]

Pretty much BS. You cannot make true next gen without cutting the ties with previous gen. It is all just lipstick on a pig.

What are you talking about? The original statement said they don't have any true ps5 games as being a reason for not creating a PS5 Pro model.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, Ps5 comes in an 8k variant.

Comically there is a game that renders at 8k on PS5 even though the system doesn't currently output at that resolution.

The Touryst is the first 8K 60fps game for PS5

Shin'en Multimedia's brilliant game - The Touryst - is now available for PS4 and PS5 consoles and it is now confirmed a…

www.eurogamer.net

 

[Guwapo77]

Agreed. But consider this, Spiderman Miles Morales has 3 modes:

- Fidelity - 30 fps, uses Ray Tracing, aims 4K
- Performance - 60 fps, no RT + some other visual reductions, aims 4K
- Performance RT - 60 fps, uses Ray Tracing, has other visual reductions, aims 1440p

My hypothetical PS5 Pro would allow for Performance RT mode to reach Fidelity level quality (because of the extra graphics processing power) while retaining 60 fps and that is something many people will be willing to pay extra money and physical space (because the more powerful console will need bigger case so that it can have a bigger, better cooler).

Sony could even make the deal a little sweeter by doubling the SSD capacity for PS5 Pro, allowing it to have over 1.3 Terbytes of usable storage (advertised as 1.65 TB).

I think it's a really big missed opportunity for this generation. Xbox has a Series S and X but Series S having an underpowered 4 TFlop GPU (vs Series X's 12 TFlops) is a big F. I would have much preferred a dual console strategy that has a standard 400$ console and then a 700-800$ bigger, faster console that pushes visual quality even higher.

As I said, imagine having the hardware to play Miles Morales in PS5's 30 fps Fidelity Mode at a smooth 60fps. Or being able to play The Matrix UE5 demo at 60fps (right now it's tuned at 30 fps).

...my whole point. I guess I need to write in excess around here. Let's not forget a further improvement on load times.

 

[sepheronx]

I am waiting for the next variant that is much cheaper before I purchase a PS5.

I purchased a disk one at a bestbuy in Kelowna BC. But returned it as I got it for my friend who then bitched at me that he told me he already bought one (I Know he didn't because decades of alcohol abuse has screwed his memory up beyond belief but he still blames everyone else). So I returned it. The girl at bestbuy more or less called me a retard for returning it cause she said I could of scalped it for a lot more. I kinda wanted to keep it but $710 CAD is way too much I am willing to spend on a game console. And I bought PS3 at $650 CAD when it released.......

 

[Chomiq]

Comically there is a game that renders at 8k on PS5 even though the system doesn't currently output at that resolution.

The Touryst is the first 8K 60fps game for PS5

Shin'en Multimedia's brilliant game - The Touryst - is now available for PS4 and PS5 consoles and it is now confirmed a…

www.eurogamer.net

And it's a great game. It also has a 4K120 mode AFAIK.

 

[Ferrum Master]

- Performance - 60 fps, no RT + some other visual reductions, aims 4K

Having 60FPS + RT and 4K? You understand how much more horsepower is needed for that?? Won't happen. Sony is still selling those things at loss, you imagine from them even more free gifts?

Be reasonable and quit the fanboy attitude.

Miles of Morales is really one rare example. Other games are just lazy jobs, maybe due Covid, but not yet.

First thing that Sony will do is make them cheaper. It has always been like that with playstations.

 

[Guwapo77]

Having 60FPS + RT and 4K? You understand how much more horsepower is needed for that?? Won't happen. Sony is still selling those things at loss, you imagine from them even more free gifts?

Be reasonable and quit the fanboy attitude.

Miles of Morales is really one rare example. Other games are just lazy jobs, maybe due Covid, but not yet.

First thing that Sony will do is make them cheaper. It has always been like that with playstations.

Actually, the disc version is not sold at a loss. The discless version should be breaking even relatively soon.

I do agree with you as I don't see 60FPS + RT at native 4K. It will need to be upscaled for all triple A titles. You also have titles like Ratchet and Clank which provides the Miles treatment. First party titles will be able to tap into the console a bit better.

Sony will make them cheaper to produce in no time. I have every major model of PlayStation since the OG PlayStation 1 (I'm missing the PS2 Slim).

 

[dirtyferret]

How would they cool it?

how would they power it using a brick power supply?

They will have to design and build a separate chassis and cooler for it. The 5X chassis would be bigger to accomodate the larger cooler.

new chassis like a...PC case? new GPU cooler like a...after market GPU cooler? New power supply like a...PC power supply?

 

[Deleted member 24505]

how would they power it using a brick power supply?

new chassis like a...PC case? new GPU cooler like a...after market GPU cooler? New power supply like a...PC power supply?

Hence a PC is better than a console.

 

[qubit]

Pretty much BS. You cannot make true next gen without cutting the ties with previous gen. It is all just lipstick on a pig.

Umm, no, that's completely wrong.

The PC that you're using right now is a perfect example of how you're wrong. Compare it to a 20 year old model. There are vast differences between them, yet your modern one will be able to run 99%+ of the software that the old one does, it will also run loads of software that the old one can't and finally, the capability and performance (especially graphics) is orders of magnitude faster than that museum piece. So, how was "cutting ties" necessary to make a true next gen PC?

 

[FreedomEclipse]

How would they cool it?

Though seriously.... Sony could play around with the design of the chassis. Add some heatpipes that lead to a side panel thats made out of aluminium for some passive cooling all the while still having a fan that draws air through the case to make a hybrid cooling solution.

I mean obviously this will add $5000 to the base price of the PS5 but if you want it, you gotta sell your kids for it.

 

[Chrispy_]

Close enough, but I am thinking more in the lines of midlife optimisation.

That normally happens when the silicon moves to new process node resulting in a smaller die that's cheaper to make, and a lower TDP which results in a cheaper, smaller console that uses a smaller power brick and requires less expensive cooling.

TSMC 6nm probably isn't enough of a change to be worth bothering with - it's a replacement for N7 and offers 15% die area reductions at best, and should be compared to a lower-cost N7+ rather than anything new.

TSMC 5nm is mostly gobbled up by Apple. Whilst it does supposedly have the die-area and efficiency improvements to make a PS5 slim a reality, AMD and Nvidia alike are basically getting table scraps in terms of TSMC 5nm allocation so they won't be in a hurry to waste that allocation on low-profit console parts when they could instead be using it for EPYC processors at $7000, RDNA3 GPU flagships at $1500+ MSRP, or Radeon Instinct accelerators for five-digit sums. Limited allocation means that the most profitable parts get priority and that's definitely not console chips.

 

[Ferrum Master]

Umm, no, that's completely wrong.

The PC that you're using right now is a perfect example of how you're wrong. Compare it to a 20 year old model. There are vast differences between them, yet your modern one will be able to run 99%+ of the software that the old one does, it will also run loads of software that the old one can't and finally, the capability and performance (especially graphics) is orders of magnitude faster than that museum piece. So, how was "cutting ties" necessary to make a true next gen PC?

The Jaguar cores have never been really used in a desktop PC, only in ultra portables. It was anemic even when it released. So games from PS4 on PS5? It's they way it should be? It is lipstick on a pig so far. Okay I agree Covid played a great role on it, delaying everything, including our life.

You have to sweat through your code to not induce bottlenecks and create stutter. Bad code induces stutter in between the same generation Xbox'es and PS5/4, because they are not like 100% same. You have to sit, tailor, debug on each platform. Screw it. It all ends up watering down, and putting in weird code in every game that actually doesn't compile the same way on any platform, including ports on PC. That includes physics, AI, Engine, input, and GPU scheduling load as the deadlines come near. You simply cannot brute force any game. Even on PC there are loads of shit console ports that fail this exact idea, you can choke on that single thread load, tied and hardcoded 30FPS physics engine or audio lip-sync. The dev has to work on that dev kit since day 0. If you think you can push any code out there without consequences you either work at Bethesda or Microsoft... but oh wait...

I also had many consoles including PSX and up. The real deal, the real games emerge only like two years after launch. You also overdid with that 20 year limit. You could not even install an old XP or win98 dosbox to play those older titles around 2002. You have to use a Retro PC actually and most modern cards lack instruction sets from early directx8.x and 9a, those are depreciated, I won't even touch the HW sound and limited resolution topic. Ties were cut already.

You cannot compare consoles that has had even direct ASM code injection as they needed speed, just like in PS3 era, in latter years same happened in PS4, Sony is greatly contributing in Linux LLVM Clang because of the HW being so anemic. You never see such tailoring in a PC. It ain't apples to apples.

Another point of this overall speculation being BS is overall shortage of semiconductors and passives as such. There won't be another PRO version in at least two years for sure, just shrinks and cost optimizations.

 

[ARF]

So, Jaguar was worse than Bulldozer. Why didn't they use a little downclocked Bulldozer with the aim to shrink it as soon as possible?!
Stupid, stupid Sony. Must always stay with the Cell Broadband Engine

 

[Vayra86]

Umm, no, that's completely wrong.

The PC that you're using right now is a perfect example of how you're wrong. Compare it to a 20 year old model. There are vast differences between them, yet your modern one will be able to run 99%+ of the software that the old one does, it will also run loads of software that the old one can't and finally, the capability and performance (especially graphics) is orders of magnitude faster than that museum piece. So, how was "cutting ties" necessary to make a true next gen PC?

While I agree in part... look at the transitions between, for example, DirectX versions. Especially the last switch from 11 to newer API's. One MAJOR complaint everyone has is how DX12 games would run shittier than their DX11 counterparts... that's the effect of not cutting ties. Those DX12 versions of games were literally lipsticked pigs.

Now consider Vulkan, that does not have such legacy, or a native DX12 developed game.

Its extremely true in software development that a clean slate opens up new ways to work, while having to deal with legacy alongside the new is going to slow everything down: your development speed, your ability to match featuresets between APIs (in this example) or the actual products, improvements in complexity and size, etc. You're literally just working around your old crap all the time.

I do configuration for insurance products and let me tell you, even there, legacy is responsible for I think 85% of our problems and its holding back new developments every day, for years now

 

[ARF]

While I agree in part... look at the transitions between, for example, DirectX versions. Especially the last switch from 11 to newer API's. One MAJOR complaint everyone has is how DX12 games would run shittier than their DX11 counterparts... that's the effect of not cutting ties. Those DX12 versions of games were literally lipsticked pigs.

Now consider Vulkan, that does not have such legacy, or a native DX12 developed game.

Its extremely true in software development that a clean slate opens up new ways to work, while having to deal with legacy alongside the new is going to slow everything down: your development speed, your ability to match featuresets between APIs (in this example) or the actual products, improvements in complexity and size, etc. You're literally just working around your old crap all the time.

I do configuration for insurance products and let me tell you, even there, legacy is responsible for I think 85% of our problems and its holding back new developments every day, for years now

Well, DirectX 10.1 from AMD was really good. But was sabotaged by Nvidia and its shenanigans.

We have been following a brewing controversy over the PC version of Assassin’s Creed and its support for AMD Radeon graphics cards with DirectX 10.1 for some time now. The folks at Rage3D first broke this story by noting some major performance gains in the game on a Radeon HD 3870 X2 with antialiasing enabled after Vista Service Pack 1 is installed—gains of up to 20%. Vista SP1, of course, adds support for DirectX version 10.1, among other things. Rage3D’s Alex Voicu also demonstrated some instances of higher quality antialiasing—some edges were touched that otherwise would not be—with DX10.1. Currently, only Radeon HD 3000-series GPUs are DX10.1-capable, and given AMD’s struggles of late, the positive news about DX10.1 support in a major game seemed like a much-needed ray of hope for the company and for Radeon owners.

Ubisoft comments on Assassin's Creed DX10.1 controversy - UPDATED - The Tech Report

Well, I think the software development legacy issues can be solved if Microsoft divides Windows for working environment, and Windows for home entertainment environment.
Because the companies' conservative attitudes and lack of initiative to upgrade to newer software and hardware causes the pain for Microsoft to support these old versions.

Just count that the companies use very old Windows versions - 20H1 W10, while the newest in the Fast ring should be 22H2 or something...

 

[Vayra86]

Well, DirectX 10.1 from AMD was really good. But was sabotaged by Nvidia and its shenanigans.


Ubisoft comments on Assassin's Creed DX10.1 controversy - UPDATED - The Tech Report

Well, I think the software development legacy issues can be solved if Microsoft divides Windows for working environment, and Windows for home entertainment environment.
Because the companies' conservative attitudes and lack of initiative to upgrade to newer software and hardware causes the pain for Microsoft to support these old versions.

Just count that the companies use very old Windows versions - 20H1 W10, while the newest in the Fast ring should be 22H2 or something...

How the F did you even manage to bring an AMD/NV war sentiment responding to that post. Amazing.

Get a life.

 

[ARF]

How the F did you even manage to bring an AMD/NV war sentiment responding to that post.

Because you stated the problem with the APIs. Claiming that DX12 is wrong. I claim that Nvidia is wrong and causes the issues.

 

[WhoDecidedThat]

Having 60FPS + RT and 4K? You understand how much more horsepower is needed for that??

That is why I proposed a more expensive (700+$), more powerful variant. Similar to what Series X is for Series S.

Just saying that, in the PC market we have the choice of a RTX 3060 Ti (for most people) or RTX 3080 Ti (for enthusiasts), I would like if there was a enthusiast choice for consoles. Of course that is in a market where normal PS5s were plentiful. With the current chip shortages, I don't think a PS5 Pro makes sense.