RAM Size & Speed Recommendation

[8tyone]

Yeah, those XMPs are good timings for those speeds. However, the Teamgroup Vulcan Z 3600MHz 18-22-22-42 1.35V you mentioned would actually be the better buy for an 11400f as you would get about a 3% to 5% bump from the higher clocks. It many not seem like much, but it can make a difference in some situations like the uses you will be putting to task.

But as said here cl18 rams are really hard to make it work with xmp, might not even work at all, what say you?

 

[lexluthermiester]

But as said here cl18 rams are really hard to make it work with xmp, might not even work at all, what say you?

I've never had a problem with XMP. On a few occasions a small voltage bump was needed to counteract system Vdroop conditions, but never not been able to make XMP timings work as intended. Tweaking is a part of the PC experience sometimes. Now if you want perfect guaranteed stability, you want to go with the automatic JEDEC settings but if you're going to use XMP, be ready to do a bit of tweaking if it doesn't take perfectly, which is uncommon.

 

[8tyone]

I've never had a problem with XMP. On a few occasions a small voltage bump was needed to counteract system Vdroop conditions, but never not been able to make XMP timings work as intended. Tweaking is a part of the PC experience sometimes. Now if you want perfect guaranteed stability, you want to go with the automatic JEDEC settings but if you're going to use XMP, be ready to do a bit of tweaking if it doesn't take perfectly, which is uncommon.

I certainly wont be running at jedec speeds but I am more confused now. Is there a chance that the pc might not even boot even after tweaking? How much tweaking are we talking about to make it work if it doesnt work in the first place? I wont be using high-end motherboards (this or at most that). What do you think?
This is the screenshot of the model from its brochure:

Brochure link: https://www.teamgroupinc.com/en/catalog/act.php?act=2&index_id=152

 

[Deleted member 202104]

One thing to keep in mind - running Gear 1 at anything over 3200 is going to depend on the individual CPU. Some can, and some can't. I think W1zzard spoke to this in the Rocket Lake reviews. There's a recent thread here by someone who can't get 3600 Gear 1 stable with their 11400.

You'll be much better off running 3200 Gear 1 over 3600 Gear 2.

Personally I'd recommend 32GB (2x16) of the lowest CL you can find.

If you have access to Team Group in your area, see if you can find these:

Amazon.com

They may be way out of the budget as low CL DIMMs come at a huge premium - So much that it's probably not worth doubling the cost of RAM for the performance increase unless you're using a really high-end GPU.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Is there a chance that the pc might not even boot even after tweaking?

If(and that's a BIG if) the XMP profiles have an issue, then yes. But resetting the bios and trying a different setting is easy. The thing is, no one XMP profile or RAM brand is more problematic than another.

But again, the chance of having a problem is very low and not really worth worrying about.

(this or at most that). What do you think?

I would lean toward the AsRock as they are a much better company who has great customer service and they focus on quality & the end user experience!

This is the screenshot of the model from its brochure:

Brochure link: https://www.teamgroupinc.com/en/catalog/act.php?act=2&index_id=152

That 3600 kit looks solid! If you can get a 32GB kit for a good price, you'll be off and running.

 

[GorbazTheDragon]

Even the product code is almost identical.

Doesnt matter, they will use different ICs.

And anyway, as mentioned 2x4 kits are way worse price wise than 2x8 kits. If you need more than 16GB, get 32. End of story.

However, the Teamgroup Vulcan Z 3600MHz 18-22-22-42 1.35V you mentioned would actually be the better buy for an 11400f as you would get about a 3% to 5% bump from the higher clocks.

You don't, performance does NOT scale with memory clocks. In fact, I've actually tested exactly that kit and it performed worse than a crucial 3200c16 rev e kit I have (not really surprising because the team one uses 16Gbit chips which results in certain timings being guaranteed worse).

it can make a difference in some situations

In the vast majority of gaming situations even an a proper memory overclock (3600 14-14-14 with tuned subtimings) does not give any performance because most people play GPU, not CPU bound. And even if you are CPU bound, there are a lot of games that do not benefit from a memory OC.

But as said here cl18 rams are really hard to make it work

The 3600CL18 ones are generally low quality and from my testing often do not reach their XMP speeds. Even if it was only 1/5 kits, I would avoid them. Especially considering as I said before, you get NO reliable performance benefit out of 3600c18 over 3200c16.

But again, the chance of having a problem is very low and not really worth worrying about.

It is substantially higher with 3600c18 kits than 3200c16 kits.

 

[lexluthermiester]

You don't, performance does NOT scale with memory clocks.

Yeah, it does. Not dramatically, but it does scale up.

In fact,

Nope, opinion.

It is substantially higher with 3600c18 kits than 3200c16 kits.

I have NEVER had XMP problems with anything lower than 4200mhz. Last time it happened was over a year ago and the set just needed a voltage bump to account for vdroop. XMP is very stable. Quit making a mountain out a mole-hill. The OP came here looking for help making the best choice for their use case scenario. They didn't come here for people giving them poor advice.

A 32GB 3600CL18 kit from Team is an excellent choice that will give rock-solid performance at good value.

 

[8tyone]

If you have access to Team Group in your area, see if you can find these:

Amazon.com

They may be way out of the budget as low CL DIMMs come at a huge premium - So much that it's probably not worth doubling the cost of RAM for the performance increase unless you're using a really high-end GPU.

Yes they are really expensive unavailable and with the 11400 might not be even worth it.

Doesnt matter, they will use different ICs.

And anyway, as mentioned 2x4 kits are way worse price wise than 2x8 kits. If you need more than 16GB, get 32. End of story.

You don't, performance does NOT scale with memory clocks. In fact, I've actually tested exactly that kit and it performed worse than a crucial 3200c16 rev e kit I have (not really surprising because the team one uses 16Gbit chips which results in certain timings being guaranteed worse).

In the vast majority of gaming situations even an a proper memory overclock (3600 14-14-14 with tuned subtimings) does not give any performance because most people play GPU, not CPU bound. And even if you are CPU bound, there are a lot of games that do not benefit from a memory OC.

The 3600CL18 ones are generally low quality and from my testing often do not reach their XMP speeds. Even if it was only 1/5 kits, I would avoid them. Especially considering as I said before, you get NO reliable performance benefit out of 3600c18 over 3200c16.

It is substantially higher with 3600c18 kits than 3200c16 kits.

Yeah, it does. Not dramatically, but it does scale up.

Nope, opinion.

I have NEVER had XMP problems with anything lower than 4200mhz. Last time it happened was over a year ago and the set just needed a voltage bump to account for vdroop. XMP is very stable. Quit making a mountain out a mole-hill. The OP came here looking for help making the best choice for their use case scenario. They didn't come here for people giving them poor advice.

A 32GB 3600CL18 kit from Team is an excellent choice that will give rock-solid performance at good value.

GorbazTheDragon and Lexluthermiester thanks for helping and teaching me about the nuances of xmp and memory compatibility. Researching on the internet I found out that indeed RocketLake has problems with memory compatibility and going safe seems like a good option, on the other hand I am all for overlclocking and tweaking, I used to have real fun ocing my amd 6300 cpu but I had real problems with memory stability and the consequences for buying ram that might not work on my setup is high as there is no such thing as a return policy here (maybe for doa) but if it works in their system you are done. Also, there is the possibility that the 3600mhz ram when underclocked to 3200MHz (if it doesn't work on 3600mhz) might perform worse than the 3200MHz stick because of looser timings.
Lex you talked about voltage bump, would you consider 1.45V (for the 3600mhz kit) be safe for long term usage, I would keep this setup for min of 3 years.

 

[GorbazTheDragon]

Safe voltage depends on the memory chips in the sticks, there are some ICs which already become less stable going from 1.25 to 1.35v. Others, such as b-die will run happily at over 1.6v without any known degradation risk.

 

[8tyone]

Safe voltage depends on the memory chips in the sticks, there are some ICs which already become less stable going from 1.25 to 1.35v. Others, such as b-die will run happily at over 1.6v without any known degradation risk.

Is there a way to know if its bdie or samsung or hynix ic from the serial no itself?

 

[Chomiq]

Is there a way to know if its bdie or samsung or hynix ic from the serial no itself?

B-Die Finder

Find Samsung B-Die DDR 4 memory kits on Amazon, Newegg and many more.

benzhaomin.github.io

 

[lexluthermiester]

Lex you talked about voltage bump, would you consider 1.45V (for the 3600mhz kit) be safe for long term usage, I would keep this setup for min of 3 years.

For that Team kit that might be a bit much. 1.375v would likely be safer and still offer stability. RAM tweaks do not need to be huge. Remember, the 1.35v that kit is spec'd for is already .15v over JEDEC standard.

Safe voltage depends on the memory chips in the sticks, there are some ICs which already become less stable going from 1.25 to 1.35v. Others, such as b-die will run happily at over 1.6v without any known degradation risk.

There is some truth to this.

Is there a way to know if its bdie or samsung or hynix ic from the serial no itself?

Even if you do get bdies, there is still no guarantee that you can overclock/overvolt them like mad. It will depend on the "silicon lottery" of the samples of RAM you get. When you get them, run them at their XMP spec.

 

[GorbazTheDragon]

Is there a way to know if its bdie or samsung or hynix ic from the serial no itself?

B-die you will only find in specific bins, like 3200 15-15-15, 3600 16-16-16, etc.

The manufacturer doesn't determine whether an IC scales with voltage or not. One of the 16Gbit dies I tested before (a patriot 3600 18-22-22 kit) was samsung M-die and that was more stable at 1.25v than it was at the 1.35v XMP. It was one of those kits that did not run XMP. Another kit I had was hynix, probably 16Gbit MJR, and that one was not possible to get memtest stable above 1.35v. 3600 18-22-22 and 3200 16-18-18 are lottery bins since there are a lot of ICs that are capable of doing that speed and timing combination. (In contrast to b-die which is the only IC capable of reliably doing for example 3200 14-14-14 or 4000 16-16-16.

 

[8tyone]

Seems like I have made up my mind. Thank you everyone for the help.

 

[Waldorf]

@8tyone​

unless you really need space, i go for speed, as overall use isnt improving, the faster clocks will help more than capacity.
a 2x8 3600cl14/16 kit would make more sense.


@lexluthermiester
regarding "poor" advise: i would say that too when recommending 32gb kit without knowing if user actually needs it.
almost everyone that doesnt know, are better of getting faster 16 kit.

for bdie:
any ddr4 4000cl19 or 3600cl14 is bdie, at least form what i could research on the web and used to pick sticks..

 

[lexluthermiester]

regarding "poor" advise: i would say that too when recommending 32gb kit without knowing if user actually needs it.

It would seem you have skipped over important parts of the conversation, including the OP. That's on you.

 

[Waldorf]

nope, just love when ppl recommend 32gb, without knowing if its actually needed (e.g video editing all day),
and so far you only say "good to have" which to me implies, not really needed righ now,
and user will only have it for 3y, so by that time, upgrade to 32gb on the next rig is still open.

never seen gaming speeding up on 32gb vs 16gb, besides some games like simulators, but nothing covering +50% of gamers.
users "liking" something on a setup, isnt really an indicator, as my friends 15y old son loves rgb bling, doesnt mean i will

i do need to say, i dont use any of the users other sw, that might benefit, but than it would be helpful to state it,
which you didnt.

 

[lexluthermiester]

nope, just love when ppl recommend 32gb, without knowing if its actually needed (e.g video editing all day),

Given what the op mentioned, more than 16GB is a good idea. I did suggest a combination with 24GB as a total, but the OP wanted to keep it simple, so the next logical jump from 16GB is 32GB.

Better to have more than is needed rather than not have enough.

 

[Deleted member 202104]

nope, just love when ppl recommend 32gb, without knowing if its actually needed (e.g video editing all day),
and so far you only say "good to have" which to me implies, not really needed righ now,
and user will only have it for 3y, so by that time, upgrade to 32gb on the next rig is still open.

never seen gaming speeding up on 32gb vs 16gb, besides some games like simulators, but nothing covering +50% of gamers.
users "liking" something on a setup, isnt really an indicator, as my friends 15y old son loves rgb bling, doesnt mean i will

i do need to say, i dont use any of the users other sw, that might benefit, but than it would be helpful to state it,
which you didnt.

The OP specifically mentioned Forza Horizon 5. When the game launched I was doing some troubleshooting on another PC of mine that was equipped with 16GB of DDR4 running 3800 C16. The game itself gave a warning that the system was running low on memory. The only items running on the PC were Steam and the game. Faster RAM on that box didn't help in this specific instance, and is the reason I recommended 32GB for the OP.

It's really only a sign of things to come over the next few years - 32GB is a really good idea unless there's absolutely no budget for it.

 

[lexluthermiester]

The OP specifically mentioned Forza Horizon 5. When the game launched I was doing some troubleshooting on another PC of mine that was equipped with 16GB of DDR4 running 3800 C16. The game itself gave a warning that the system was running low on memory. The only items running on the PC were Steam and the game. Faster RAM on that box didn't help in this specific instance, and is the reason I recommended 32GB for the OP.

It's really only a sign of things to come over the next few years - 32GB is a really good idea unless there's absolutely no budget for it.

And this a good example of games that are increasing in need of both VRAM and system RAM. The gaming systems I sell in my shop have a minimum of 24GB these days with 32GB being a very common option.

 

[Waldorf]

sure that wasnt vram?
still, to me seems to be more of a problem with the game, rather than setup,
my friend has 16gb (8gb vram) on the VR rig, and MS flight sim runs fine without having 32gb.

24gb makes no sense for DC rigs nowadays, unless i missed there are 2x12gb kits

 

[Deleted member 202104]

sure that wasnt vram?
still, to me seems to be more of a problem with the game, rather than setup,
my friend has 16gb (8gb vram) on the VR rig, and MS flight sim runs fine without having 32gb.

24gb makes no sense for DC rigs nowadays, unless i missed there are 2x12gb kits

Yep. The system was a 10850k, 16GB 3800, and RX 6800 (16GB of VRAM).

 

[lexluthermiester]

24gb makes no sense for DC rigs nowadays, unless i missed there are 2x12gb kits

2x8GB=16GB+2x4GB=8GB
16GB+8GB=24GB

 

[GorbazTheDragon]

Hahahah I'm still not over someone unironically recommending this config

 

[lexluthermiester]

Hahahah I'm still not over someone unironically recommending this config

I sell PC's With 24GB, more than a fair number of them. Not one customer has ever complained. Many come back to tell us that they're happy with the extra 8GB of RAM as it's been useful to them. You can laugh all you wish, but I'm laughing all the way to the bank.