Why is battery technology so behind the times?

[R-T-B]

Not as long as capitalism exists in its current form.

It was a rhetorical... but short of robots that take over our government and make instant lunchables for us... yeah no.

Besides in that scenario, the lunchables are probably made of people. Full circle.

 

[Assimilator]

It was a rhetorical...

I'm aware, but quite a few people on this forum aren't.

Besides in that scenario, the lunchables are probably made of people. Full circle.

As long as the Soylent Green is made out of anti-vaxxers, I have no problems.

 

[lexluthermiester]

A Taiwanese Solid-State Lithium Ceramic Battery manufacturer recently posted a Corporate Promo video, so it was recently in mind coming back across this thread.

About ProLogium

If you search for "solid-state lithium ceramic battery" you will find a lot of non-company-specific information about the relevant technology. I think they first came to my notice from a YouTuber demonstrating a free sample; including cutting the cell up while under load. That seriously impressed me.

Seemed relevent

This actually looks promising.

 

[The red spirit]

I guess its because the world is relatively going from 0-100 real quick as far as demand for electric cars go and the industry not having enough money ploughed into the R&D department to respond to life sized RC cars.

Most EVs are too fast anyway. I sometimes look at their ads and they have really low 0-100 numbers, but at the same times they are so good, that it makes those cars barely drivable. The scary aspect isn't even that they are fast, but that they are heavy AF, most likely don't handle well at all and have disproportionally not so good brakes for car like that. And any bigger puncture and those cars start to burn and from what we know today, EV fires are really hard to put down. It must be quite boring to have a 4 second car in a world of 13 second cars. This obsession with EV 0-100 times needs to stop.

 

[ThaiTaffy]

Yeah, no. We don't even have working (net energy gain) fusion yet, even if (and it's still an if) we do get it working it is going to take years and vast amounts of money to commercialise the tech, then it's gonna take years and vast amounts of money to actually build the power plants, and then the companies owning the plants are going to want a return on their investments. It makes zero sense to stop any and all other progress just because fusion is hopefully going to solve everything, and if you believe fusion is going to lead to a future where energy is free then I have some bad news for you.

I know it's unrealistic it's just what I think we "should do" I have these Idealist thoughts regularly when the pandemic started I said to my partner "the whole world should get a week to prepare then have a global lockdown for a month to stop this", 2years on I still remind her " too late now".

 

[Assimilator]

Most EVs are too fast anyway. I sometimes look at their ads and they have really low 0-100 numbers, but at the same times they are so good, that it makes those cars barely drivable. The scary aspect isn't even that they are fast, but that they are heavy AF, most likely don't handle well at all and have disproportionally not so good brakes for car like that. And any bigger puncture and those cars start to burn and from what we know today, EV fires are really hard to put down. It must be quite boring to have a 4 second car in a world of 13 second cars. This obsession with EV 0-100 times needs to stop.

What did I just read...

I know it's unrealistic it's just what I think we "should do" I have these Idealist thoughts regularly when the pandemic started I said to my partner "the whole world should get a week to prepare then have a global lockdown for a month to stop this", 2years on I still remind her " too late now".

Oh I completely agree that there is so much we SHOULD and COULD be doing as a species, the problem is that capitalism has such a stranglehold on everything that the bright future that we dream of, where literally everything is free and people can live their lives as they choose, is sadly very unlikely to happen. I'm an idealist too but I also try to be pragmatic, which often comes across as pessimistic.

 

[Operandi]

Don't type stupid crap in a forum full of intellectuals and geeks.
Lithium AA rechargeables are here and have been for a while it's a 14500 lithium cell with the voltage split pretty much. People throw the "18650" name about like it's something special when it's only a dimension.

I know that the numbers designate a form factor of a Li-ion cell but none of them is a "AA battery" because the voltage of a Li-ion cell isn't the same as Ni-MH or alkaline.

The "Energizer Ultimate Lithium" referenced AAs are not Li-ion battersy and are not rechargeable, I'm only talking about those. Maybe you can recharge them but you are not supposed to. I don't know what their chemistry is or how they work and I don't really care because I think disposable high-end batteries are stupid.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I know that the numbers designate a form factor of a Li-ion cell but none of them is a "AA battery" because the voltage of a Li-ion cell isn't the same as Ni-MH or alkaline.

The "Energizer Ultimate Lithium" referenced AAs are not Li-ion battersy and are not rechargeable

Older versions of those were rechargeable. Like what happens so often, Energizer switched around their lineup and the naming schemes. You're doing nothing more than trolling and nitpicking at this point.

 

[Operandi]

Older versions of those were rechargeable. Like what happens so often, Energizer switched around their lineup and the naming schemes. You're doing nothing more than trolling and nitpicking at this point.

Not something I've ever seen in the real world, and they don't exist now which means they are old (probably discontinued for a reason) and irrelevant to the discussion. You are best case scenario selectively comparing things to suite your preconceived notions, none of what you are saying reflects reality. If you are after a specific energy density figure you can't compare a AA Li-ion battery to AA Ni-MH battery or a Li-ion AA battery to a Li-ion cell. Nobody makes rechargeable AA Li-ion batteries aside from weird Chinese shit you see on Amazon, those form factors are obsolete for performance applications. Compare modern Li-ion cells to modern Ni-MH (which has pretty much stagnated) cells on power to volume and weight metric not whatever old stuff you have laying around the house.

Bellow is take from https://www.epectec.com, they have the best consolidated statics on different batteries that I could find, it lines up with all the other research else I've looked at and aligns with my real world anecdotal experience.

I disagree with your assumption of Toyota here. I think Toyota was playing it cautious in moving in to the EV market to fast, as the infrastructure just wasn't and still isn't there yet. Toyota has announced a full line of EV's incoming, but I think they were wise and letting the tech grow a little before getting in to it.

Ultimately we'll just have to wait and see. Typically when the industry makes a big pivot being last to party is not a good thing.

Looking at the last 10 years of their product development hasn't been particularly impressive or inspiring for the future either. They needed BMW to build them a new Supra cause apparently didn't have the talent or enough money to do it themselves. The 86 is co-developed with Subaru which is fine but it would be nice to know they can build a high performance car without relying one someone's technology. The Tundra, Sequoia and and Landcruiser used the same platform and drivetrain for like 10+ years and while the Landcruiser is very capable off road (its also very expensive) its unremarkable otherwise the other two only sell because of "Toyota reliability" which is real thing but at some point becomes moot if you aren't producing competitive products.

That and they usually let their products do the talking but lately it seems like they making a lot of noise about their future EV line but not showing much to back it up, feels kinda desperate. At least when Tesla announces something its either exciting, or absurdly funny, Toyota's vapoware EV line up is the most boring thing I've ever seen. The one EV they'll have for 2023, the bZ4X looks basically like a VW ID.4 2-3 years late. Maybe they have more in pipeline and they just aren't showing their cards but either way they have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Space Lynx]

Not something I've ever seen in the real world, and they don't exist now which means they are old (probably discontinued for a reason) and irrelevant to the discussion. You are best case scenario selectively comparing things to suite your preconceived notions, none of what you are saying reflects reality. If you are after a specific energy density figure you can't compare a AA Li-ion battery to AA Ni-MH battery or a Li-ion AA battery to a Li-ion cell. Nobody makes rechargeable AA Li-ion batteries aside from weird Chinese shit you see on Amazon, those form factors are obsolete for performance applications. Compare modern Li-ion cells to modern Ni-MH (which has pretty much stagnated) cells on power to volume and weight metric not whatever old stuff you have laying around the house.

Bellow is take from https://www.epectec.com, they have the best consolidated statics on different batteries that I could find, it lines up with all the other research else I've looked at and aligns with my real world anecdotal experience.
View attachment 234176


Ultimately we'll just have to wait and see. Typically when the industry makes a big pivot being last to party is not a good thing.

Looking at the last 10 years of their product development hasn't been particularly impressive or inspiring for the future either. They needed BMW to build them a new Supra cause apparently didn't have the talent or enough money to do it themselves. The 86 is co-developed with Subaru which is fine but it would be nice to know they can build a high performance car without relying one someone's technology. The Tundra, Sequoia and and Landcruiser used the same platform and drivetrain for like 10+ years and while the Landcruiser is very capable off road (its also very expensive) its unremarkable otherwise the other two only sell because of "Toyota reliability" which is real thing but at some point becomes moot if you aren't producing competitive products.

That and they usually let their products do the talking but lately it seems like they making a lot of noise about their future EV line but not showing much to back it up, feels kinda desperate. At least when Tesla announces something its either exciting, or absurdly funny, Toyota's vapoware EV line up is the most boring thing I've ever seen. The one EV they'll have for 2023, the bZ4X looks basically like a VW ID.4 2-3 years late. Maybe they have more in pipeline and they just aren't showing their cards but either way they have a lot of catching up to do.

to be clear, I think Honda is the best car company in the world at the moment, and they also have or are coming in late to EV market.

but yeah that new Honda Civic re-design exterior and interior... the 2022 Civic is just drop dead sexy, i have seen one in person (but it was pre-sold) otherwise I prob would have got it over a corolla.


edit: personally I don't want EV. I plan to do a lot of road trips in the future, and last thing I want is to be sitting "fueling" my car for 3-4 hours on long trips. where as filling up a gas tank in 2 minutes, will allow me to enjoy 3-4 more hours on the long drive to wherever it is I am heading. not sure I get the love for EV personally, good for worker bees who never get vacations, but my job gives me 20 days vacation, so apologies for having a job that gives me quality of life? lol

 

[Operandi]

but yeah that new Honda Civic re-design exterior and interior... the 2022 Civic is just drop dead sexy, i have seen one in person (but it was pre-sold) otherwise I prob would have got it over a corolla.

The new Civic looks great, a complete 180 from the gundam on wheels thing they going on in previous generation. I'm looking forward what the Si and Type R versions bring.

 

[Space Lynx]

The new Civic looks great, a complete 180 from the gundam on wheels thing they going on in previous generation. I'm looking forward what the Si and Type R versions bring.

look at the interior of the civic 2022 if you have not seen. its sexy as ****

 

[FordGT90Concept]

View attachment 234176

Someone has to give a shout out to lead acid batteries. Of all the kinds, they are the easiest to recycle and are generally the safest.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Someone has to give a shout out to lead acid batteries. Of all the kinds, they are the easiest to recycle and are generally the safest.

True, but they are very heavy and not suited for many battery use situations. Still for a lot of situations they are ideal.

 

[Wirko]

Bellow is take from https://www.epectec.com, they have the best consolidated statics on different batteries that I could find, it lines up with all the other research else I've looked at and aligns with my real world anecdotal experience.

The original table is probably the one at Battery University, which is a vast and excellent resource for those who want to learn about batteries.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Do the amps produced by other types of batteries compare with lead acid? I know you can get Lion battery's for a motorcycle, but don't know about a car?

The great thing about lead acid type is they are highly recycled because of the lead in them, but are other types recyclable or just disposed of?

 

[trog100]

Do the amps produced by other types of batteries compare with lead acid? I know you can get Lion battery's for a motorcycle, but don't know about a car?

The great thing about lead acid type is they are highly recycled because of the lead in them, but are other types recyclable or just disposed of?

most lifepo4 12 volt batteries have a built in battery management system.. this limits the maximum discharge current to mostly 1c.. a 100 ah battery would have a maximum discharge current of 100 amps..

this make them unsuitable for car batteries.. motor cycles maybe but larger vehicle batteries are best suited to lead acid.. i think lead acid is here to stay for quite some time..

its the electronic battery management system that limits the lithium discharge rate not the lithium cells.. basally they are not designed as starter batteries.. i assume because there would be no demand for them..

trog

 

[FordGT90Concept]

The great thing about lead acid type is they are highly recycled because of the lead in them, but are other types recyclable or just disposed of?

There's virtually no li-ion recycling going on because it's not profitable. Other than the fire hazard (extremely toxic fumes and must be extinguished with chemicals because water doesn't work), it's my chief concern with the push for battery electric vehicles.

Li-ion can't cold-crank an ICE because it would damage the battery. You need a whole lot of li-ion cells to raise the voltage enough to get enough amps to crank it. The battery in a Tesla, for example, could cold crank an ICE but the battery in your typical hybrid (e.g. Honda Civic Hybrid) can't so it has a lead acid battery too.

 

[Shrek]

Li-ion can't cold-crank an ICE because it would damage the battery. You need a whole lot of li-ion cells to raise the voltage enough to get enough amps to crank it.

There are cranking Li-ion batteries

Dakota Lithium 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle LiFePO4 Performance

1000CCA is a lot

 

[FordGT90Concept]

$600 is a lot.

I get the impression that this battery can't be charged via an alternator so it can't be dropped in/replace an existing lead acid battery in a car. It's supposed to be charged using an included 12v 10 amp charger. Only works with a relatively low power alternator:

CHARGE VIA ALTERNATOR
Drop in replacement for lead acid and AGM starter batteries for vehicles and outboard motors. NOTE: THE DL+ 60Ah IS LIMITED TO AN ALTERNATOR CHARGING PROFILE OF 80 AMPS OR LESS.

Interesting lithium-iron-phosphate product I didn't know about though.


Oooo, would be nice to drop these into CyberPower UPS but I don't think the circuits in there are meant for anything other than SLA:

Dakota Lithium 12v 7Ah Battery

Buy Dakota Lithium 12v 7ah LiFePO4 battery. 2,000 charge cycles, a 100% capacity,11years warranty and lasts up to 5 times more than a regular SLA battery

dakotalithium.com

 

[Operandi]

Li-ion can't cold-crank an ICE because it would damage the battery. You need a whole lot of li-ion cells to raise the voltage enough to get enough amps to crank it. The battery in a Tesla, for example, could cold crank an ICE but the battery in your typical hybrid (e.g. Honda Civic Hybrid) can't so it has a lead acid battery too.

There are plenty of Li-ion jumper packs that start a car with a completely flat battery. Is the lead acid battery acting as buffer in that case so it dosn't damage the jumper pack? On Teslas they have a 12v battery too for starting and/or powering up the battery management and drivetrain computers, and I think they are even lead acid.

 

[Shrek]

Oooo, would be nice to drop these into CyberPower UPS but I don't think the circuits in there are meant for anything other than SLA:

Dakota Lithium 12v 7Ah Battery

Buy Dakota Lithium 12v 7ah LiFePO4 battery. 2,000 charge cycles, a 100% capacity,11years warranty and lasts up to 5 times more than a regular SLA battery

dakotalithium.com

And yet, this article has in the title "THE PERFECT SLA REPLACEMENT BATTERY"

Even better, there is a 10Ah version in the same size case
Dakota Lithium 12v 10Ah Battery - Half the Weight & Twice the Power

 

[trog100]

There are plenty of Li-ion jumper packs that start a car with a completely flat battery. Is the lead acid battery acting as buffer in that case so it dosn't damage the jumper pack? On Teslas they have a 12v battery too for starting and/or powering up the battery management and drivetrain computers, and I think they are even lead acid.

i have such a jump start device .. there is a youtube video of some guy starting an earth moving machine with a similar one.. it dosnt need any help from a lead acid battery.. its pretty near a full short circuit and isnt designed to run for long.. but five seconds should be enough to start an engine assuming its only problem is a flat starter battery.. i think it would manage maybe two engine starts but that is about all.. and that is remarkable for something that fits in your hand..

60 C rc batteries are quite common.. a 6 ah pack at 60 C would be 360 amps.. plenty to jump start a car engine.. several of them in fact..

trog

 

[Shrek]

There are plenty of Li-ion jumper packs that start a car with a completely flat battery. Is the lead acid battery acting as buffer in that case so it dosn't damage the jumper pack?

I'm for the buffer theory.

 

[R-T-B]

Someone has to give a shout out to lead acid batteries. Of all the kinds, they are the easiest to recycle and are generally the safest.

If recycled then yes. If they find their way anywhere else though their toxicity is through the roof. Just a slight concern, albeit minor compared to other disadvantages with weight, density, etc.

There are cranking Li-ion batteries

Those are lithium LiFePO3 batts, not Li-Ion.