Why is battery technology so behind the times?

[Shrek]

Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia

might be said to include LiFePO4

 

[LabRat 891]

Something else I didn't see mentioned when Lead Acids came back into this conversation:
EFB technology Lead Acid.
Also,
Carbon Foam AGM

Both take advantage of micro- and nano- engineering as well as allotropic carbon to enhance the Lead-Acid's performance.
EFBs came about to address the needs of Start-Stop ICE vehicles.
Carbon Foam AGM tech is limited to Marine and Commercial Solar applications currently.

 

[trog100]

I'm for the buffer theory.

they will work without a starter battery connected which kind of suggests the buffer theory is wrong

one other factor that isnt mentioned is you cant charge lifepo4 below 0 C it damages the cells .. something quite important with an engine starter battery..

trog

 

[Space Lynx]

There's virtually no li-ion recycling going on because it's not profitable. Other than the fire hazard (extremely toxic fumes and must be extinguished with chemicals because water doesn't work), it's my chief concern with the push for battery electric vehicles.

Li-ion can't cold-crank an ICE because it would damage the battery. You need a whole lot of li-ion cells to raise the voltage enough to get enough amps to crank it. The battery in a Tesla, for example, could cold crank an ICE but the battery in your typical hybrid (e.g. Honda Civic Hybrid) can't so it has a lead acid battery too.

one thing that interests me in regards to EV cars is long term sustainability. has anyone (scientist or company) actually sat down and done the math in regards to how much lithium there is (not just lithium but all the natural resources combined for a lithium battery, including the fresh water needed)

for example, short term greed is only way capitalism has ever worked. what happens if we find out that Lithium mine in Nevada only had 50-70 years of lithium in it? what do we do then? I don't know the answer, I am genuinely asking if anyone even knows how much natural resources are in the world/mineable to make x amount of batteries or y amount of years z amount of population.

NIckel is the best kind of battery I read as well, so how much Nickel is left in the world? the list goes on and on.

personally, I think what will happen one day is, we are going to wake up to a news headline that states: "pure sand used to create silicon has run out, we thought we had more sources, but since beach sand can't be used to make silicon we are out"... like how do we know we have enough pure sand (that is required to make silicon used to make the chips in the EV)...

these mining companies probably only do short term projections, I really doubt they dig heavy 50+ years into the future...

(to be clear its not just an answer to one of these questions that matters, its an answer to all of them, in a holistic way that matters) this is what scares me the most. humans sometimes know not what they do... so to speak.

(for the record I still wish hyperloop was getting proper RND funding)

 

[trog100]

one thing that interests me in regards to EV cars is long term sustainability. has anyone (scientist or company) actually sat down and done the math in regards to how much lithium there is (not just lithium but all the natural resources combined for a lithium battery, including the fresh water needed)

for example, short term greed is only way capitalism has ever worked. what happens if we find out that Lithium mine in Nevada only had 50-70 years of lithium in it? what do we do then? I don't know the answer, I am genuinely asking if anyone even knows how much natural resources are in the world/mineable to make x amount of batteries or y amount of years z amount of population.

NIckel is the best kind of battery I read as well, so how much Nickel is left in the world? the list goes on and on.

personally, I think what will happen one day is, we are going to wake up to a news headline that states: "pure sand used to create silicon has run out, we thought we had more sources, but since beach sand can't be used to make silicon we are out"... like how do we know we have enough pure sand (that is required to make silicon used to make the chips in the EV)...

these mining companies probably only do short term projections, I really doubt they dig heavy 50+ years into the future...

there is a blind belief in science that things will get fixed when they need to be.. one thing is for sure.. the planet earth will still be here when humans aint.. in the grand scheme of things do humans matter that much.. i dont think so..

trog

 

[R-T-B]

You can recycle battery materials pretty easily. Well, lithium is tricky of course, but I'm sure there is a way if a resource crisis presented itself.

 

[LabRat 891]

You can recycle battery materials pretty easily. Well, lithium is tricky of course, but I'm sure there is a way if a resource crisis presented itself.

Funny you mention that. Recently, in rebuilding some power tool packs I deep dove NiCds. Most of the 'consumer-known' shortcomings have proven scientifically false.
They're also EXTREMELY recyclable, with the majority of 'new' cells reusing post-use 'waste'.
I also wasn't aware of how 'tolerant' NiCds were to misuse and abuse either.
Other than their density/weight, they're surprisingly competitive with lithium, and superior in several practical ways. Even in regards to toxicity, post-waste handling is much easier and safer than with Lithiums.

After reading about them I was surprised there haven't been engineering advancements like in Alkaline, NiMH, and Lead Acid technologies.

 

[Space Lynx]

there is a blind belief in science that things will get fixed when they need to be.. one thing is for sure.. the plant earth will still be here when humans aint.. in the grand scheme of things do humans matter that much.. i dont think so..

trog

I agree with this, but I am reminded of Elon Musk saying something about how a self-aware species, capable of so much as we are, how uniquely rare that may be in the Cosmos... and to piss it all a way so we can live or drive in fancier boxes than the other people around us...

How many species were like us in the Cosmos? That were so close to achieving and even capable of interstellar travel, but they destroyed their world (or did not sufficiently plan out its resources long term) before they could do so. It's interesting to think about...

 

[trog100]

I agree with this, but I am reminded of Elon Musk saying something about how a self-aware species, capable of so much as we are, how uniquely rare that may be in the Cosmos... and to piss it all a way so we can live or drive in fancier boxes than the other people around us...

How many species were like us in the Cosmos? That were so close to achieving and even capable of interstellar travel, but they destroyed their world (or did not sufficiently plan out its resources long term) before they could do so. It's interesting to think about...

we are moving more and more towards a virtual reality.. most of the fancy boxes i drive around in are on my computer screen.. most of my interactively with other humans is also on my computer screen.. good or bad i havnt a clue but its happening..

my advice is pretty simple.. enjoy the present dont worry too much about the future there is bugger all you can do about it anyway..

in keeping with the thread topic i am also quite happy with current battery technology.. he he..

trog

 

[Shrek]

one other factor that isnt mentioned is you cant charge lifepo4 below 0 C it damages the cells .. something quite important with an engine starter battery..

Nice catch

Dakota Lithium 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle LiFePO4 Performance
"Avoid charging below 32'F."

As you point out, this is a big deal.

 

[trog100]

Nice catch

Dakota Lithium 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle LiFePO4 Performance
"Avoid charging below 32'F."

As you point out, this is a big deal.

the best lifepo4 batteries have a built in sensor that wont let them take a charge below 0 C.... its a big deal period in colder countries let alone just in cars..

some batteries have built in heater circuits to overcome this problem..

trog

 

[Shrek]

I am still considering a LiFEPO4 for a UPS unit I have, but I had no idea about the 32°F issue; much appreciated.

 

[R-T-B]

Funny you mention that. Recently, in rebuilding some power tool packs I deep dove NiCds. Most of the 'consumer-known' shortcomings have proven scientifically false.
They're also EXTREMELY recyclable, with the majority of 'new' cells reusing post-use 'waste'.
I also wasn't aware of how 'tolerant' NiCds were to misuse and abuse either.
Other than their density/weight, they're surprisingly competitive with lithium, and superior in several practical ways. Even in regards to toxicity, post-waste handling is much easier and safer than with Lithiums.

After reading about them I was surprised there haven't been engineering advancements like in Alkaline, NiMH, and Lead Acid technologies.

So is NiMh, which is honestly one of my faveorite battery techs. Really recyclable things. Probably only bested in reusability of parts by lead-acid, honestly, and it has a lot more drawbacks weight wise, and even toxicity wise.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

one thing that interests me in regards to EV cars is long term sustainability. has anyone (scientist or company) actually sat down and done the math in regards to how much lithium there is (not just lithium but all the natural resources combined for a lithium battery, including the fresh water needed)

for example, short term greed is only way capitalism has ever worked. what happens if we find out that Lithium mine in Nevada only had 50-70 years of lithium in it? what do we do then? I don't know the answer, I am genuinely asking if anyone even knows how much natural resources are in the world/mineable to make x amount of batteries or y amount of years z amount of population.

NIckel is the best kind of battery I read as well, so how much Nickel is left in the world? the list goes on and on.

personally, I think what will happen one day is, we are going to wake up to a news headline that states: "pure sand used to create silicon has run out, we thought we had more sources, but since beach sand can't be used to make silicon we are out"... like how do we know we have enough pure sand (that is required to make silicon used to make the chips in the EV)...

these mining companies probably only do short term projections, I really doubt they dig heavy 50+ years into the future...

(to be clear its not just an answer to one of these questions that matters, its an answer to all of them, in a holistic way that matters) this is what scares me the most. humans sometimes know not what they do... so to speak.

(for the record I still wish hyperloop was getting proper RND funding)

There is a massive lithium shortage already. The problem with lithium is most of it is sourced from what are effectively deserts and refining of lithium requires an enormous amount of water.

World faces shortage of lithium for electric vehicle batteries

Lithium is in hot demand due to rapidly growing production of electric vehicles that use lithium-ion batteries, but there is a global supply shortage of the metal, with western countries racing to bring on new mines to compete with China.

www.reuters.com

Factbox: Lithium: Where does it come from?

Here are the key ways of mining lithium, a highly reactive material that is used in batteries for electric and hybrid vehicles. Demand is likely to double over the next decade as more electric vehicles arrive on the road.

www.reuters.com

Serbia's green activists rally to demand moratorium on lithium mining

Hundreds of Serbian environmental activists on Thursday blocked Belgrade's city centre, demanding a moratorium on lithium mining and exploration, following authorities' decision to revoke permits for Rio Tinto , and its $2.4 billion lithium project in the Balkan country.

www.reuters.com

Allkem sees lithium carbonate prices rising 80% in half year to June

Australian lithium miner Allkem Ltd said on Tuesday lithium carbonate prices for the second half of the fiscal year 2022 were expected to jump 80% from the first half because of booming demand for the metal used in electric vehicle batteries.

www.reuters.com

...a lot more where that came from.

There seems to be this false preconception that we'll only need x amount of lithium extracted from the planet and then we'll just recycle it over and over and over again. There were similar thoughts about plastic but turns out the only sensible thing to do with recycled plastics is...burn it:

The recycling myth: A plastic waste solution littered with failure

Big Oil is touting “advanced recycling” as the solution to the world’s waste crisis. But the technology has yet to live up to its backers’ lofty claims, a Reuters review of 30 projects found.

www.reuters.com

Even recycling wind turbine blades has been mostly a failure...

Surging wind industry faces its own green dilemma: landfills

Wind turbines have become a vital source of global green energy but their makers increasingly face an environmental conundrum of their own: how to recycle them.

www.reuters.com

We're completely failing at this whole environmentalism thing. The economic things too.


There are some companies claiming they can recycle li-ion batteries but, as far as I know, there's no solid data on them actually succeeding. Just because a company claims they can do it doesn't mean they actually are (see plastic recycling as proof of that).

 

[R-T-B]

There is a massive lithium shortage already. The problem with lithium is most of it is sourced from what are effectively deserts and refining of lithium requires an enormous amount of water.

World faces shortage of lithium for electric vehicle batteries

Lithium is in hot demand due to rapidly growing production of electric vehicles that use lithium-ion batteries, but there is a global supply shortage of the metal, with western countries racing to bring on new mines to compete with China.

www.reuters.com

Factbox: Lithium: Where does it come from?

Here are the key ways of mining lithium, a highly reactive material that is used in batteries for electric and hybrid vehicles. Demand is likely to double over the next decade as more electric vehicles arrive on the road.

www.reuters.com

Serbia's green activists rally to demand moratorium on lithium mining

Hundreds of Serbian environmental activists on Thursday blocked Belgrade's city centre, demanding a moratorium on lithium mining and exploration, following authorities' decision to revoke permits for Rio Tinto , and its $2.4 billion lithium project in the Balkan country.

www.reuters.com

Allkem sees lithium carbonate prices rising 80% in half year to June

Australian lithium miner Allkem Ltd said on Tuesday lithium carbonate prices for the second half of the fiscal year 2022 were expected to jump 80% from the first half because of booming demand for the metal used in electric vehicle batteries.

www.reuters.com

...a lot more where that came from.

There seems to be this false preconception that we'll only need x amount of lithium extracted from the planet and then we'll just recycle it over and over and over again. There were similar thoughts about plastic but turns out the only sensible thing to do with recycled plastics is...burn it:

The recycling myth: A plastic waste solution littered with failure

Big Oil is touting “advanced recycling” as the solution to the world’s waste crisis. But the technology has yet to live up to its backers’ lofty claims, a Reuters review of 30 projects found.

www.reuters.com

Even recycling wind turbine blades has been mostly a failure...

Surging wind industry faces its own green dilemma: landfills

Wind turbines have become a vital source of global green energy but their makers increasingly face an environmental conundrum of their own: how to recycle them.

www.reuters.com

We're completely failing at this whole environmentalism thing. The economic things too.


There are some companies claiming they can recycle li-ion batteries but, as far as I know, there's no solid data on them actually succeeding. Just because a company claims they can do it doesn't mean they actually are (see plastic recycling as proof of that).

I don't see how plastic recycling has anything to do with battery recycling successes though. They seem like completely unrelated industries.

Not saying there is a definite answer to Li-Ion recycling because honestly, I don't know. I just know that saying "it'll fail because plastics did" is... illogical.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

we are moving more and more towards a virtual reality.. most of the fancy boxes i drive around in are on my computer screen.. most of my interactively with other humans is also on my computer screen.. good or bad i havnt a clue but its happening..

my advice is pretty simple.. enjoy the present dont worry too much about the future there is bugger all you can do about it anyway..

in keeping with the thread topic i am also quite happy with current battery technology.. he he..

trog

Best way. actually interacting with other people is on the whole a shitty experience.

 

[Space Lynx]

There is a massive lithium shortage already. The problem with lithium is most of it is sourced from what are effectively deserts and refining of lithium requires an enormous amount of water.

World faces shortage of lithium for electric vehicle batteries

Lithium is in hot demand due to rapidly growing production of electric vehicles that use lithium-ion batteries, but there is a global supply shortage of the metal, with western countries racing to bring on new mines to compete with China.

www.reuters.com

Factbox: Lithium: Where does it come from?

Here are the key ways of mining lithium, a highly reactive material that is used in batteries for electric and hybrid vehicles. Demand is likely to double over the next decade as more electric vehicles arrive on the road.

www.reuters.com

Serbia's green activists rally to demand moratorium on lithium mining

Hundreds of Serbian environmental activists on Thursday blocked Belgrade's city centre, demanding a moratorium on lithium mining and exploration, following authorities' decision to revoke permits for Rio Tinto , and its $2.4 billion lithium project in the Balkan country.

www.reuters.com

Allkem sees lithium carbonate prices rising 80% in half year to June

Australian lithium miner Allkem Ltd said on Tuesday lithium carbonate prices for the second half of the fiscal year 2022 were expected to jump 80% from the first half because of booming demand for the metal used in electric vehicle batteries.

www.reuters.com

...a lot more where that came from.

There seems to be this false preconception that we'll only need x amount of lithium extracted from the planet and then we'll just recycle it over and over and over again. There were similar thoughts about plastic but turns out the only sensible thing to do with recycled plastics is...burn it:

The recycling myth: A plastic waste solution littered with failure

Big Oil is touting “advanced recycling” as the solution to the world’s waste crisis. But the technology has yet to live up to its backers’ lofty claims, a Reuters review of 30 projects found.

www.reuters.com

Even recycling wind turbine blades has been mostly a failure...

Surging wind industry faces its own green dilemma: landfills

Wind turbines have become a vital source of global green energy but their makers increasingly face an environmental conundrum of their own: how to recycle them.

www.reuters.com

We're completely failing at this whole environmentalism thing. The economic things too.


There are some companies claiming they can recycle li-ion batteries but, as far as I know, there's no solid data on them actually succeeding. Just because a company claims they can do it doesn't mean they actually are (see plastic recycling as proof of that).

I already mentioned the water thing a couple times previously in this thread

Seems to be a mistake moving forward with EV imo. should be bill gates/warren buffet nuclear all over the place, and hydrogen car centers in every city. you drive up like you are at valvoline instant auto, they drop your almost empty hydrogen tank and put in a new one. and nuclear powers all the hydrogen plants.

either that or hyperloop, seems like the only way forward if you truly care about the future of humanity and the planet. fresh water is already scarce, hell I drink culligan water cause can't trust the city water, it sits at around 450 parts per million sometimes... disgusting...

we are already living in a dystopian semi-failed society imo, just hard to see it cause we have a lot of shiny distracting objects LOL

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I don't see how plastic recycling has anything to do with battery recycling successes though. They seem like completely unrelated industries.

Not saying there is a definite answer to Li-Ion recycling because honestly, I don't know. I just know that saying "it'll fail because plastics did" is... illogical.

Pretty much everything that has a lithium battery is surrounded by plastic.

you drive up like you are at valvoline instant auto, they drop your almost empty hydrogen tank and put in a new one.

The tanks are literally the most expensive part of hydrogen vehicles. There's no reason to change them unless they leak. Nikola (and a global consortium) is already working on higher pressure systems to speed up refilling. The goal is to fill a truck in 5 minutes.

 

[R-T-B]

Pretty much everything that has a lithium battery is surrounded by plastic.

Ok. That still doesn't have anything to do with the actual lithium recycling.

Furthermore, does it have to be surrounded in plastic? I'm betting not.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Plastic "recycling" is a cautionary tale that ideas are often not economically viable or technically feasible. It is an example of why a business saying they can recycle something doesn't mean the problem is actually solved.

It's really quite simple: if you're not recycling close to 100% of your inputs, then there is still a whole lot of waste being generated by the industry, no matter what it is.

 

[Shrek]

The recycling myth
Is Plastic Recycling A Lie? Oil Companies Touted Recycling To Sell More Plastic : NPR

 

[Space Lynx]

The recycling myth
Is Plastic Recycling A Lie? Oil Companies Touted Recycling To Sell More Plastic : NPR

I just read that, holy shit. I know my local news did an investigation one time last year trying to trace the source of recycling, and the company (even though they are paid with our tax payer dollars) would not answer their questions nor let them see inside their facility where the plastic goes. lol... its sad, all of it is. we fucked up as a species in so many ways and in so many areas.

We really need a truly genuine honest person to lead us to a better future, and that person is not one of the elites or one of the rich. It's exactly as Plato/Socrates predicted, it needs to be a philosopher who takes no income and sleeps on the white house lawn and gives up all material possessions, outside of what is required to be the leader of the free world.

 

[Operandi]

Lithium supply in relation to EVs has been researched and there definitely isn't enough to power everything with lithium based batteries past a few decades. Thats why we need to eventually move off of it at some point to different battery chemistry or hydrogen. Li-ion is the best we got now though for the foreseeable future so its full steam ahead.

That said batteries that no longer cut it for EVs can be used for stationary power banks. And you can recycle the batteries to get the raw material back, its just not easy and up till this point the drive to do it hasn't been strong enough. That and it will be a lot easier of a process to streamline the recycling process when you are dealing large scale packs of all the same cell type rather than all the random puny little smartphone, laptop batteries which is what most of the Li-ion batteries consisted of till nowish.

I just read that, holy shit. I know my local news did an investigation one time last year trying to trace the source of recycling, and the company (even though they are paid with our tax payer dollars) would not answer their questions nor let them see inside their facility where the plastic goes. lol... its sad, all of it is. we fucked up as a species in so many ways and in so many areas.

Its not really a myth but it was definitely scam to push to onerous of responsibility to do the "recycling" onto the consumer rather than the industry actually producing the stuff. The short version of plastic recycling is plastics with "1" and "2" on them are easily recyclable but everything else is pretty up in the air as to what actually happens to it, at least in NA I think.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Batteries for EV's can be 1/4 of the cost of the car, sometimes more so they bloody well should be return exchange when they need replacing as i think replacement batteries are a few grand at least.

 

[eidairaman1]

What boggles my mind even more than Li-ion technology being behind the requirements of our age is that governments are still pushing it to take over internal combustion engines. I mean, only electric cars in the UK from 2030? I can't see that happen on Li-ion. Sorry, green-minded people, but I really can't. I live in an apartment with no infrastructure to charge a car at home, and I don't have hours to waste at a station. Politicians of our times seem to have no connection to reality at all.

It's all about control and making the working class poor, so there is only scumbag politicians and "elites" and poor people.

Ever watch Demolition Man, that along side Terminator and Wall E are warnings.

Batteries for EV's can be 1/4 of the cost of the car, sometimes more so they bloody well should be return exchange when they need replacing as i think replacement batteries are a few grand at least.