Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[FordGT90Concept]

We would be burning hydrogen though right? So the end product that is ejected from the car is no longer hydrogen? Or is my thinking incorrect?

They're talking the inevitable leaks. If hydrogen is properly combined with oxygen, the result is water. If hydrogen escapes and interacts with oxygen in the wild, it can form hydroxide which is a greenhouse gas.

BEVs make sense for urban environments, HFCEV makes sense for rural vehicles. I still don't have much faith in Toyota's hydrogen reciprocating engine.

 

[Shrek]

Actually, water is a greenhouse gas, but one that rains out.

 

[Bomby569]

Interesting but that's from a 2006 paper and storage may have come some way since then. Regardless, the paper estimates the % impact on greenhouse warming is minimal in comparison to fossil fuel. 6% with 10% leakage is still only 6%.

The focus i think it's just to alert that we just got to do things right, no corner cutting. The worst thing i think is when people label things as "green" and then they are used lightly because of the label. It's green if.

We all know how things work, if with leakeage it gives 10% profit, and with no leakeage (because you need to implement measure x or y) gives 5% profit...

Scientists say we need to start capturing carbon. Just stopping emissions isn't enough anymore. So any solution that keeps pilling on the problem should be carefully implemented.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Actually, water is a greenhouse gas, but one that rains out.

Fair, but there's also no reason why HFCEVs can't have tanks so the water never returns (unless leaked) back to the environment. When you fill up with hydrogen, it also sucks out the water to electrolyze.

We all know how things work, if with leakeage it gives 10% profit, and with no leakeage (because you need to implement measure x or y) gives 5% profit...

Considering how expensive hydrogen is compared to fossil fuels (about 2.5x even at these inflated gas prices), it makes a compelling market reason to prevent and rapidly fix any leaks.

 

[Shrek]

Fair, but there's also no reason why HFCEVs can't have tanks so the water never returns (unless leaked) back to the environment.

It was a joke, although water vapor is actually the strongest green-house gas; it really will rain out.

Greenhouse gas - Wikipedia
"Water vapor accounts for the largest percentage of the greenhouse effect"

 

[Bomby569]

Considering how expensive hydrogen is compared to fossil fuels (about 2.5x even at these inflated gas prices), it makes a compelling market reason to prevent and rapidly fix any leaks.

Hydrogen is not expensive in itself, i mean it's more expensive then burning coal or oil for sure, but that's a very low bar. Cost also increase if (as we all hope) it uses renewable sources, that are always a bit more expensive.

But i bet that a cargo ship at sea will probably live with a small leak, when parking one of those monsters literally costs millions a day in lost revenue.
Or a car manufacturer may not care in the least what it costs a few leaks for the customers, they aren't the ones paying, and they do have a record of lying and misleading data for profit.
etc
etc
etc

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Hydrogen is not expensive in itself, i mean it's more expensive then burning coal or oil for sure, but that's a very low bar. Cost also increase if (as we all hope) it uses renewable sources, that are always a bit more expensive.

Markets only respond to price pressures. As long as hydrogen remains more expensive than the alternatives, it won't be used en masse. The cheapest way to produce green hydrogen in massive volumes is going to be performing thermolysis in close proximity to a fission or fusion reactor:

High-temperature electrolysis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

INL dabbled back in 2008:

Steam Heat: Researchers Gear Up For Full-scale Hydrogen Plant

Hydrogen has many industrial uses and may one day replace fossil fuels such as gasoline to power vehicles without emitting carbon dioxide. But finding an environmentally friendly way to produce hydrogen in large quantities is still a big challenge. At Idaho National Laboratory, a team of...

www.sciencedaily.com

I wonder if this was just a proposal because I can't find any evidence that it actually happened.

In 2020, INL is involved in the new projects:

Idaho laboratory joins national research programs for making ‘green’ hydrogen

Idaho National Laboratory is a member of two new DOE research consortia charged with exploring new methods and technologies for hydrogen production.

inl.gov

The end goal is to be able to produce hydrogen at a generalized cost of $2 per kilogram. Today, carbon-free hydrogen from electrolysis costs about $5 to $6/kg to make assuming electricity prices of $0.05/kWh to $0.07/kWh.

A step closer to clean hydrogen - INL

Clean hydrogen research will play a vital role to help decarbonize the steel, agriculture, petroleum refining industries.

inl.gov

https://www.bloomenergy.com/news/bloom-energy-and-idaho-national-laboratory-to-generate-hydrogen-powered-by-nuclear-energy/

Pretty sure it's possible to design a molten uranium fission reactor (2500C) that consumes a lot of water, breaks water down into its respective parts, and produces an enormous amount of electricity in the process of cooling the resulting gases. It'd be a hell of an undertaking (to safely contain the molten uranium and prohibit gas explosions), not unlike ITER. If the theory works out, it would raise nuclear reactor efficiency above 40% it's at now because you're getting two energy products from the heat instead of one.

But i bet that a cargo ship at sea will probably live with a small leak, when parking one of those monsters literally costs millions a day in lost revenue.

The idea is to produce hydrogen where it is needed. If it's transported by any kind of vehicle that isn't using it as fuel, that's a systematic inefficiency that's best removed.

Or a car manufacturer may not care in the least what it costs a few leaks for the customers, they aren't the ones paying, and they do have a record of lying and misleading data for profit.

Never heard of regulations and product recalls?

 

[ARF]

Does anyone here own and drive Toyota Mirai?

2022 Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle | Innovation is Power

Hydrogen is not expensive in itself, i mean it's more expensive then burning coal or oil for sure, but that's a very low bar. Cost also increase if (as we all hope) it uses renewable sources, that are always a bit more expensive.

Is this actually true? I mean do you include the cost of climate change in the burning coal or oil equation?

 

[Mussels]

Considering unlreaded petrol is $2.20 a liter here in Au right now, i get the feeling our cost efficiency estimates are about to change in favour of alternative tech really suddenly


I cant believe americans are complaining when their fuel is so much cheaper than everywhere else

 

[defaultluser]

Does anyone here own and drive Toyota Mirai?

2022 Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle | Innovation is Power



Is this actually true? I mean do you include the cost of climate change in the burning coal or oil equation?

no, because were not idiots who yearn to pay two times the cost of gasoline (for blue hydrogen), or three time that for the green stuff

Living With A Toyota Mirai Didn’t Go As Expected…Here’s What Happened: Video

The new Toyota Mirai isn't just a better looking car than the before, but it can drive farther. What is it like to actually live with one, though? Well, it's not without some hiccups.

tflcar.com

I just filled my car at a normal gas pump for $40 (same range as Mirai gets)

I could buy a KIA Nero for half that price of this hydrogen thingy, and although I get 100 miles less range, I don't have to have range anxiety just trying t find h2 pumps in whatever neighborhood I'm at (THERE ARE WAY MORE FAST CHARGERS IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA THAN THERE ARE h2 PUMPS, and outside CA, you're screwed.)

You can get the 250mi Nero for half the price of the H2 vehicle, and then spend way less money filling it up than even my gas car.

 

[dgianstefani]

no, because were not idiots who yearn to pay two times the cost of gasoline (for blue hydrogen), or three time that for the green stuff

Living With A Toyota Mirai Didn’t Go As Expected…Here’s What Happened: Video

The new Toyota Mirai isn't just a better looking car than the before, but it can drive farther. What is it like to actually live with one, though? Well, it's not without some hiccups.

tflcar.com

I just filled my car at a normal gas pump for $40 (same range as Mirai gets)

I could buy a KIA Nero for half that price of this hydrogen thingy, and although I get 100 miles less range, I don't have to have range anxiety just trying t find h2 pumps in whatever neighborhood I'm at (THERE ARE WAY MORE FAST CHARGERS IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA THAN THERE ARE h2 PUMPS, and outside CA, you're screwed.)

You can get the 250mi Nero for half the price of the H2 vehicle, and then spend way less money filling it up than even my gas car.

It's called economy of scale. Gasoline is cheaper because it's 99% of the market.

 

[defaultluser]

It's called economy of scale. Gasoline is cheaper because it's 99% of the market.

And your point is? we already make H2 at massive scale using methane (so, the delivery costs are all that's adding price at the pump.)

The big problem H2 pumps have is that requires massively more pressure than Gasoline (so there will always be a higher cost of infrastructure, even after you start mass-producing things)

The cost of adding electric fast chargers is way less than the cost of adding in a usable amount of H2 stations, plus delivery network to every state in the union. You also save a whole lot more money refueling that pure electric.

 

[dgianstefani]

And your point is? we already make H2 at massive scale using methane (so, the delivery costs are all that's adding price at the pump.)

The big problem H2 pumps have is that requires more pressure than Gasoline (so there will always be a higher cost of infrastructure, even after you start mass-producing things)

The cost of adding electric fast chargers is way less than the cost of adding in a usable amount of H2 stations, plus delivery network to every state in the union. You also save a whole lot more money refueling that pure electric.

The point is obvious, if more people get hydrogen cars, infrastructure will become more widespread and logistics will be cheaper.

 

[defaultluser]

The point is obvious, if more people get hydrogen cars, infrastructure will become more widespread and logistics will be cheaper.

Did you miss the part where it costs twice the amount to refuel with H2 versus gas? Also, at between 10-15 per fill-up for every Tesla mdel in rtheir entire catalog, it makes the Mirai's $90 fill-up cost absolutely exorbitant.

Twice the price of a Nero, and six times more per fill-up id the reason why H2 has failed, not because of missing mass-production (mass-production in CA would only get h2 down tb a 5x premium, because you still need to put methane through an expensive process of steam reforming / or water electrolysis to create it.,)

Fast chargers still cost several times less than H2 to build and then refuel, even though that entire infrastructure is brand-new (so it also still has to be paid-off, just like the H2 pumps + delivery infrastructure ) - that is te reason why H2 cars have died well before they could see anything mass-produce.

 

[Shrek]

If you have methane, why would you not use that directly.

 

[dgianstefani]

Did you miss the part where it costs twice the amount to refuel with H2 versus gas? Also, at between 10-15 per fill-up for every Tesla mdel in rtheir entire catalog, it makes the Mirai's $90 fill-up cost absolutely exorbitant.

Twice the price of a Nero, and six times more per fill-up (mass-production in CA would only get h2 down tb a 5x premium, because you still need to put methane through an expensive process of steam reforming / or water electrolysis to create it.,)

Wow that's cool, wonder what the price would be like if hydrogen received the same subsidies and incentives as oil?

 

[defaultluser]

Wow that's cool, wonder what the price would be like if hydrogen received the same subsidies and incentives as oil?

cause we have a much more efficient solution than ungodly overpriced Electrolysis plus H2 storage


Instead of just pointing fingers, how abut you read some H2 qnaysis papers.

 

[dgianstefani]

cause we have a much more efficient solution than ungodly overpriced Electrolysis plus H2 storage


Instead of just pointing fingers, how abut you read some H2 qnaysis papers.

Yes the manufacture of limited lifetime, rare earth dependant, potentially explosive batteries, with less than half the range is so much more efficient than retrofitting a hydrogen tank to mostly existing automobile technology.

 

[defaultluser]

Yes the manufacture of limited lifetime, rare earth dependant, potentially explosive batteries, with less than half the range is so much more efficient than retrofitting a hydrogen tank to mostly existing automobile technology.

Most of the industry has transition tom lithium iron phosphate batteries (no explode), and the lifetime of everything h2 touches is just as in need of replacement after the same rough time-frame as a EV battery.

Must replace every 150k miles on Mirai : multiple fuel tanks, plus fuel cell stack plus the battery. Must replace every 150k miles on a BEV: the battery.

And we can recycle those batteries.:

The Truth About Lithium Ion Battery Recycling

There is a right way of approaching lithium ion battery recycling... and a wrong way. In this guide, we'll teach you how to do it the right way.

greencitizen.com

 

[DOA]

Does anyone here own and drive Toyota Mirai?

2022 Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle | Innovation is Power



Is this actually true? I mean do you include the cost of climate change in the burning coal or oil equation?

I don't but a neighbor has one. He has a 3 year lease, on last year.

He now hates the car. While fuel is free with the lease, it's $12 - $16 USD if he kept the car. He has had a loaner Camry twice due to no fuel available.

He has had no mechanical problems, but some unexpected driving problems. This is anecdotal, I understand, but here's the story: He drives regularly from SF to LA, never a problem in his Camry. His second trip in the Mirai was his last, he takes wife's Prius now. The trip down to LA went normally, stop at Harris Ranch for fuel and again in LA. On the return he left about 7 PM on a hot September night with an almost full tank. Traffic was light and moving fast (85 - 90 mph) and he was headed into some stong Santa Anna winds. He had encountered this before in the Camry and the Mirai handled well enough. But it started slowing before he got to the top of the Grapevine, the AC, fast speed, uphill climb and head winds conspired to use all the battery and he was on fuel cell power alone. He barely held 75 mph and was debating turning around, thinking something was wrong with the car. Soon after he crested the summit and used less power things returned to normal and he was back at 80 mph. He ran out of fuel before Harris Ranch and had to be flat bed trucked there. There was another Mirai taking the station since only one fuel station was working and it was slow. He made it home safely, but it was a LONG trip.

I have a BEV so we used to talk fairly often to compare. He has stopped talking cars. Some of his discontent is he cannot get green hydrogen, only 30% green while I fill with my rooftop solar. He has to find H2 and go fill up, I just plug my car in at home. Yes, this requires my car being home during peak solar hours, but working from home makes that easy.

FCVs were given up on quickly as most people can see that using the electricity directly will be much better than losing 50% to the hydrogen cycle.

Also there is time savings of home charging, convenience of "filling up" almost anywhere (if the lights are on, you can charge). FCVs can have more range, but present cars do not. FCVs can have performance, but again present offerings do not.

 

[Mussels]

If you have methane, why would you not use that directly.

accidents become rather explosive

as stated above, battery tech might not be more powerful or efficient yet, but they HAVE drastically improved the safety and recyclability at least

 

[Shrek]

I was answering to

Twice the price of a Nero, and six times more per fill-up id the reason why H2 has failed, not because of missing mass-production (mass-production in CA would only get h2 down tb a 5x premium, because you still need to put methane through an expensive process of steam reforming / or water electrolysis to create it.,)

and asking about getting hydrogen from methane: 'If you have methane, why would you not use that directly.'

 

[Sybaris_Caesar]

I thought the revival of this thread meant you guys were talking about the new Hyundai H2 car. Boring!

 

[defaultluser]

I was answering to



and asking about getting hydrogen from methane: 'If you have methane, why would you not use that directly.'

Well yes, I already mentioned methane buses earlier in the thread making the entire concept of blue hydrogen completely pointless. The only reason I have to keep repeating things like this is because nobody actually cares to engage their brains

Once you make inroads with buses (been aroung for over 30 years in certain cities), the transition to semis isn't that difficult.

114SD Natural Gas | Freightliner Trucks

Powered by the spark-ignited, dedicated natural gas Cummins Westport ISL G 8.9 liter engine, the Freightliner 114SD NG is designed for efficiency.

freightliner.com

Cummins Brings 15L Natural Gas Engine to North America

Find out how bringing the Cummins 15-liter natural gas engine for heavy-duty trucks to the North American market plays into the company’s zero emissions strategy.

www.truckinginfo.com

And once you get CNG firmly-established (already a lot cleaner than diesel), you can start to add plug-in-hybrid or overhead centenary (on mayor highways, see Trolleybus system) to the mix.

 

[Bomby569]

With the recent problems of heatwaves and the war, i wonder if people will finally start to take the transition seriously. More money needs to go to alternative fuel sources for vehicles and fast.

Regarding the trolleybus topic, I was watching a video, and it's insane how many cities had them (in Europe, Asia and North America), and just destroyed everything to go with traditional buses. Insane. I guess much of the complaints were they couldn't get around an obstacle, but we now have trolleys with small batteries (something very small) to give them a bit of autonomy to go around obstacules, and they are much cheaper to acquire, run and maintain than a fleet of electric buses and don't use as much precious resources by not using those massive batteries