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Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

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Hear that bouncy suspension. Dude slams on his breaks and nothing happens, just continues to "bounce" until he hits the building. Its like 4500lbs of batteries and weight in that form factor is hard to make a suspension for or something.
Has nothing to do with suspension. Tesla is heavy as fuck. More mass takes more time to stop. Most of the time tires were on the ground, meaning suspension worked fine. Bakes seemingly worked fine as well, but ABS may not have. Besides driver being an idiot, it seems that tires were the weakest link there.
 
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More mass also means more friction the tires can deliver
 
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More mass also means more friction the tires can deliver
Eh.... That's more than outweighted by more inertia and it depends of where that mass actually is. In moving body, center of mass is ever changing. Not to mention that wheels have some centrifugal force too. Also if we take into account aerodynamics (since it seems that dude was doing more than 80 mph) most cars at higher speeds have more lift than downforce, therefore they become "lighter" the faster they go. It's complicated, but no, heavier cars aren't supposed to handle better. You want to have car as light as possible with biggest contact patch and with as much downforce as you can for maximum grip.
 
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Has nothing to do with suspension. Tesla is heavy as fuck. More mass takes more time to stop. Most of the time tires were on the ground, meaning suspension worked fine. Bakes seemingly worked fine as well, but ABS may not have. Besides driver being an idiot, it seems that tires were the weakest link there.

Why does the squealing come "in-and-out"? Listen carefully, if the tires were in full contact on the ground, you'd hear a singular squeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllll.

Suspension is very important to ensuring those wheels in fact have "Weight" on them. If there's no "weight" on a tire, it has no traction. Traction = weight * Mu after all, in physics, the less weight, the less traction. That's why downforce airfoils exist on fancy cars, so that at these speeds the "weight" goes higher and provides more traction.

In short, what transpired in that video exceeds the expectations of Tesla engineers and the driver. This is why high-speed driving should only be done on the track.

Your explanation is an interesting counter-point and I didn't consider that. Aerodynamics is certainly a thing and you're right that the car seems to be missing a spoiler. In either case, my point is that this is a zero-to-sixty car in 4-seconds without the proper design elements to actually handle that speed.

I'm still leaning towards my suspension theory, but I'll have to more carefully think about your airfoil / downforce theory as well. Either way, I agree it should be done at a track.

-------

In either case, listen carefully when the car goes over this stormdrain right here.

1654006080944.png


This is why I think its a suspension issue. The very **second** the car runs over that minor bump, the whole thing loses control. (Listen to the audio. The car is bouncing). Fortunately, they didn't need to turn the car anywhere, but the car no longer has traction with the ground, so even if they slammed on the brakes, nothing would happen. But your theory that this is an air-bubble (or similar) forming under the car also sounds legitimate, especially since the tail-end of that car is also an obviously crap shape.

So instead of "bouncing on the springs" (my theory), the car could be "bouncing on an air-bubble" (in your theory??)

More mass also means more friction the tires can deliver

Not if the car is "bouncing". When the car is on the "upswing" of a bounce, there's literally zero traction in the wheels.

That's why suspension systems are incredibly important, you need to minimize bouncing. The heavier the car, the more complicated it is to suspend correctly and apply consistent force to the wheels. Really, listen again. The driver almost certainly is "holding the brakes" very strongly throughout this clip, why would the brakes be "squeee-squeee-squeee-squeeee", instead of "squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" ??

Answer: the car is bouncing. Now whether that's a suspension issue or an airfoil issue, well that's another story that goes beyond my personal abilities to diagnose. But the car is definitely bouncing, and therefore losing traction in a periodic fashion.

I'm no car engineer, but a lot of serious racers keep Unsprung Mass / design in mind with their cars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass , among many other suspension issues that they optimize. All that acceleration and speed, without a good suspension system and rear spoiler, is just a danger to everybody.

IMO: the "fun" cars are the ones that are lightweight and easier to drive at higher speeds. "Hot Hatches" for example. And of course, on a track where little bumps / storm-drains don't exist to throw you off course. Heavier-and-heavier cars have their own dangers, due to the shear mass involved that makes suspension and other issues harder (even if you do have an air-foil, its "combating more weight", and airfoils will have less of an effect)
 
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In that video the only problem was thr lack of downforce on the rear. I like Teslas but they aren't designed for the speeds they can achieve, it's still a basic car chassis for a normal old school sedan. Designing and accounting for that takes a lot of know how that Tesla doesn't have.
 
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Back on topic, Germany wants to convert their steel industry to hydrogen...and they're trying to source it from Australia. Kind of bizarre:

Nice. I know that electrolyser and all that are big news. The biggest one in Europe seems to be in Denmark right now, but that's not too far from Germany.


10 MW is kinda small all else considered though. I'd expect that green-hydrogen electrolysers will be spinning up more and more now that the technology has been proven.
 
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Nice. I know that electrolyser and all that are big news. The biggest one in Europe seems to be in Denmark right now, but that's not too far from Germany.


10 MW is kinda small all else considered though. I'd expect that green-hydrogen electrolysers will be spinning up more and more now that the technology has been proven.


i think Shell is very bad with numbers, or very good with self promoting lies
 
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i think Shell is very bad with numbers, or very good with self promoting lies

The 10MW shell station is the largest in Europe right now, but almost everybody is investing into bigger plants.

This is a very new technology. Rapid progress (10MW, 100MW, and then 500MW) is to be expected in times like this. I don't expect Shell's 10MW plan to remain the biggest for very long. Too many competitors.

Its like these new "supercomputers" that keep coming out, they're bigger and bigger each year.
 
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Why does the squealing come "in-and-out"? Listen carefully, if the tires were in full contact on the ground, you'd hear a singular squeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllll.
How I am supposed to judge from potato video? Might be just poor ABS, might be slightly turned steering wheel before jump, thus once car landed front tires lost grip.


Suspension is very important to ensuring those wheels in fact have "Weight" on them. If there's no "weight" on a tire, it has no traction. Traction = weight * Mu after all, in physics, the less weight, the less traction. That's why downforce airfoils exist on fancy cars, so that at these speeds the "weight" goes higher and provides more traction.
And I will say that suspension is not important for that. It's all about center of mass or weight distribution. Suspension at best just reduces center of mass swings and car instability. Suspension may determine wheel alignment, but on road legal cars it's usually a non factor, since they are often tuned to not have anything special, only straight wheel. No bizarre camber, toe, caster or etc.

Either way, you are overthinking Tesla. There's nothing wrong with it, twat went too fast, realized that tires don't have infinite grip and found out that the hard way. This shit happens all the damn time with various cars and drivers like him. The only special thing here is that he picked a car with way too much power, car that has unusually low center of mass and car that is also unusually heavy.
 

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Hydrogen cars, or things related to hydrogen. No more Tesla talk.

Stay on topic, please.

Thank you.
 
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Hydrogen cars, or things related to hydrogen. No more Tesla talk.

Stay on topic, please.

Thank you.

While I agree with you, the issue might be

"Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?" because electric cars are better.

and no, I don't mean that justifies discussing some kid crashing a Tesla

If this post is inappropriate, I am happy to delete it (I'm not here to rack up points)
 
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Hi,
Maybe they didn't like a lot of hydrogen bombs rolling around :eek:
 
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"Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?" because electric cars are better.

I don't think that's the situation.

EVs bootstrapped themselves by taking 18650 laptop cells, and wiring them up together until they could run a car. Newer EV developments finally changed the shape of the battery to something more useful to a car (18650 is just a little bit larger than AA Alkaline cells... really designed for laptops). But building years upon laptop-manufacturer expertise is the secret of EVs and their early advances.

Hydrogen never really existed until... well... last year. Hydrogen is a newer tech by any measurement. There's no incremental step, no way to make a small-scale proof of concept (like buying 18650 laptop cells). Its all or nothing. We're finally reaching the point where this all-or-nothing approach is showing gains, and suddenly huge numbers of countries are interested. (There was Toyota Mirai and a few others, but they were running on non-green Hydrogen created from natural gas. Today, we're getting real electrolysers and real "green" hydrogen. Albeit at small "10MW" scales for now but bigger and bigger plants are under construction right now)

Hi,
Maybe they didn't like a lot of hydrogen bombs rolling around :eek:

H2 Bombs are fusion bombs, and operate on a different principle than combustion.

The only way a Hydrogen-bomb goes nuclear is if you compress the hydrogen with a plutonium bomb. And the only way you can ignite a plutonium bomb is with a uranium bomb. If you have a compressed cylinder of hydrogen, surrounded in plutonium, surrounded in uranium... I think there's more worries than the explosion risk factor there...

I've brought up the explosivity of Li-Ion before. People don't seem to mind. I know that gets a bit more off topic, but its clear that people are willing to overlook the explosion risks of other technologies. Now I'm not comfortable with liquid-hydrogen (which is being experimented with in fact!!), because liquid-hydrogen is beginning to look a bit too much like a rocket-engine too me, and we all know how explosive those things are.

But compressed H2 gas doesn't seem to be too much more dangerous than other, comparable, car technologies. (Indeed, I'd argue that Li-ion is more dangerous). Feel free to PM me if you want to see some fiery Li-ion explosions or other statistics, since that stuff is off topic for sure.
 
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They even know EVs are not the way.

There is Plenty of coverage on this topic.
 

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They would if battery chemistry were improved. But so long as batteries fail to perform any better than they are, then yes EV's are very much less than adequate.

Yeah I test drove a 2016 Nissan Leaf in October of last year, the dealer said the battery on it was in amazing shape. Like most dealers, he was full of shit and then some. During the test drive, I kid you fucking not, every 2-3 minutes driving the battery indicator would lose 1% of charge, to be fair it was super cold that morning and the heat was on, and the electric heated seats were on, and so on.... but still... fucking pathetic. I'm glad I am sticking with the good old trustworthy Toyota Corolla gas only variant. It will last me 20 years I bet, maybe more, as I intend to take care of it.
 
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Just doing a quick look around I found some definite negatives for using hydrogen as fuel:
  • Investment is Required. ...
  • Cost of Raw Materials. ...
  • Regulatory Issues. ...
  • Overall Cost. ...
  • Hydrogen Storage. ...
  • Infrastructure. ...
  • Highly Flammable.
  • There's virtually no pure hydrogen on Earth because it's so reactive. Most hydrogen is made from methane [natural gas] in a process that produces carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.
The reason we are still using fossil fuels to power our cars is because it's a cheaper and simpler means of energy production. One day when we are running out of cheap fossil fuels that will change. Hopefully at that time Fusion will be cheap enough and simple to use and practical for transportation.
Add another point - refueling safety.
It's filling up at a high pressure. So no chance, but there will be accidents when nozzle will be disintegrating. Even if it won't flame up, you will still have too much of hydrogen spelt on you. Lidenfrost effect will help you from little amounts, but not when you will be entirely drowned into hydrogen bubble.
 
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They even know EVs are not the way.

There is Plenty of coverage on this topic.


Cause, you know, Toyota can totally be trusted with not making mistakes with their other supercar?

Until they release a desirable, on-tine LFA revision , I'm not touching this with q ten foot pole (supposed o be 2025, but you know how these delays go?)
 

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Cause, you know, Toyota can totally be trusted with not making mistakes with their other supercar?

Until they release a desirable, on-tine LFA revision , I'm not touching this with q ten foot pole (supposed o be 2025, but you know how these delays go?)

I'm of the school of thought that any progress is good progress. I think Toyota is going to do very well in the next few decades. I think they were smart for waiting for solid state battery tech before going all in on EV as well.
 
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I'm of the school of thought that any progress is good progress. I think Toyota is going to do very well in the next few decades. I think they were smart for waiting for solid state battery tech before going all in on EV as well.


And meanwhile, how many decades behind will Toyota's full EV manufacturing be by the time they hit solid-state? Nobody is even close, fyi.,

And that pure H2 engine will never end-up shipping in anything; When CNG is so much easier oi acquire ( and cheaper, given the fact that it's the soyrce of all h2 produced!), it will have t compete wiith existing bus infrastructure!


And Green H2 will be Doa at every pump you sell it at. ( be prepared to pay twice qas much as Blue H2 n)
 
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A different look into hydrogen:

British scientists have recently reviewed current understanding of the fate and behaviour of hydrogen in the atmosphere and characterised its major sources and sinks. They show that, contrary to most expectations, hydrogen is an indirect greenhouse gas with a potential global warming effect. They then quantified the global warming potential of hydrogen in comparison to CO2 and the global warming consequences of replacing the current fossil fuel-based economy with one based on hydrogen. The results suggest that because hydrogen reacts in the atmosphere with tropospheric OH radicals, the emission of hydrogen into the atmosphere would disrupt the distribution of methane and ozone, the second and third most important greenhouse gasses. Emissions of hydrogen lead to increased burdens of methane and ozone and hence to an increase in global warming. Therefore, hydrogen can be considered as an indirect greenhouse gas with the potential to increase global warming. The scientists have estimated that the potential effects on climate from hydrogen-based energy systems would be much lower than those from fossil fuel-based energy systems. However, such impacts will depend on the rate of hydrogen leakage during its synthesis, storage and use. The researchers have calculated that a global hydrogen economy with a leakage rate of 1% of the produced hydrogen would produce a climate impact of 0.6% of the fossil fuel system it replaces. If the leakage rate was 10%, then the climate impact would be 6% of that of the fossil fuel system.
 

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We would be burning hydrogen though right? So the end product that is ejected from the car is no longer hydrogen? Or is my thinking incorrect?

Interesting but that's from a 2006 paper and storage may have come some way since then. Regardless, the paper estimates the % impact on greenhouse warming is minimal in comparison to fossil fuel. 6% with 10% leakage is still only 6%.

Makes sense, more research should be done to clarify some stuff though before we go all in on something.


SOME MAJOR cool news though: https://www.techspot.com/news/94804-toyota-shows-off-portable-swappable-hydrogen-cartridges.html

This is really cool news out of Toyota, and it's kind of been mentioned in this thread a few times I believe, you would pull up to a "gas station" and just hot swap your hydrogen canister, pay, and away you go. Imagine giving your car 400 miles of range with only a 15 second hot swap and scan your credit card to pay for it, and you are off driving again... and imagine the hydrogen stations everywhere... the future could be really awesome my friends.

Small nuclear power plants like the one Bill Gates is doing in Wyoming, combined with hydrogen making facilities, combined with autopilot hydrogen semi-trucks that will deliver all over the country...

Will humans be capable of so much? Or will I still keep saying "yet so little" a decade from now.

Probably the latter, but one can still dream.
 
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