Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[ARF]

Population density rise is the elephant in the room. You can't simply expect to remain stable indefinitely with finite amounts of resources to share plus the rich and powerful aren't so great at that.

Countries such as the Russian Federation, Canada, and whole continents like Africa or Australia are almost empty, there are no people living there to claim too high density. It is extremely low population density in large parts of the globe.

It is propaganda by the world "ellites" which don't like the human race, anyways, and want it to disappear.

There is enough for everyone need, but not enough for everyone greed..

 

[Bomby569]

Countries such as the Russian Federation, Canada, and whole continents like Africa or Australia are almost empty, there are no people living there to claim too high density. It is extremely low population density in large parts of the globe.

It is propaganda by the world "ellites" which don't like the human race, anyways, and want it to disappear.

There is enough for everyone need, but not enough for everyone greed..

There is a reason all those places you mentioned aren't more populated. It really isn't that difficult to understand it. I guess you forgot Antarctica

 

[ARF]

There is a reason all those places you mentioned aren't more populated. It really isn't that difficult to understand it. I guess you forgot Antarctica

Many reasons, actually. Wars, relatively recent development as is Canada or Australia, etc...

 

[Bomby569]

Many reasons, actually. Wars, relatively recent development as is Canada or Australia, etc...

Both Canada and Australia are very big, but very small if you consider the land suitable for living. And yes people can live on Antarctica and even on the Moon or Mars but what cost, Canada energy consumption per capita is insane.

 

[ARF]

Both Canada and Australia are very big, but very small if you consider the land suitable for living Canada energy consumption per capita is insane.

Canada is fine - its position is almost as Europe's.
And yes, it is easier and more energy efficient to warm large apartment buildings than individual disperse houses.

 

[InVasMani]

No mention of Chernobyl it's even got buildings...

 

[ARF]

BMW and Toyota just gave hydrogen cars a big vote of confidence
The two automakers will work together to jointly develop hydrogen fuel-cell-powered cars that we could see as early as 2025.
BMW and Toyota just gave hydrogen cars a big vote of confidence (inputmag.com)
Google News - Search

 

[Bomby569]

it's a bit off topic, but come on Toyota. This was the company that pioneered with the Prius, then decided to do nothing with it, then bet on hydrogen, and then decided to end that and leave their customers holding the baby, then came back to electric only to fail in the most spectacular of ways and again to bad for the idiots that bought them, and now his back on hydrogen, one has to wonder what will be the result

back on topic, no batteries and all the bad it does and the problems sourcing materials, more range, faster charging, you'd actually think this is a no brainer.

 

[KLiKzg]

i can't see the video now but the problem is energy density, it's still far away from replacing Lithium. But there are other promising replacements for lithium.

No, it is not. Right now CaTL are some 5y back where LiIon was or same as worst batteries on the market.
That is NOT FAR, considering that they are abundant in source & does not go in flames & is considering now a "heavy industry & domestic" market.

There is also some other technology, which will put it in the car with energy density. But before it is outside, I cannot write about it, 'cause of NDA in the company.

its way too complex to get solid-state lithium batteries working, and we've already been working on the problem for at least two decades:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/adma.200502604

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359645412007811

Benchmarking the performance of all-solid-state lithium batteries - Nature Energy

Considering the interdependence of performance measures and the lack of a basic reference system for all-solid-state batteries, Jürgen Janek and co-workers analyse literature performance data for major types of all-solid-state batteries and benchmark them against minimalistic reference cells.

www.nature.com

And we still haven't found a viable solution amongst all those attempts!

And, more pressing, the fact that Lithium Iron Phosphate has most of the benefits of solid state (cheaper, wont self-ignite, no cobalt, and have a much longer lifetime), all while already being available on Tesla model 3, and Ford Lightning!

Even if Solid State were suddenly solved tomorrow, you have to almost double the capacity of iron phosphate to make any inroads - the entire cheap EV industry in China has already chosen iron.

Your bolded text is simply NOT TRUE.

it's a bit off topic, but come on Toyota. This was the company that pioneered with the Prius, then decided to do nothing with it, then bet on hydrogen, and then decided to end that and leave their customers holding the baby, then came back to electric only to fail in the most spectacular of ways and again to bad for the idiots that bought them, and now his back on hydrogen, one has to wonder what will be the result

back on topic, no batteries and all the bad it does and the problems sourcing materials, more range, faster charging, you'd actually think this is a no brainer.

This about Prius & Toyota, is simply not true...as it pawed the way for all hybrid Toyota vehicles.
Yes, they are pawing the way with hydrogen, now that Honda has pulled the plug with their FCX model. Now that was a f.u. with a car, that has almost no service or stations to fill.

Do you even understand the Automotive industry, 'cause you sure are not working in it!

 

[InVasMani]

If they could scale it down and make it safe and affordable for bikes/motorcycles it would be rad. You're not suppose to hit people on bikes anyway so if you do enjoy your complimentary gift package.

 

[dragontamer5788]

If they could scale it down and make it safe and affordable for bikes/motorcycles it would be rad. You're not suppose to hit people on bikes anyway so if you do enjoy your complimentary gift package.

I'm a big fan of Hydrogen, but given our current understanding of it, it seems impossible to scale down.

My big hopes is for large vehicles: trucks, trains, busses. I have little hope for projects like Toyota's Mirai (smaller cars), let alone very small vehicles like motorcycles. I welcome the attempts of course, but I just have very low expectations of them.

 

[InVasMani]

I don't know there were plenty of things that seemed far out of reach and then suddenly they weren't. Honestly the large vehicles is probably one of the safer starting points where it can make a good bit of sense, but regulation is going to be critical for anything hydrogen related of this sorta no matter what it is. I think society is going to need to evolve it's ways of doing things over the next coming decades in lots of ways if it wants to continue to sustain itself.

 

[defaultluser]

My big hopes is for large vehicles: trucks, trains, busses. I have little hope for projects like Toyota's Mirai (smaller cars), let alone very small vehicles like motorcycles. I welcome the attempts of course, but I just have very low expectations of them.

Why even bother with hydrogen pumps for trucks/buses in the first place? If you're already paying the gargantuan cost of re-manufacturing fuel tanks that only last 100k miles, plus the cost of compressing all that hydrogen, you might as well pay the small overhead of combining carbon monoxide plus h2 to get stable syngas that will replace methane already used in buses/trucks with carbon-neutral replacements?

And here's a viable container ship proving how much easier CNG is to deal with onboard (not to mention, easily shipped over existing pipelines, - plus seamless operation once you switch the source to syngas plants from h2 electrolysis)

Even if it takes us decades to switch to carbon-neutral, it will sill be mountains lower greenhouse /emissionsthan the diesel current used in trucks, trains ansd the fuell oil used in ships.

The world’s first ‘carbon-neutral’ cargo ship is already low on gas

Shipping giant Maersk announced plans for a green methanol-powered vessel by 2023. But there isn't enough of the fuel to go around.

grist.org

 

[dragontamer5788]

Why even bother with hydrogen pumps for trucks/buses in the first place? If you're already paying the gargantuan cost of re-manufacturing fuel tanks that only last 100k miles, plus the cost of compressing all that hydrogen, you might as well pay the small overhead of combining carbon monoxide plus h2 to get stable syngas that will replace methane already used in buses/trucks with carbon-neutral replacements?

Because fuel cell H2 trucks/busses benefit from regenerative braking and any benefits from the electric-car industry. Which are substantial efficiency savings compared to traditional gasoline engines. That's the thing: H2 Fuel Cells are electric engines, just with H2 as the fuel. Every singular electric engine benefit (regenerative braking, advanced motors, etc. etc.) is 100% applied to H2 Fuel Cells.

-------

Like everyone's talking about "battery swap would be so nice if it were figured out". Guess what? They figured it out. H2 is the battery. Fill er up at a H2 pump. H2 Fuel cells is a well designed, electric, fuel-swap engine.

 

[defaultluser]

Because fuel cell H2 trucks/busses benefit from regenerative braking and any benefits from the electric-car industry. Which are substantial efficiency savings compared to traditional gasoline engines. That's the thing: H2 Fuel Cells are electric engines, just with H2 as the fuel. Every singular electric engine benefit (regenerative braking, advanced motors, etc. etc.) is 100% applied to H2 Fuel Cells.

-------

cause obviously, a methane hybrid is beyond science?

Mercedes delivers 93 natural gas hybrid buses - electrive.com

www.electrive.com

wold you actually care to join the discussion, or do you just plan ion finding new ways to get the discussion completely off-topic

 

[dragontamer5788]

cause obviously, a methane hybrid is beyond science?

Mercedes delivers 93 natural gas hybrid buses - electrive.com

www.electrive.com

Interesting. Didn't know they got syngas practical outside of airplanes.

I'm willing to hedge on both H2 and Syngas. Both seem like decent tech, but I've heard more wins in the H2 world more recently. The main benefit of H2 is that its a "purer" form of energy compared to Syngas (ie: Syngas needs H2 as an input, as well as a condensed form of CO2 from somewhere).

H2 itself must be mass produced before Syngas is a reasonable solution. So it seems "simpler" to use H2 to me? But if Syngas (which has volume-density benefits) is more practical, then of course we should use that instead.

 

[defaultluser]

Interesting. Didn't know they got syngas practical outside of airplanes.

I'm willing to hedge on both H2 and Syngas. Both seem like decent tech, but I've heard more wins in the H2 world more recently. The main benefit of H2 is that its a "purer" form of energy compared to Syngas (ie: Syngas needs H2 as an input, as well as a condensed form of CO2 from somewhere).

H2 itself must be mass produced before Syngas is a reasonable solution. So it seems "simpler" to use H2 to me? But if Syngas (which has volume-density benefits) is more practical, then of course we should use that instead.

of course. but its not that much harder to create syngas from a local tank of h2, rather than figure out to transport the high-enough-density h2 (10k psi) that can natively be used as a fuel in a Mirai

bonus: once you create syngas, its a lot cheaper to keep contained than raw hydrogen (and already has tons of pipelines)

the only use case for raw hydrogen from electrolysis is making carbon-free steel; every other use case is better served by combining it wit some carbon-oxide

 

[dragontamer5788]

the only use case for raw hydrogen from electrolysis is making carbon-free steel; every other use case is better served by combining it wit some carbon-oxide

Erm, green ammonia (NH3)? Aka the step before fertilizer? There's no carbon in Fertilizer.

The world uses 180+ Million tons of ammonia, 80% of which is used to make the food that you and I eat every day.

The transition to green-ammonia / electrolysis based Hydrogen Fertilizer is going to happen to improve our food economy and allow us the future of farming. The scale of Hydrogen production must grow to sustain our farms, and doing so in a green manner through electrolysis would be best.

 

[80-watt Hamster]

Erm, green ammonia (NH3)? Aka the step before fertilizer? There's no carbon in Fertilizer.

The world uses 180+ Million tons of ammonia, 80% of which is used to make the food that you and I eat every day.

The transition to green-ammonia / electrolysis based Hydrogen Fertilizer is going to happen to improve our food economy and allow us the future of farming. The scale of Hydrogen production must grow to sustain our farms, and doing so in a green manner through electrolysis would be best.

Does that come back around to H2O at some point? One of the attractions of fuel cells is that you get water back in the end.

 

[dragontamer5788]

Does that come back around to H2O at some point? One of the attractions of fuel cells is that you get water back in the end.

So fertilizer needs H2 (Hydrogen), to make NH3 (Ammonia), which then does a bunch of other steps to make fertilizer (ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate, aka NH4NO3, one kind of fertilizer)

Today is a big process in optimizing the H2 process so that we don't use natural gas or other fossil fuels anymore. Effectively, we were "turning chemical energy" into the energy that plants needed to grow quickly.

This all relates back to H2 as fuel, because as H2 becomes mass produced anyway (we need to get our food chain off of fossil fuels), it turns out that its a pretty good "battery" solution. So instead of pumping H2 into N2 (Nitrogen from the air) to make NH3, we pump H2 into O2 (also from the air) in a fuel cell to move a car forward, making H2O.

 

[Bomby569]

So fertilizer needs H2 (Hydrogen), to make NH3 (Ammonia), which then does a bunch of other steps to make fertilizer (ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate, aka NH4NO3, one kind of fertilizer)

Today is a big process in optimizing the H2 process so that we don't use natural gas or other fossil fuels anymore. Effectively, we were "turning chemical energy" into the energy that plants needed to grow quickly.

This all relates back to H2 as fuel, because as H2 becomes mass produced anyway (we need to get our food chain off of fossil fuels), it turns out that its a pretty good "battery" solution. So instead of pumping H2 into N2 (Nitrogen from the air) to make NH3, we pump H2 into O2 (also from the air) in a fuel cell to move a car forward, making H2O.

You're going round in circles, you need a fuel source to get hydrogen. Hydrogen in itself is not a fuel source, you need one to produce hydrogen.

 

[dragontamer5788]

You're going round in circles, you need a fuel source to get hydrogen. Hydrogen in itself is not a fuel source, you need one to produce hydrogen.

Solar, wind and nuclear.

Which match well with H2 electrolysis because you can turn the H2 plants off when the grid is stressed, effectively turning H2 into a battery that should use largely off-peak electricity (ie: 12noon electricity from solar, and 2am energy from nuclear).

H2 is best because 2am energy is cheaper than 7pm energy.

------

The grid stabilization problem is now the most critical problem, now that solar and nuclear offer enough electricity.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

carbon-free steel

I would encourage you to restate that. "Steel with reduced carbon emissions" is a little more accurate, as steel is iron alloyed with carbon.

 

[Space Lynx]

30 Hydrogen trains have been ordered for delivery to USA by a company called Stadler. Read this yesterday, seems really interesting. Honestly, I think this is great. Hydrogen should be focused in certain areas, EV in other areas, solar powered cars like Aptera in super sunny regions of the world, and so on and so forth. A targeted approach seems to be very smart imo. The idea everyone should be one or the other is a mistake, it should all depend on your region imo.

Also, the first hydrogen train in Germany is already up and running.

Stadler unveils first hydrogen train for U.S., announces order for up to 29 more - Trains

BERLIN — The first hydrogen-powered trainset for use in the U.S. has been presented to its owners at the InnoTrans trade fair by manufacturer Stadler — which also announced an order for more of the equipment for use in Amtrak California intercity service. The two-car trainset was ordered by the...

www.trains.com

edit: mods it's kind of on topic, the hydrogen train, technically will be hauling train cars...

 

[Voodoo Rufus]

Here's another good summary of the challenges of Hydrogen: https://doomberg.substack.com/p/the...?r=f58dl&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web