Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

[Space Lynx]

fuel cell cars have the exact same lithium ion battery packs as full bev,so you have the exact same temp dependency on range

hydrogen pistion ebgnees wont have this problem, but that's decades of development away

not decades, Toyota and Yamaha teamed up and almost have it done from what I understand.

 

[Count von Schwalbe]

fuel cell cars have the exact same lithium ion battery packs as full bev

I would be curious to see your explanation of how a fuel cell vehicle operates.

 

[Space Lynx]

I would be curious to see your explanation of how a fuel cell vehicle operates.

he is sort of right, it does require a large battery - but its still not on same level as an EV battery.

again this will change within a decade imo, when the later gens of the Toyota Mirai are completed.

 

[Mussels]

Everything has huge problems. Wind generator blades are wearing out faster than anticipated, and we can't really do anything with the old ones. Solar panel life is also shorter than expected, and need to be kept clean. Both have consistency challenges. Hydro tends to wreck the environment around it. Nuclear is staggeringly expensive. Those are relevant to the production of hydrogen, which has a laundry list of challenges that are non-trivial to solve. In the end, though, the true issue IMO is that there are too many people requiring too many resources.

This is the kind of stuff that's extremely regional, and especially prone to happening in more corrupt areas (cough USA cough) - they'll get everything done by the lowest bidder contractor who is the only verified supplier and repairer, and then OH NO THE LONG TERM COSTS OOPSIES *retires, someone elses problem*

Most countries have no problems with parts/maintenance/repairs, but of course someone has to get the bum luck low quality hard to repair stuff - and covid helped no one there



We're stuck with 3/4 of the neccesary tech for changeovers to happen, but until the final parts are actually created and work as theorised, we'll get these imperfect flawed products.

 

[Space Lynx]

it also looks like a clean way to hydrogen has been accomplished:

“We have split natural seawater into oxygen and hydrogen with nearly 100 per cent efficiency, to produce green hydrogen by electrolysis, using a non-precious and cheap catalyst in a commercial electrolyser,” said Professor Qiao.

A typical non-precious catalyst is cobalt oxide with chromium oxide on its surface.

“We used seawater as a feedstock without the need for any pre-treatment processes like reverse osmosis desolation, purification, or alkalisation,” said Associate Professor Zheng.

“Our work provides a solution to directly utilise seawater without pre-treatment systems and alkali addition, which shows similar performance as that of existing metal-based mature pure water electrolyser.”

The team will work on scaling up the system by using a larger electrolyser so that it can be used in commercial processes such as hydrogen generation for fuel cells and ammonia synthesis.

source: https://www.adelaide.edu.au/newsroom/news/list/2023/01/30/seawater-split-to-produce-green-hydrogen

 

[AusWolf]

This is the kind of stuff that's extremely regional, and especially prone to happening in more corrupt areas (cough USA cough) - they'll get everything done by the lowest bidder contractor who is the only verified supplier and repairer, and then OH NO THE LONG TERM COSTS OOPSIES *retires, someone elses problem*

Most countries have no problems with parts/maintenance/repairs, but of course someone has to get the bum luck low quality hard to repair stuff - and covid helped no one there



We're stuck with 3/4 of the neccesary tech for changeovers to happen, but until the final parts are actually created and work as theorised, we'll get these imperfect flawed products.

It's not corruption. It's capitalism. Every company (and government) wants to be profitable, so naturally, they get everything done by the lowest bidder.

 

[Assimilator]

It's not corruption. It's capitalism. Every company (and government) wants to be profitable, so naturally, they get everything done by the lowest bidder.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

 

[DOA]

Bev's, one point, travel with a family size load decent distances then you wouldn't be noting the range as adequate, shit the range is highly optimistic if a 8stone Nun was driving on her own round an oval on her own.


Add reality and Bev's fall to shit, sub half they're range.

You don't notice in a Ice car so much but trust me you do in a bev.

Actually I can't trust you . We own two Model S, a P100D and a Plaid. Living in CA we have two neighbors with Mirai. I know the cars well.

Weight does not do much to range, temperature can take 20%, but we are talking 7F for that and not heating the battery. Elevation change also shortens range. The car's range always outlasts our bladder or stomach. Usually 275 - 300 miles with a reserve at 80 - 85 mph. We have about 150K miles combined on the two cars.

Now on to fuel cell vehicles. The older Mirai has less range than the Plaid, the new Mirai is about the same. But they are very slow in comparison and smaller cars. The older one will not be taken on trips due to range and infrastructure.

Now on to Toyota's Project Portal in Long Beach. Look it up if you don't know about it. Started in 2017 to prove fuel cell trucks are better. They are yard trucks, shorter range than the Tesla Semi (another I have seen locally). The biggest problem with the fuel cell trucks is the smaller than BEV battery. The fuel cell trucks are 400 HP when the battery and fuel are both putting out power. Toyota wanted to prove the trucks had plenty of range/power so they put a container on a trailer that was close to max weight and headed over the Grapevine pass to Bakersfield. Poor planning was part of the fail, but it showed one inherent FCV problem. It was a hot day and the Santa Ana winds were blowing. The AC was maxed and there was a headwind . All was well until the Grapevine grade. The long uphill climb depleted the battery and the truck's HP was cut in half as the only power was the fuel cell. 200 HP up a steep grade makes a very slow transit. Going down after the summit the battery quickly filled up from regeneration and the driver had a scare as he only had mechanical brakes.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Actually I can't trust you . We own two Model S, a P100D and a Plaid. Living in CA we have two neighbors with Mirai. I know the cars well.

Weight does not do much to range, temperature can take 20%, but we are talking 7F for that and not heating the battery. Elevation change also shortens range. The car's range always outlasts our bladder or stomach. Usually 275 - 300 miles with a reserve at 80 - 85 mph. We have about 150K miles combined on the two cars.

Now on to fuel cell vehicles. The older Mirai has less range than the Plaid, the new Mirai is about the same. But they are very slow in comparison and smaller cars. The older one will not be taken on trips due to range and infrastructure.

Now on to Toyota's Project Portal in Long Beach. Look it up if you don't know about it. Started in 2017 to prove fuel cell trucks are better. They are yard trucks, shorter range than the Tesla Semi (another I have seen locally). The biggest problem with the fuel cell trucks is the smaller than BEV battery. The fuel cell trucks are 400 HP when the battery and fuel are both putting out power. Toyota wanted to prove the trucks had plenty of range/power so they put a container on a trailer that was close to max weight and headed over the Grapevine pass to Bakersfield. Poor planning was part of the fail, but it showed one inherent FCV problem. It was a hot day and the Santa Ana winds were blowing. The AC was maxed and there was a headwind . All was well until the Grapevine grade. The long uphill climb depleted the battery and the truck's HP was cut in half as the only power was the fuel cell. 200 HP up a steep grade makes a very slow transit. Going down after the summit the battery quickly filled up from regeneration and the driver had a scare as he only had mechanical brakes.

Well going 250 ish miles in a Audi Q7 55E with a full family and all the holidays tackle for a caravan in Cornwall IE no tent etc I found about a 30/40% reduction though I didn't record details.

YMMV literally

 

[AusWolf]

Actually I can't trust you . We own two Model S, a P100D and a Plaid. Living in CA we have two neighbors with Mirai. I know the cars well.

Weight does not do much to range, temperature can take 20%, but we are talking 7F for that and not heating the battery. Elevation change also shortens range. The car's range always outlasts our bladder or stomach. Usually 275 - 300 miles with a reserve at 80 - 85 mph. We have about 150K miles combined on the two cars.

How old are those cars? I'd like to hear about their range when they're 10+ years old. My Fiesta ST will always have the same range and I will never have to pay for a battery swap outside of its warranty period.

 

[DOA]

Well going 250 ish miles in a Audi Q7 55E with a full family and all the holidays tackle for a caravan in Cornwall IE no tent etc I found about a 30/40% reduction though I didn't record details.

YMMV literally

Maybe try a newer car? A Model Y with a heat pump would lose 20%. I agree while EVs are getting better, some are none too good in the cold.

AsuWolf, at 5 years my car has lost 5% and is tapering off. I bought extra range so my plan for 20 years is still on track. Better EVs seem to degrade the first five years then level out.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

Maybe try a newer car? A Model Y with a heat pump would lose 20%. I agree while EVs are getting better, some are none too good in the cold.

AsuWolf, at 5 years my car has lost 5% and is tapering off. I bought extra range so my plan for 20 years is still on track. Better EVs seem to degrade the first five years then level out.

It.was a brand new Audi Q7 55 E.

The point was loaded to the max verses one guy sat in it which still would not hit the quoted max?.

Not temp , 4/5 people plus luggage over 250 miles verses one guy only doing the same?

No chance you're doing the same with load as without,. Physics yo.

I know a caravan tower who's seen that first hand.
He's back in a diesel Volvo.

 

[AusWolf]

Maybe try a newer car? A Model Y with a heat pump would lose 20%. I agree while EVs are getting better, some are none too good in the cold.

AsuWolf, at 5 years my car has lost 5% and is tapering off. I bought extra range so my plan for 20 years is still on track. Better EVs seem to degrade the first five years then level out.

It's the nature of lithium batteries to degrade. They don't just "level out" and stay that way for eternity.

 

[Shrek]

Everything degrades, but if the batteries last 200,000 mi, I'd say they do their job.

 

[AusWolf]

Everything degrades, but if the batteries last 200,000 mi, I'd say they do their job.

I don't know. Batteries in my phones typically die in 3-5 years (although, I charge them every 2-3 days). The longest lasting one I've had is in my Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini Pro, which has just died after 10 years.

 

[Frick]

I don't know. Batteries in my phones typically die in 3-5 years (although, I charge them every 2-3 days). The longest lasting one I've had is in my Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini Pro, which has just died after 10 years.

Thankfully EV batteriers have a few more cells than a phone. The first Teslas have been on the road for so long there is reliable data on battery degradation. The big thing is that the used market for cars will completely change, but that would have changed anyway.

 

[AusWolf]

Thankfully EV batteriers have a few more cells than a phone. The first Teslas have been on the road for so long there is reliable data on battery degradation. The big thing is that the used market for cars will completely change, but that would have changed anyway.

Interesting chart, thanks. It looks like it's not as bad as I thought, but I still don't like the variation between best and worst cases.

I still wonder what happens when a battery in an electric car dies. I assume it's pretty costly to replace. Also, there's no reliable way to check for battery condition in a used car, as far as I know.

 

[Space Lynx]

I test drove a 2016 Nissan Leaf about one year ago, it was winter so heated seats were on, heater on, etc. I drove it fifteen minutes, started at 96% battery, and came with about 70% battery (can't remember the exact numbers but I remember being in shock at it being almost a 2 minute driving to 1% loss ratio)... after fifteen minutes. It was below freezing that day, but yeah... no electric for me, it only has a 110 mile range to begin with.

Tesla's may have better batteries, but even that article that was just linked says it depends on the model and capacity of the battery.

there's no reliable way to check for battery condition in a used car, as far as I know.

this is correct. the dealership told me they were "astonished" at how good this Leaf's battery was. lol. they will say anything, those car salesman

 

[Frick]

Interesting chart, thanks. It looks like it's not as bad as I thought, but I still don't like the variation between best and worst cases.

I still wonder what happens when a battery in an electric car dies. I assume it's pretty costly to replace. Also, there's no reliable way to check for battery condition in a used car, as far as I know.

The batteries for a Tesla cost between $5-7k, depending on stuff, total cost from $13k. But remember the BEV industry is still in its infancy, and that the batteries are rated for 1500 charge cycles, meaning 480k-800k kilometers of range. The calculations does change compared to an ICE car. It's less than you would have spent on gas or diesel for the same range, but it's a big sum to spend at once.

 

[AusWolf]

I test drove a 2016 Nissan Leaf about one year ago, it was winter so heated seats were on, heater on, etc. I drove it fifteen minutes, started at 96% battery, and came with about 70% battery (can't remember the exact numbers but I remember being in shock at it being almost a 2 minute driving to 1% loss ratio)... after fifteen minutes. It was below freezing that day, but yeah... no electric for me, it only has a 110 mile range to begin with.

Tesla's may have better batteries, but even that article that was just linked says it depends on the model and capacity of the battery.



this is correct. the dealership told me they were "astonished" at how good this Leaf's battery was. lol. they will say anything, those car salesman

One of my colleagues has a Leaf about the same age as the one you tried. He drives a 50-ish mile round trip to work and back home, and has to charge it every day. He bought it to save on fuel, but deeply regrets his decision by now. So I agree, thanks, but no thanks. Especially since I live in an apartment, so I have no place to charge it anyway.

Those salesmen will sell you a glass of water for a million bucks if you let them.

"Is the car in great condition?"
"Of course."
"And how's the engine?"
"Yes!"

 

[Frick]

I test drove a 2016 Nissan Leaf about one year ago, it was winter so heated seats were on, heater on, etc. I drove it fifteen minutes, started at 96% battery, and came with about 70% battery (can't remember the exact numbers but I remember being in shock at it being almost a 2 minute driving to 1% loss ratio)... after fifteen minutes. It was below freezing that day, but yeah... no electric for me, it only has a 110 mile range to begin with.

My gas guzzling 2003 Volvo S80 2.5T uses something something like 20% more fuel when it's cold. So yeah, little range, even less range in winter. That is the equivalent of those tiny Toyotas with 20L fuel tanks.

One of my colleagues has a Leaf about the same age as the one you tried. He drives a 50-ish mile round trip to work and back home, and has to charge it every day. He bought it to save on fuel, but deeply regrets his decision by now. So I agree, thanks, but no thanks. Especially since I live in an apartment, so I have no place to charge it anyway.

He does save on fuel though. But yeah, you need to be aware that those things doesn't do long runs. It's the point of them. My bosses drive Tesla Model 3's and they have no complaints on the range, and one of them is using it for travel quite a bit.

 

[AusWolf]

The batteries for a Tesla cost between $5-7k, depending on stuff, total cost from $13k. But remember the BEV industry is still in its infancy, and that the batteries are rated for 1500 charge cycles, meaning 480k-800k kilometers of range. The calculations does change compared to an ICE car. It's less than you would have spent on gas or diesel for the same range, but it's a big sum to spend at once.

That would definitely change with mass adoption which would inevitably drive electricity costs up to the sky.

5-7k for a battery is a HUGE amount of money!

To be honest, the appeal of EVs is the same to me like that of solar panel homes. Sure, you save on energy consumption from the grid/gas, but you spend infinitely more on initial costs and replacements.

He does save on fuel though. But yeah, you need to be aware that those things doesn't do long runs. It's the point of them. My bosses drive Tesla Model 3's and they have no complaints on the range, and one of them is using it for travel quite a bit.

He used to, but not anymore ever since my workplace started charging EV users for car charging.

 

[Space Lynx]

The batteries for a Tesla cost between $5-7k, depending on stuff, total cost from $13k. But remember the BEV industry is still in its infancy, and that the batteries are rated for 1500 charge cycles, meaning 480k-800k kilometers of range. The calculations does change compared to an ICE car. It's less than you would have spent on gas or diesel for the same range, but it's a big sum to spend at once.

I still say Toyota had the right idea with hybrids. With smaller cars and better aerodynamics we could probably have reached 70 mpg with a hybrid by now, in fact I think Toyota would have done very well for themselves if they made a smaller hybrid (corolla hybrid and prius are too big for what I need personally) I'd rather have smaller and better gas mileage.

I don't want to go on a long vacation drive, and have to stop for 5-7 hours to charge, its much nicer having that freedom to fill up quickly and move on, also I'd like to go on rural nature sight seeing. Maybe someday car companies will have a battery exchange program, you can just pull in, drop your battery, and fresh one is put in, all automated with a card scan or something. That would be pretty cool, but even then I read something about their not being enough natural resources for everyone to have EV cars... not sure how accurate that was though.

 

[AusWolf]

I still say Toyota had the right idea with hybrids. With smaller cars and better aerodynamics we could probably have reached 70 mpg with a hybrid by now, in fact I think Toyota would have done very well for themselves if they made a smaller hybrid (corolla hybrid and prius are too big for what I need personally) I'd rather have smaller and better gas mileage.

I agree, but that's another problem with EVs and hybrids: the battery pack is large and heavy, so you can't build a small car around them. I prefer small and zippy cars, so that's another no-go on EVs from me.

 

[Chrispy_]

IMO one of the big problems with EVs is that they're trying to replace internal combustion like-for-like.

There's no need for a city runabout to be capable of seating five people and travelling 200km at 120km/h when 95% of the journeys are 10km trips for a single occupant never reaching speeds above 80km/h Moving two tons of vehicle that's sized/shaped like a traditional ICE car is expensive and inefficient, whether that's fossil fuels, hydrogen, or electricity. Big EVs for high-speed, long-range journeys are crazy heavy.

I'm not advocating everyone switches to ebikes, but we need the industry to start producing smaller, lighter, more practical cars for the majority of journeys. When it comes to long-distance trips, a PHEV or just modern low-emission, highly efficient ICE is still a reasonable option. It's just important to change the outdated mindset of "one car that does everything" when it's hugely wasteful for 95% of its intended use.

We have the technology to produce lightweight (like 600kg) EVs with two seats and some cargo that can reach 100km/h with a 50km range, whilst meeting current safety requirements. That's not going to be ideal for highway journeys, but it's going to be fraction of the cost of current EVs and far more useful to most people most of the time.