Intel 13th Gen Core "Raptor Lake" Desktop Processors Launched: +15% ST, +41% MT Uplift

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

What about heat? Right now it's impossible to normally cool the Zen 4 CPUz even without the 3D cache - temperatures at 95 degrees aren't normal, no matter what AMD says.

5800X3D saw lowered boost frequency because of the heat buildup due to 3D cache. What will the consequences be in Zen 4?

I bet on the engineering skills of AMD over you personally.
And via experience running at those temperature levels is fine long term.
Besides 98% of computers sit idle more than active so in reality a non issue.
Also game's don't push it hard enough anyway to hit 95, so all good.

 

[fevgatos]

These look like good updates overall, real-world reviews will be interesting. Also kind of fun to see Intel fight AMD so hard on value, with the 13900K suddenly being quite "affordable" (for its class, that is). AMD price cuts incoming? I certainly wouldn't mind that. The 13600K-7600X matchup will also be quite interesting to see tested.

You think the 13600k - 7600x will be interesting? I thinks its going to be very one sided. The 7950X vs the 13900k will be the interresting one for me, the rest feel like a walk in the park for intel

 

[Valantar]

What about heat? Right now it's impossible to normally cool the Zen 4 CPUz even without the 3D cache - temperatures at 95 degrees aren't normal, no matter what AMD says.

5800X3D saw lowered boost frequency because of the heat buildup due to 3D cache. What will the consequences be in Zen 4?

Normal? No. But fine? Yes. What is normal is just what we're used to. The silicon, substrate, socket and motherboard can all handle the heat. We just have to readjust our frame of reference for how CPU cooling works - from adjusting thermals with better cooling to adjusting performance with better cooling. We've already been moving this direction for years.

Of course, if you're a reasonably average user, just set your CPU to Eco mode and you'll get much lower power draw (and heat, unless you also scale back cooling) for a minimal performance loss.

You think the 13600k - 7600x will be interesting? I thinks its going to be very one sided. The 7950X vs the 13900k will be the interresting one for me, the rest feel like a walk in the park for intel

We'll see. I don't think Intel's 15% ST gains will hold up in gaming, so the main question is whether it'll be noticeably faster or just another entry in the "yep, this is more than fast enough for anybody" club. And it'll be interesting to see how AMD responds to Intel's 13th gen pricing, of course.

 

[RandallFlagg]

What about heat? Right now it's impossible to normally cool the Zen 4 CPUz even without the 3D cache - temperatures at 95 degrees aren't normal, no matter what AMD says.

5800X3D saw lowered boost frequency because of the heat buildup due to 3D cache. What will the consequences be in Zen 4?

I'd be more concerned about surrounding components than the CPU. It's up to the motherboard manufacturers to compensate.

I mean, I've actually seen pictures of motherboards where the thermal pads on the VRMs melted, stuff like that. But then, in the real world, most people's PCs are idle 90%++ of the time so they are not really in danger of that. Extreme performance users, might want to pick their motherboard carefully. Overall, I doubt this will be an issue. I could be wrong, again it's more a question of the motherboard makers testing their wares.

 

[Valantar]

I'd be more concerned about surrounding components than the CPU. It's up to the motherboard manufacturers to compensate.

I mean, I've actually seen pictures of motherboards where the thermal pads on the VRMs melted, stuff like that. But then, in the real world, most people's PCs are idle 90%++ of the time so they are not really in danger of that. Extreme performance users, might want to pick their motherboard carefully. Overall, I doubt this will be an issue. I could be wrong, again it's more a question of the motherboard makers testing their wares.

You're not wrong, but this POV misses one thing: the cause for the high CPU temperatures is literally that it's difficult for heat to move away from the core. So, if it's sufficiently hard for heat to get from the core to the heatsink for temperatures to be this high, then why would it be easy for heat to get into the motherboard, which has much less direct contact?

VRM cooling will be more important with this generation, but that's due to higher power draws and more load on VRMs, not due to 95-degree CPUs. A 170W CPU dumps more heat into the socket and motherboard than a 105W CPU, yes, but it does so pretty much regardless if it's running at 95, 60 or 35. It's the amount of thermal energy released that matters, not the absolute temperature of the CPU core, which is a product of heat output and the specific thermal transfer characteristics of surrounding materials.

 

[mahirzukic2]

Normal? No. But fine? Yes. What is normal is just what we're used to. The silicon, substrate, socket and motherboard can all handle the heat. We just have to readjust our frame of reference for how CPU cooling works - from adjusting thermals with better cooling to adjusting performance with better cooling. We've already been moving this direction for years.

Of course, if you're a reasonably average user, just set your CPU to Eco mode and you'll get much lower power draw (and heat, unless you also scale back cooling) for a minimal performance loss.


We'll see. I don't think Intel's 15% ST gains will hold up in gaming, so the main question is whether it'll be noticeably faster or just another entry in the "yep, this is more than fast enough for anybody" club. And it'll be interesting to see how AMD responds to Intel's 13th gen pricing, of course.

To be honest I expected the Intel's prices to be higher than what they announced, so a big surprise there.
I would like if this would force (incentivize) AMD to lower their prices, since I kind of like the new CPUs but they, as well as the whole platform are REALLY expensive, based on the first 2 days of it's release.
I've just checked Geizhals (gh.de) and price of 7950x dropped about 40 - 45 euros, so not too shabby. Still expensive though.
On the other hand, I have checked the AM5 boards, and the cheapest one grew 50 or so euros from yesterday.
I think we are too early to tell and that it would be wise to wait for at least a month after Raptor Lake is released before making any purchases.
I would like a new platform after all, but I don't have the itch.

 

[Dirt Chip]

I have no probles with 95 or 195 degree, I do care however about noise and spacial cooling requirements.
If I must use a good AIO at least (that`s basicly AMD recomandation) and that AIO will be 100% fan for every >5sec load than we have a problem, espacialy when intel top cpus can still stay under 95 (or 195..) with proper fan cooling and with a lowere overal noise for the same or higher wattage consumption\workload.

So if I must use a louder and more expensive cooler for the same level of performance than AMD`s "95 is the new 65" design choice is a design flaw.

 

[Valantar]

To be honest I expected the Intel's prices to be higher than what they announced, so a big surprise there.
I would like if this would force (incentivize) AMD to lower their prices, since I kind of like the new CPUs but they, as well as the whole platform are REALLY expensive, based on the first 2 days of it's release.
I've just checked Geizhals (gh.de) and price of 7950x dropped about 40 - 45 euros, so not too shabby. Still expensive though.
On the other hand, I have checked the AM5 boards, and the cheapest one grew 50 or so euros from yesterday.
I think we are too early to tell and that it would be wise to wait for at least a month after Raptor Lake is released before making any purchases.
I would like a new platform after all, but I don't have the itch.

Yeah, the way I see it, Z/X series platforms don't make sense for most users any more. PCIe 5 - who cares? Half a kilo of aluminium plating covering everything? No thanks. Additional PCIe 4.0 beyond the first m.2 and PEG slot? Meh - >99% of PCs have a single AIC and maybe two SSDs. And PCIe 4.0 SSDs are no faster than 3.0 SSDs outside of sequential transfers anyhow. The way I see it, Z/X platforms are for people with very special needs/use cases, those who don't care about money, or those who want bragging rights. Give me a bargain-basement B650 with a workable VRM (with a heatsink) and two m.2 slots and I'll be happy.

 

[RandallFlagg]

To be honest I expected the Intel's prices to be higher than what they announced, so a big surprise there.
I would like if this would force (incentivize) AMD to lower their prices, since I kind of like the new CPUs but they, as well as the whole platform are REALLY expensive, based on the first 2 days of it's release.
I've just checked Geizhals (gh.de) and price of 7950x dropped about 40 - 45 euros, so not too shabby. Still expensive though.
On the other hand, I have checked the AM5 boards, and the cheapest one grew 50 or so euros from yesterday.
I think we are too early to tell and that it would be wise to wait for at least a month after Raptor Lake is released before making any purchases.
I would like a new platform after all, but I don't have the itch.

This entire cycle may be a dud. I expected a lot of people to run out and buy Zen 4, but my local Microcenter still has plenty of stock of all SKUs (shows 25+ for all of them). The only one I've seen sell out anywhere was the 7950X at Best Buy, but it came right back in stock.

Same deal with motherboards. Also as you say, very expensive, the *least* expensive AM5 is $260 - and that is an ASRock PG Lightning 14 phase VRM board. Move up just a tad to the Steel Legend, which has an "ok" reputation, and it's $299. The Z690 version of that board is $209. Maybe ASRock did better this time, but their low and midrange board VRM designs were total garbage on Alder Lake. The board next up is $470.

I think this might be more of a macro-economic thing than having anything to do with performance. If there is still a bunch of supply after this weekend, the whole PC / electronics space might be in trouble. I still don't know a single person who bought an iPhone 14, for example.

 

[Valantar]

I have no probles with 95 or 195 degree, I do care however about noise and spacial cooling requirements.
If I must use a good AIO at least (that`s basicly AMD recomandation) and that AIO will be 100% fan for every >5sec load than we have a problem, espacialy when intel top cpus can still stay under 95 (or 195..) with proper fan cooling and with a lowere overal noise for the same or higher wattage consumption\workload.

So if I must use a louder and more expensive cooler for the same level of performance than AMD`s "95 is the new 65" design choice is a design flaw.

This is the thing: you can't have your cooling set to hit 100% fan speed at high temperatures with this type of boost/thermal management system. It needs to be regulated by something else - a function of CPU power and thermals over time, for example.

This entire cycle may be a dud. I expected a lot of people to run out and buy Zen 4

People have been buying PC hardware like crazy for the past two years. These are not the conditions for a day one sell-out.

 

[RandallFlagg]

People have been buying PC hardware like crazy for the past two years. These are not the conditions for a day one sell-out.

I'm sure that factors in, but it's very relative.

AMD users - esp those who would buy an 'X' performance chip -haven't had a new chip in 2 years. There are a ton of people here still on Zen 2, Gen 9 and earlier, and like me Gen 10. These type of users tend to upgrade frequently. I do about every 2-3 years.

I think a lot of this has to do with high inflation, and currency exchange rates. High GPU prices may also be affecting these decisions, after all for a gamer what good does it do to say upgrade from a 3900X or 9900K when you've got a 2070 Super. Quick calculation shows that's probably a $1500++ upgrade to see a difference. $400 7700X + $300 (questionable ASRock) motherboard + $250 RAM + $700 GPU? That's $1650 + Tax, in the US.

 

[Jimmy_]

I have a i7 12700K, on windows 11 22H2, no gaming issues at all here....

With the ADL, the gaming issues were there in some Game - Denuvo DRM
Intel had release a note previously - then they went on fixing those issues one by one.

 

[Lovec1990]

if i may chime in:

I agree its a bad time to buy PC considering inflation,delivery issues and some manufacturers still try to ride mining time prices and now it looks like we are heading into recession plus current energy prices may lead to less people willing to pay such high prices so i belive that after few months manufacturers gonna fix prices in order to sell enough products

 

[P4-630]

if i may chime in:

I agree its a bad time to buy PC considering inflation,delivery issues and some manufacturers still try to ride mining time prices and now it looks like we are heading into recession plus current energy prices may lead to less people willing to pay such high prices so i belive that after few months manufacturers gonna fix prices in order to sell enough products

Boycott, the only way....

Unfortunately people are still buying even when more expensive...

 

[Lovec1990]

we do not need to boycott considering current world state we can say they will adapt if they do not they will not sell as good as they want so they will adapt prices

 

[RandallFlagg]

An interesting find over at Tom's. Maybe accidental Raptor Lake HEDT appearance :

 

[Why_Me]

It is cheaper, but still expensive, meaning also the cost for a good motherboard. I could be wrong here, but can someone pair a top Raptor with a $150 or less motherboard and expect at least 95% of the performance?
People replacing their platforms every year or two, will go with Intel. people replacing their platform every 4-6 years, should consider investing on AM5 (I am not saying Zen4, but AM5).

Intel Core i5 13400F + B660 / B670 board + DDR4 3600

Intel's Core i5 13400 is shaping up to be a killer budget gaming chip

E cores come to our favorite budget CPU.

www.pcgamer.com

 

[Dirt Chip]

This is the thing: you can't have your cooling set to hit 100% fan speed at high temperatures with this type of boost/thermal management system. It needs to be regulated by something else - a function of CPU power and thermals over time, for example.

We will need to have thermometer on the cooler itself to relay on instead the cpu or use a nonexistent method than AMD hasn't provided yet.

 

[wheresmycar]

Intel Core i5 13400F + B660 / B670 board + DDR4 3600

Intel's Core i5 13400 is shaping up to be a killer budget gaming chip

E cores come to our favorite budget CPU.

www.pcgamer.com

So many options at the close of 2022. This sort of combo is right up my alley if AMD fails to deliver reasonably priced B-series boards or if the 13400F/13600K beats the 7600X/7600 by a clear mile. I was gonna spend big and go all out on a 8 core processor, premium X/Z board and performance-scaled DDR5 memory sweet spot... but now re-evaluating everything... definitely ain't gonna pay £200-£400+ more for a measly uplift in performance at 1440p. Seeing NVIDIA and likely-AMD aren't behaving with Next Gen card prices... i'd be better off putting those savings towards a premium graphics card (4070/4080 RTX or 7600/7800 - if thats the next AMD naming sequence).

Don't know about everyone else.... i'm still excited how things shape up towards the end of the year. The Intel/AMD price war will be interesting

 

[Lovec1990]

So when we will get reviews?

 

[FeelinFroggy]

Find it hilarious how intel included the 3d chip while AMD didn't even bother with it for their Zen 4 presentation.

AMD did not include the 3d chip in their presentation because it beat all their Zen 4 chips in gaming. Probably not good business to show last generation beating the next gen chips.

 

[THU31]

An interesting find over at Tom's. Maybe accidental Raptor Lake HEDT appearance :

You reckon there could be some HEDT SKUs with just P-cores (maybe at the lower end), or do you think they would add E-cores to all models?

 

[Valantar]

You reckon there could be some HEDT SKUs with just P-cores (maybe at the lower end), or do you think they would add E-cores to all models?

With this many cores on MSDT, there isn't much of a market for HEDT in the first place. Outside of the Xeon workstation market, that is. There's a reason why Intel hasn't launched a HEDT chip since 10th gen.

 

[wheresmycar]

AMD did not include the 3d chip in their presentation because it beat all their Zen 4 chips in gaming. Probably not good business to show last generation beating the next gen chips.

Even if they did, it wouldn't bother me. the X3D offering was/is ahead of its time... surprisingly too good in the games which benefit and even more surprisingly what seemed like a chewed up and exhausted AM4 socket. Also adds an extra layer of excitement for 7000 series X3D models. In both cases i'm annoyed at AMD's higher premiums for these chips... i'd love to see a 7600X3D opposed to the 8-core supplement for lets say $350 MSRP but then again AMDs now got greedy mouths to feed too (just business)

 

[RandallFlagg]

You reckon there could be some HEDT SKUs with just P-cores (maybe at the lower end), or do you think they would add E-cores to all models?

34 cores is an odd number, I'd bet it isn't a core count but a thread count => implies there are e-cores.

Edit: I'm wrong, it's 34 Raptor Cove cores.

Like @Valantar said though, there isn't really a market there.

Or perhaps I should say it's there but not what most people think it is.

Intel makes Xeon's (Ice Lake-SP and Cascade Lake based) in workstation guise for those who need massive IO. You can build your own too, see socket 4189 CPUs and motherboards from newegg for the latest and greatest. And ofc AMD does threadripper. Compute is not the big thing in that space though, it's all about the IO.