Do you want AMD to make better low-end graphics cards?

[wheresmycar]

I don't know why i voted "yes" as i'm not interested in lower-end cards. I assumed the position, for many value hunters current available affordable cards aren't measuring up in terms of being "better" or affordable hence "yes"

Aren't there several options already available at the lower front... whether going new or used?

Personally I want to see AMD and NVIDIA producing better mid-ranged cards for a more reasonable asking price... at the moment its pants!!

 

[john_]

I have a task for AMD
Please make the new Radeon RX 7400 such - 130% faster than the old RX 6400:

Would you buy it?

I am asking because the last 15 years or so, I am reading something that starts like your wish, but ends like this

"Please make the new Radeon RX 7400 such - 130% faster than the old RX 6400, so I can hope to buy a cheap Nvidia card at the same price range with good enough specs"

I have to apologize here. I do not try to distort the meaning of your post.

I just read again and again for ALL those years, probably even in more than two languages, like all minds in all the globe are in total synchronization about this and stuck in time:
"Please AMD make good enough and cheap GPUs for Nvidia to lower prices. I want to buy a new Nvidia GPU" (well, RTX 4080 12GB got a rename)
"Please AMD make good enough and cheap CPUs for Intel to lower prices. I want to buy a new Intel CPU" (that is already happening)


By the way. GTX 1630 KILLED this scenario. Also Nvidia doesn't feel the need to lower prices UNDER MSRP for it's mid range cards.

 

[kapone32]

The APUs have low graphics performance limited severely by the memory interface and version throughput.
Imagine how the poor OEMs put single channel memory and how bad the integrated graphics performance would be.
If the budget segment becomes APUs, then this segment will be dead.

I understand that current APUs are not up to snuff. Think about a 13400F/7600 level CPU that sells in retail channels for $149 but add a 6500XT chip and have that interface with DDR5 with 8GB dedicated to it even 4 lanes of PCIe 5 is the bandwidth of a full 3.0 slot means it would not be starved and it might actually surprise us. Especially if you have a NVME or SSD and are using Direct Storage with a dose of FSR or XESS at 1080P and it might be better than we think especially if it's tuned properly. Remember AMD mentioned in their RDNA3 launch that they are working with OEMS to create their Advantage program and that would mean AMD (If I remember correctly) validating the boxes as well so those worries should be mitigated.

That is kind of what I am getting at but by the laws of heat dissipation a Discrete GPU will always be faster than a chip that is sharing the CPU die and cooling and indeed memory. That however does not need to be in a box that OEMS sell for $399 as a 1080P Gaming box. The way I see it if they want the PC market to survive they need to serve the entire market and budget has always been a huge part of that market, including OEMs. Which by the way is the best as it is full of people like us who are teenagers or in their 20s for the most part. Today I am older and stable so I can afford to buy a GPU for $1000 or even $1500 but I don't have 200 friends on Steam, followers on Discord that are in the same position as me.

I guess what I am saying is the PC traditionally has been supported by value in DIY so it attracted Gamers that could build a nice box for about 20% more than the current console but be so satisfying in performance that you get that smile and tell all your friends. Like when I found a 7950XT (circa 2012) for $199 on Amazon but it was the Sapphire Nitro VaporX version and I absolutely loved it. I agree with another user we need to see 6800XTs at $299 and the 6700XT at $199 with the 6500XT being $89. They have their new cards and we just have to go through the cards that retailers overpaid for but need the space so have to sell even though distributors are the ones that make the real money. I fully expect that if the 7900XT is within 5-7% raw Gaming with the 4090 that they will list it for around that price as well.

 

[80-watt Hamster]

Good is relative. What is completely missing from the analysis is that they were better than the other bad cards they launched against. They did not exist in a vacuum. The fact the 1050ti was still being made, and sold for more than either RX is shameful. The price of the 1650 during the pandemic was laughable. The 1030 selling for $150 was deplorable.

We keep circling back to historical data that means precisely dick to the market when these cards were released.

Best of a bad bunch != good, either. Good enough? Sure. But that's not the same thing.

1050 ti? Good card. 1650? Pretty okay, though it got upstaged by the genuinely decent 1650S. Selling for too much during the price bubble doesn't change any of that. The 6500 XT is "meh" at best on a technical level regardless of pricing.

 

[ARF]

Would you buy it?

I am asking because the last 15 years or so, I am reading something that starts like your wish, but ends like this

"Please make the new Radeon RX 7400 such - 130% faster than the old RX 6400, so I can hope to buy a cheap Nvidia card at the same price range with good enough specs"

I have to apologize here. I do not try to distort the meaning of your post.

I just read again and again for ALL those years, probably even in more than two languages, like all minds in all the globe are in total synchronization about this and stuck in time:
"Please AMD make good enough and cheap GPUs for Nvidia to lower prices. I want to buy a new Nvidia GPU" (well, RTX 4080 12GB got a rename)
"Please AMD make good enough and cheap CPUs for Intel to lower prices. I want to buy a new Intel CPU" (that is already happening)

Most probably I will buy it. I am in a bit weird situation. Because all cards under Radeon RX 6600 are too slow for my personal use case, I feel the need to spend more and go all in for Radeon RX 6800 XT 16 GB class GFX.
But... if there was something like Radeon RX 7400 8 GB for less than 200 money, I would be quite ready to say yes and buy it, at least to see if I will be able to find a solution with lower settings in-games.

I see that there are people who would follow the description and buy an nvidia card instead, but such a vastly improved low end offer from AMD might greatly improve its market position, at least it will provoke a much needed price battle between the companies and better value offers.

 

[AusWolf]

People slammed the 6500 XT for being no better, or arguably worse, than the card it replaced while asking $30 more in MSRP. The Navi 24 XT chip it uses even seems to be held back by the card's own memory bus. Then there's the performance drop on PCIe3 due to the X4 interface. Working well for your and others' use cases doesn't make it a good card.

Except that you were never supposed to replace a 5500 XT with a 6500 XT to begin with. Upgrading every generation nowadays is foolish. I agree with the PCI-e x4 limitation being a bit meh, though.

 

[AnotherReader]

Not using Nvidia for Xbox one and Playstation 4 onward, had nothing to do with cost. After both companies decided to leave behind the power arch, they evaluated ARM, MIPS, and x86. After testing prototypes, both concluded x86 SOC was the way to go for a number of reasons. That left Nvidia out. AMD built an entire product division for the purpose of working on both projects, so that was a huge plus as well.

You are correct of course, that MS axed Nvidia primarily because of cost, back in the OG Xbox days.

And I agree that it isn't us owners of the 6400 and 6500 that complain about them. We knew exactly what we were buying, and the cards do exactly what is expected. The media decode missing is a non factor for my use case. My 5600 in ECO with 4.65GHz boost can easily handle all media duties. It is heavily bottlenecked by a 6400 gaming, so it has the cycles to give for other tasks.

Microsoft ditched Nvidia after the original Xbox and they hadn't picked x86 SOCs at the time. An arbitration panel was involved in their dispute:

Graphics chip maker Nvidia has been ordered to continue supplying Microsoft with Xbox chips, the company has revealed.

Honestly, I prefer them stop making any APUs, since I don't need them and won't feel their absence.

That will never happen; good luck having usable laptops without APUs.

 

[80-watt Hamster]

Except that you were never supposed to replace a 5500 XT with a 6500 XT to begin with. Upgrading every generation nowadays is foolish. I agree with the PCI-e x4 limitation being a bit meh, though.

I never claimed users do or should do that; that'd be asinine. If one is sticking to the same segment, every other gen is the soonest upgrading makes sense. Maybe not even then.

The 6500 XT replaced the 5500 XT in the product stack and the market. That it provided no improvements in any respect but efficiency (which isn't nothing) yet cost significantly more makes it a rather poor replacement.

 

[ARF]

That will never happen; good luck having usable laptops without APUs.

The laptops use iGPUs parts in APUs as monitor signal output only. No normal person games on an integrated Intel or Radeon Vega iGPU - they are horrendously awful, slow and disgusting.

 

[AusWolf]

I never claimed users do or should do that; that'd be asinine. If one is sticking to the same segment, every other gen is the soonest upgrading makes sense. Maybe not even then.

The 6500 XT replaced the 5500 XT in the product stack and the market. That it provided no improvements in any respect but efficiency (which isn't nothing) yet cost significantly more makes it a rather poor replacement.

It costs more because of "the market conditions" and "the current climate" and whatnot. Every company increased prices all across the board, not just AMD. I'm not saying that I agree with it - all I'm saying is, hate the game, not the player.

 

[AnotherReader]

The laptops use iGPUs parts in APUs as monitor signal output only. No normal person games on an integrated Intel or Radeon Vega iGPU - they are horrendously awful, slow and disgusting.

Gaming isn't the sole use case for computers, and AMD's latest APUs perform at the level of a 1050 Ti: usable for older games or at low settings.

 

[freeagent]

I want AMD to put the ATi logo back on, and for them to make better cards than Nvidia (again)

 

[80-watt Hamster]

It costs more because of "the market conditions" and "the current climate" and whatnot. Every company increased prices all across the board, not just AMD. I'm not saying that I agree with it - all I'm saying is, hate the game, not the player.

And what I'm saying is, conditions, climate and pricing aside, it should have performed at least marginally better (15% would have been nice) instead of no better or potentially worse. 6- and 7-series roundly bettered their predecessors. Expecting 4- and 5-series to do the same shouldn't have been unreasonable. Additionally the >60% performance gap between the 6500 XT and the 6600 was absurd.

EDIT: grammar/clarity

 

[HTC]

I'm looking for a sub 100W card that has similar performance of a 6600 card AND costs no more than 200€.

Too much to ask?

 

[kapone32]

I'm looking for a sub 100W card that has similar performance of a 6600 card AND costs no more than 200€.

Too much to ask?

That is exactly what is missing. Though I like my 6500XT the 6600 should be sitting in that price bracket. It is unfortunate that the 6600M is not being sold in all channels because that card does pretty good.

209.0US $ 35% OFF|Mllse Amd Radeon Rx6600 8gb Graphics Card Gpu Gddr6 128-bit 14 Gbps 7nm New Video Card Support Amd Intel Desktop Cpu - Graphics Cards - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

 

[HTC]

That is exactly what is missing. Though I like my 6500XT the 6600 should be sitting in that price bracket.

This is the cheapest 6600, here in Portugal ...

 

[kapone32]

This is the cheapest 6600, here in Portugal ...

View attachment 269330

That card I posted is a 6600M from Ali Express. There is no real difference in price for you or me.

amd rx 6600 | Newegg.ca

Search Newegg.ca for amd rx 6600. Get fast shipping and top-rated customer service.

www.newegg.ca

 

[HTC]

That card I posted is a 6600M from Ali Express.

That card would cost me 235.2 + 6.43 = 241.63€, and that's without any customs tax.

Last time i ordered something rather expensive from outside Europe, i ended up paying almost 50% of the total value in customs tax ...

 

[Sithaer]

That is exactly what is missing. Though I like my 6500XT the 6600 should be sitting in that price bracket. It is unfortunate that the 6600M is not being sold in all channels because that card does pretty good.

209.0US $ 35% OFF|Mllse Amd Radeon Rx6600 8gb Graphics Card Gpu Gddr6 128-bit 14 Gbps 7nm New Video Card Support Amd Intel Desktop Cpu - Graphics Cards - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Where I live a brand new Sapphire 6400 is ~200 $ 'USD' and thats the cheapest model.
If I open that Aliexpress link then its ~240 $ since it already has our 27% VAT added to it. 'Yeah ordering from Ali with no VAT is not a thing anymore, good old days eh..'

Brand new cheapest 6600 in my country is around 340-350 $. 'I paid around 400$ for my second hand RTX 3060 Ti 1+ month ago with 1 year warranty left on it'

To be honest with such prices I've completely switched to the second hand market when it comes to GPUs, currently using my third second hand card and so far I had no issues.
I simply refuse/cannot pay such prices for brand new cards, luckily at least we have a solid second hand hardware market in this shit ass country where I can find decent sellers/buyers so its not that risky.. 'There is a reputation system in place on that site, just gotta buy from trusted sellers with a solid seller background history/can even find cards with warranty left on them'

 

[wheresmycar]

And what I'm saying is, conditions, climate and pricing aside, it should have performed at least marginally better (15% would have been nice) instead of no better or potentially worse. 6- and 7-series roundly bettered their predecessors. Expecting 4- and 5-series to do the same shouldn't have been an unreasonable expectation. Additionally the >60% performance gap between the 6500 XT and the 6600 was absurd.

seeing this thread earlier i was looking at some benchmarks and came across the same observation. Weird wide open black hole between the 6500 XT and 6600 (as much as 80% diff in some titles). What were they thinking? Maybe 5000-series cards filled the gap both in terms of price and performance?

 

[HTC]

If I open that Aliexpress link then its ~240 $ since it already has our 27% VAT added to it.

That's even worse than the 23% here in Portugal.

 

[AusWolf]

And what I'm saying is, conditions, climate and pricing aside, it should have performed at least marginally better (15% would have been nice) instead of no better or potentially worse. 6- and 7-series roundly bettered their predecessors. Expecting 4- and 5-series to do the same shouldn't have been unreasonable. Additionally the >60% performance gap between the 6500 XT and the 6600 was absurd.

EDIT: grammar/clarity

I see your point, although it makes little difference from the user's perspective. If you've got a 6500 XT level, but older card, then upgrading doesn't make any sense unless you go for the 6600 which is significantly better, but not a lot more expensive.

I similarly couldn't understand the criticism that Intel got for the stagnation during the quad-core i7 era. I mean, how is it not a big win for the user when you have no incentive to spend money on a new CPU for nearly 10 years?

 

[john_]

Most probably I will buy it. I am in a bit weird situation. Because all cards under Radeon RX 6600 are too slow for my personal use case, I feel the need to spend more and go all in for Radeon RX 6800 XT 16 GB class GFX.
But... if there was something like Radeon RX 7400 8 GB for less than 200 money, I would be quite ready to say yes and buy it, at least to see if I will be able to find a solution with lower settings in-games.

Well, there is a small difference between a $500-$600 RX 6800 XT and an RX 7400 for less than $200. If you are looking for an RX 6800 XT, in the end the RX 7400 will be too little for you. And today you don't need to buy something, for deciding if it good for you. With all those reviews and videos out there, with various configurations in various games, someone can find the answer easily.

I see that there are people who would follow the description and buy an nvidia card instead, but such a vastly improved low end offer from AMD might greatly improve its market position, at least it will provoke a much needed price battle between the companies and better value offers.

And..... there. Let me take the bait here and put that last part of the sentence in bold and conclude that you will NEVER EVER buy an AMD card. Even if there was an RX 7400 at sub $200, you would be waiting for Nvidia to drop prices. For a long time in fact, considering the business plan of Nvidia of keeping low-mid range cards away from any danger of consumers seeing those as "VFM products". What Huang said and many made it a meme, is in fact Nvidia's core of it's business. "The more you buy, the more you save", Huang said and in retail and gaming cards is more like "The more you pay, the more you save", meaning, Nvidia's VFM options are way above the low end and mid range options, towards the high end models.

 

[Vayra86]

The thing is that AMD's lowest card Radeon RX 6400 4 GB is very limited and according to TPU's general performance chart, it falls so much down that RTX 4090 is rated at 827% the performance!

Do you want to see a Radeon for $150 which compared to not 830% but to 400% with RTX 4090?

Do you want AMD to start using the latest fab technology (TSMC N3, "3 nm") for the entry value graphics cards?

View attachment 268961
AMD Radeon RX 6400 Specs | TechPowerUp GPU Database

Rhetorical question is rhetorical

Of course they should.

 

[_JP_]

That card would cost me 235.2 + 6.43 = 241.63€, and that's without any customs tax.

Last time i ordered something rather expensive from outside Europe, i ended up paying almost 50% of the total value in customs tax ...

And that's if you even get the actual die that was advertised and not a weirdly flashed RX560.
Right now, I've been getting packages that go exclusively though EU storages so that buyers don't get to pay customs tax. That was a thing during the EU law change, that state-side mandated a difference on the packages being handled from certain origins. Obviously, Alibaba is not interested in losing market, so they changed they way parcels arrive to Europe to circumvent the law (like Sithaer said, adding the equivalent VAT on top of the price). This was in some 2 months time and now you pay a bit more for shipping, but at least not 23% on top of the total cost, or a fine if you try to cheat the true value of the item.