Japan and the Netherlands Said to Join US in Blocking Access to Chip Making Tools for China

[Bomby569]

The CCP can't kick your California door in at 3AM for wrongthink against the current US regime. Feds can. This whole "hurr durr CCP backdoors are dangerous" thing is such blatant propaganda. American chip manufacturers are required to put backdoors into their hardware and tech companies in general are forced to comply. Look at what happened to Qwest's CEO when he found out about NSA spying on their network and tried to stop it. He was arrested for "insider trading" and denied bail by the Supreme Court of the United States on *the same day*. That court takes years to handle things, but someone who tried to stop illegal fed spying gets railroaded in a day.

Feds are a threat. American backdoors are a threat. To you, personally. Chinese backdoors aren't.

For the people at least it's patriotic spying, homegrowned local sourced spying. And better for the environment if you don't have to import it in containers from the other side of the world.

For the government is like that guy that beats his kids but don't allow no one else to do it.

 

[Vayra86]

Too late.. Market this is all ready flooded with fake or replicates of branded transistors, MOSFET, IC and more.
The Chinese did their worst all ready.

What is too late according to you? China has no EUV production capacity, nor supply chain, and the latter is as important as the former. They say they've made a scanner, was a recent news post even, now let's see them make chips on that scanner I'll predict right now its not going to be economically viable IF they're even functional at any cutting edge node size.

The market is flooded with current-and last gen chips, but the world will move on, with or without China producing their archaic stuff in the future.

 

[Argyr]

Sorry but I don't hate Chinese people. And no amount of government shilling will change my mind. I don't want to isolate them in any manner, and I do want them to be a part of the "global community", of science, research and everything else they can contribute towards.

And I don't give a crap about the west's problems with the politics of Chinese leadership. I'm seeing happy Chinese people who are satisfied with their lives in China and that is all that matters. Chinese people are allowed to leave China contrary to North Koreans with their country. That is all that matters, it's a free country. Freedom in a western definition means something completely different, and these traditional eastern countries will never accept "western freedom". Western freedom is a bit more than simple freedom...

 

[phanbuey]

Sorry but I don't hate Chinese people. And no amount of government shilling will change my mind. I don't want to isolate them in any manner, and I do want them to be a part of the "global community", of science, research and everything else they can contribute towards.

And I don't give a crap about the west's problems with the politics of Chinese leadership. I'm seeing happy Chinese people who are satisfied with their lives in China and that is all that matters. Chinese people are allowed to leave China contrary to North Koreans with their country. That is all that matters, it's a free country. Freedom in a western definition means something completely different, and these traditional eastern countries will never accept "western freedom". Western freedom is a bit more than simple freedom...

No one hates chinese people, or russian people. Almost everyone hates the respective mafias that control and steal from them. Governments are all a temporarily necessary evil, some just more evil than others.

 

[Argyr]

No one hates chinese people, or russian people.

categorically false.

respective mafias that control and steal from them

as if the west wasn't corrupt to the bone. just look at the current scandal in EU parliament. A huge chunk of politicians have accepted bribes from Qatar, they found 600k Euros in luggage at the home of one of the politicians. These were the politicians who called everyone not to their liking corrupt. You are delusional if you believe in any sort of western moral superiority

 

[phanbuey]

as if the west wasn't corrupt to the bone. just look at the current scandal in EU parliament. A huge chunk of politicians have accepted bribes from Qatar, they found 600k Euros in luggage at the home of one of the politicians. These were the politicians who called everyone not to their liking corrupt. You are delusional if you believe in any sort of western moral superiority

Sure now imagine that, but more, and also if you complain about it or point it out online (like you have) then you disappear.

As a Russian who fled the USSR, lived under that system first hand, has family there and also follows the CCP closely, no matter how corrupt you think western officials are -- the alternatives are much worse. Political corruption is for sure a fact everywhere but in russia and china, on top of the corruption, there's an all-powerful mafia that dissapears people and does whatever it wants.

At least here you have a system that pretends to care and be just (unless you're assange or snowden),- and it's actually much much better.

 

[Argyr]

Sure now imagine that, but more, and also if you complain about it or point it out online (like you have) then you disappear.

how is America different? You get canceled and lose your job if you dare to criticize woke liberalism. Instant racist if you pick the wrong words. White privilege if you dare to say something bad about a person of another race. People in the west are afraid to speak their minds on issues of contemporary politics. Mainstream media is 100% leftist in Europe, I don't know about US. Europe literally banned RT. Banning any sort of media is not freedom in my book. Turbo brainwashing MSM is as bad as anything you people criticize in these eastern countries.

As a Russian who fled the USSR

Russia is fine, it's not the USSR anymore. Why do you think only 9% of European companies actually left Russia? It's a big economy with lots of people living normal western lives. Everything else is MSM bullshit.

 

[phanbuey]

how is America different? You get canceled and lose your job if you dare to criticize woke liberalism. Instant racist if you pick the wrong words. White privilege if you dare to say something bad about a person of another race. People in the west are afraid to speak their minds on issues of contemporary politics.

Joe Rogan and the massive amounts of youtubers, authors, and media people that make money doing all of those things disagree with you. As does the free market -- all that stuff fails and very few people want it. America is different because the system allows those crazy left people to have a voice without being thrown in jail, so authoritarian governments use that to scare their people into thinking everyone in the west wants to cut your balls off - not true.

Russia is fine, it's not the USSR anymore. Why do you think only 9% of European companies actually left Russia? It's a big economy with lots of people living normal western lives. Everything else is MSM bullshit.

MSM can go suck it. And I know Russia, trust me I used to go there to visit fam-- it was getting so much better. I used to even go build Houses with Habitat for Humanity in Czurgo (in your country), and train around europe, was awesome. Not anymore tho. You now go to prison there for saying "war", borders are closing, people are fleeing and being called traitors. Families are split down the middle. The current government is screwing over the future generations and turning back to soviet times -- and they want to put this garbage system everywhere by stealing western tech. No thanks.

 

[Argyr]

Joe Rogan and the massive amounts of youtubers, authors, and media people that make money doing all of those things disagree with you.

Until they get demonetized. Also, isn't Joe Rogan a centrist? He totally is a centrist.

A few examples of western freedom come to my mind:
https://electroverse.co got demonetized for supporting a climate theory of an upcoming mini ice age, and supporting it with actual historic climate data. They almost went bankrupt but supporters saved them.

https://vigilantcitizen.com a website researching occultism in popular culture got demonetized for saying that men cannot get pregnant. No joke. They almost went bankrupt but supporters saved them.

Just a few examples.

I come from an ex-communist country. I know exactly where the west is heading towards, all the signs are there. It wont be funny.

Regarding Russia. You have every right to form an opinion on them, but I wont argue with you on this issue anymore. I'm know much more about Russia than most of the people living in the US bubble (excluding you), and it's a normal country, just like any other. Not better, not worse. Everything else is media fabrication. Russians don't allow gay parades and western (brainwashing, subverting) NGO's are banned. That's about all there is that's different. There are millions of muslims in Russia, black people, asians. it's a normal place (for today's standards)

 

[phanbuey]

"But supporters saved them".

As opposed to RAIN, that just got shut down, no saving, all the supporters either fled or are in prison. We have here Alex Jones, Daily Wire, Babylon Bee, FOX(lol) -- at least you have a voice.

Regarding Russia. You have every right to form an opinion on them, but I wont argue with you on this issue anymore. I'm know much more about Russia than most of the people living in the US bubble (excluding you), and it's a normal country, just like any other. Not better, not worse. Everything else is media fabrication. Russians don't allow gay parades and western NGO's are banned. That's about all there is that's different. There are millions of muslims in Russia, black people, it's a normal place (for today's standards)

We can agree to disagree -- that's the beauty of it. I like that you have your own view. And I can continue to hate that all Russian media is currently being controlled by the govt and is just propaganda lies (you have a problem with MSM no?). But we can also be realistic and say that if a hostile government is in a self-admitted tech race to dominate the world order -- well... maybe not a bad idea to cap that until we all chill out a bit.

 

[trsttte]

1) I don't care about IP theft and you shouldn't either, unless you own a patent. Willing to bet most reading this don't. You aren't a corporation, and protecting the profits of a company you have nothing to do with is bizarre.

It's not that simple. I generally agree, what the hell do I care if company A wins over company B, but when you have this happen consistently over broad market segments and sponsored by state powers it starts causing undesirable power shifts and (more important for we average joes) kills market competition. One of the great examples is how Huawei was able to disrupt the communications market (read infrastructure, not phones) after massive stolen data from a Canadian company, Nortel, which eventually went bankrupt.

I'm seeing happy Chinese people who are satisfied with their lives in China and that is all that matters. Chinese people are allowed to leave China contrary to North Koreans with their country. That is all that matters, it's a free country. Freedom in a western definition means something completely different, and these traditional eastern countries will never accept "western freedom". Western freedom is a bit more than simple freedom...

Xianjiang citizens might disagree. Freedom is not a western fabrication or a "racist principle" like CCP propaganda turned to calling it, part of the UN founding principles were written by chinese and chinese people want the exact same freedoms we enjoy in "western" countries, they just can't get it against all powerfull state.

State power strutures keep their power by maintaining a balance of citizen well being with government inconveniencies (taxes, laws, freedom limitations, etc.), with propaganda structures making sure we feel our life is good (american dream anyone?). When that balance is disrupted the population rises up, i.e. how Chinese protests broke out against zero covid and made the CCP quickly turn around as never before seen when all grievances came to bear and called for a change in government.

Not better, not worse. Everything else is media fabrication. Russians don't allow gay parades and western NGO's are banned. That's about all there is that's different. There are millions of muslims in Russia, black people, asians. it's a normal place (for today's standards)

You get lobbed into a van by showing a blank poster, otherwise no biggie.

 

[Argyr]

all Russian media is currently being controlled by the govt and is just propaganda lies

categorically false. Moscowtimes for instance is absolutely west-leaning media, and there's lots of youtube channels etc.

But I agree with you, a big chunk of Russian media is in goverment hands. But here is where you are delusional: It's the same in the west. Media in Europe is catastrophical. The bias, the propaganda is unimaginable. BBC for instance, the british channel funded by taxpayer money is brutally biased, and it's the literal definition of one-sided propaganda. What about american MSM? CNN? Fox? NBC? they all are enormous propaganda machines, presenting stuff as one-sided as possible.

This is the nature of things in our brave new world

 

[phanbuey]

categorically false. Moscowtimes for instance is absolutely west-leaning media, and there's lots of youtube channels etc.

But I agree with you, a big chunk of Russian media is in goverment hands. But here is where you are delusional: It's the same in the west. Media in Europe is catashrophical. The bias, the propaganda is unimaginable. BBC for instance, the british channel funded by taxpayer money is brutally biased, and it's the literal definition of one-sided propaganda. What about american MSM? CNN? Fox? NBC? they all are enormous propaganda machines, presenting stuff as one-sided as possible.

This is the nature of things in our brave new world

Not delusional, and not false - I still watch the russian news, and Noviyi Tanci (great show). About MSM we can agree there, as can alot of the US population (basically how Trump won). But there's a lot of media here they don't tell you/want you to know about:
(2) Edward Snowden, Glenn Greenwald & Chris Hedges on NSA Leaks, Assange & Protecting a Free Internet - YouTube

^ like this . Stay free.

 

[Argyr]

Xianjiang citizens might disagree. Freedom is not a western fabrication or a "racist principle" like CCP propaganda turned to calling it, part of the UN founding principles were written by chinese and chinese people want the exact same freedoms we enjoy in "western" countries, they just can't get it against all powerfull state.

you didn't just bring up Xianjiang did you? Let's not talk about the covid vaccine-terror in the west, it was just as bad as China, if not worse.

we don't know what's going on in China. They live in their own bubble. How do we know what's going on in China? Through western media reports. Now that's the real problem. Western media is biased. I treat every western report on China with a grain of salt.
China is a mysterious land, so different that we possibly can't truly understand it with our western minds. I would prefer the Americans leave them be, I don't want another world war.

 

[AsRock]

what daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

And gets other special privileges, ever wounder why they can ship stuff so cheap, other more poor country's need that help not china.

 

[ThrashZone]

what daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

Hi,
We could likely say the same thing about VAT locals are being charged it's just another name right

 

[trsttte]

China is a mysterious land, so different that we possibly can't truly understand it with our western minds. I would prefer the Americans leave them be, I don't want another world war.

Wait what!? No, no no no. It's difficult to have a complicated conversation without going over forum rules, but to keep it simple and try to stay within those coundaries, Chinese people are not "so different that we possibly can't truly understand it with our western minds". They are human beings just like any other and deserve the same rights and liberties as any others. Freedom and Human rights is not a western or racist concept.

Western media is biased. I treat every western report on China with a grain of salt.

As you should, but let's not be so close minded as to ignore the mountains of dissidents who were able to flee their respective regimes (be it China or anywhere else) who continuously report on this.

we don't know what's going on in China. They live in their own bubble

... and that's because? Because their governmnet is affraid of any and all information that falls outside their control and narrative and has very strict control of the information space. No google, no twitter, no youtube, no reddit, no archive.org, no wikipedia, no discord, no pornhub, no medium, no linkedin, etc etc etc. What are they so afraid off?

 

[Mistral]

Well, China did crack the ballpoint pen five or so years ago so advanced lithography cannot be far away.

Isn't labor in Mexico and India for example now practically lower cost than China? Yes, I'll take a some years to set up everything there, but some economic pain is totally worth not sponsoring one of the worst regimes on earth. Helping Mexico and India further develop is much better for everyone as well, as it will bring a more peaceful and cleaner future.

Anyhow, I'm a bit surprised it took Japan and the Nethers this long - it's easily a benefit for them in the long term.

 

[WorringlyIndifferent]

You are delusional if you believe in any sort of western moral superiority

Bingo.

Like the former-USSR guy said, I fully believe the corruption in places like Russia and China are worse than in the US/Europe, but that doesn't mean it's not *also* really bad here. And in response to one of your other posts, yes, media in the US is 100% woke leftist "you're either with us or you're against us and also a white supremacist" propaganda.

To address the west vs east corruption argument though, I don't think it's productive to try to one-up each other over who has it worse. The more important factor to realize is that almost no one on earth today is being represented or ruled by people who are even tangentially working in the interest of the public and every single major media and tech corporation is fighting *desperately* to keep that fact quiet. More importantly, trying to keep quiet the fact that a lot of people are now aware of it.

 

[TheEndIsNear]

I hate my country and what it's turned into and I hate all government but I do not want a CCP #1 superpower. That would not be good. I can't believe we were afraid of Russia

 

[Totally]

what daft stupidity, all this "trade war" bullshit the US is doing with china is sheer stupidity and daftness and i hope it bites the US in the ass hard in the short and long run.

China is a major player in the world economy and everyone likes cheap chinese goods or manufacture their overpriced crap(i.e.: apple) there for pennies

Have you for once ever considered the negative effects of all these cheaply made overpriced goods? That maybe, this will lead to less e-waste? Less planned obsolescence? Fewer anti-consumer practices in order to get people to ditch their old shiny for the new incremental shiny? Longer periods of time between shinys instead of a new shiny every year for the sake of it?

 

[thesmokingman]

This has been coming for a while and it's really stupid, imo. Nevermind the loss of globalization, but did they even think about what happens when the Chinese catch up, because they eventually will? Look at what they have done with EV's in China. They have closed the gap to Tesla the most of all competitors. The sophistication of Chinese EV's make GM and Ford look like dunces building China into the largest EV market in the world.

Anyways, all these NSA rumored backdoors and secret tools buried in our chips will definitely not be in the Chinese homegrown chips. Did anyone think about that before...?

 

[trsttte]

media in the US is 100% woke leftist "you're either with us or you're against us and also a white supremacist" propaganda.

Let's get real for a second, no it's not. If you tune in to specific opinion shows or specific loud mouthpieces on either camp of the barricades, it may feel like that, reality is quite different and much more moderate. What changed is the level of amplification any kind of nonsense gets because society is driven by clicks and flashing lights to keep your attention engaged. It's on you to not fall for the nonsense

I don't think it's productive to try to one-up each other over who has it worse. The more important factor to realize is that almost no one on earth today is being represented or ruled by people who are even tangentially working in the interest of the public

It's not a matter of one upping each other, it's just an obvious acknowledgement that things are not the same. A blanket statement like you just made is wrong when the realities around the globe are so different. Yes we all have problems but the degree of those problems is wildly different. The entire argument being made is that these countries are hypocrites because they're not perfect either which is an obviously bad argument.

 

[wywywy]

The export restrictions on China will only make the market that should have been replaced by others.Advanced semiconductor manufacturing has nothing to do with national defense.This operation actually contributed to the development of China.

 

[mplayerMuPDF]

Let's not be silly, now. There is also such a thing as a war of words. The word has many uses, i.e., the war on drugs (fiscal/judicial). It does not necessarily have to be physical conflict.

The War on Drugs is a particularly poor example as it has involved *a lot* of violence.