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Why did we abandon hydrogen cars so quickly?

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As long as not everybody can charge an EV at home, and charging times at public stations are North of an hour at minimum, and batteries die and are costly to replace, even EVs are irrelevant and unsuitable for mass adoption, imo.

I know hydrogen is problematic as well, but trying to find an alternative solution instead of pushing an agenda that doesn't work is commendable.


Okay, whiny trombone repairman, I raise you one from the UK downtown: where they are using streetlight to replicate over-night charging for cars parked by them with garages There are already 7000 installed after just 5 years:


And while its not a quick charger (those are currently in highway junctions and rest stops), after the conversion to led, there is enough spare-load to overnight-charge several cards from one post! that's equivalent to having a garaged spot for your car to idle-charge

there's nothing preventing us from implementing the same in our largest cities! in fact, they already won a contest at NYC:

So why do you folks keep whining about this imaginary Trombone salesman who cant charge his car overnight (free-time while the car is parked under that lamppost) plus one fast charger over lunch , and drive a thousand miles inn a single day?

who the fuck can drive more than a thousand miles without taking an overnight rest?
 
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even if i discount the 918, a VW polo tdi blue motion gets 91 mpg.
so why does Toyota need a hybrid to do almost half, while causing more damage to the planet,
ignoring the diesel doesnt have batterie packs needing disposal.

@Shrek
we were talking about about mpg.
those are hybrids, and are used that way.
and even if looking at straight electric, no 918 owner will need to drive +10 mls thru the city in e-mode.
they will be using it for 2-3 mls from/to the parking spot, the rest will be "combo" mode.

@KrazyT
for me it was just to show ppl that 1. the prius isnt a very eco car.
2. others can do better with same kind of tech.

surely spending almost 1M currency to get it is already a waste, but seeing what other german brands ar doing (audi),
shows hybrid tech isnt limited to getting 50mpg 4 doors, but offer more fun in sports cars as well,, yet consume less and less emissions.
how about +1000 HP from a V6 diesel (hybrid)? ;)
 
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Okay, whiny trombone repairman, I raise you one from the UK downtown: where they are using streetlight to replicate over-night charging for cars parked by them with garages There are already 7000 installed after just 5 years:


And while its not a quick charger (those are currently in highway junctions and rest stops), after the conversion to led, there is enough spare-load to overnight-charge several cards from one post! that's equivalent to having a garaged spot for your car to idle-charge

there's nothing preventing us from implementing the same in our largest cities! in fact, they already won a contest at NYC:
That's interesting! As long as no one steals your cable, I guess. :ohwell:

We still have to solve the problems of the cost of battery production and replacement, and charging time for road trips.
 
@AusWolf
it needs to be used where it matters, in the city and short distance around.
especially busses/delivery vehicles etc, can easily be electric, or at least hybrids,
allowing for "emission" free use, to reduce air pollution in the city, ignoring it would also make less noise.

its like everything else, it needs to match the use/purpose.
most will not use their hyper car to drive 1200 mls across europe to their vacation destination,
the same way most wont uses their 3.5t work truck, to go track racing on the weekend.
 
That's interesting! As long as no one steals your cable, I guess. :ohwell:

We still have to solve the problems of the cost of battery production and replacement, and charging time for road trips.
compared to cost of replacement of an h2 fuel tank (over 20k for one mirai owner,)wire theft inst that large of a problem,

te cost of a battery;productio nmeans less likely to be stolen than the equivalent to gas car exhaust thefts
,let-alone that 20k h2 tank theft
 
@AusWolf
it needs to be used where it matters, in the city and short distance around.
especially busses/delivery vehicles etc, can easily be electric, or at least hybrids,
allowing for "emission" free use, to reduce air pollution in the city, ignoring it would also make less noise.

its like everything else, it needs to match the use/purpose.
most will not use their hyper car to drive 1200 mls across europe to their vacation destination,
the same way most wont uses their 3.5t work truck, to go track racing on the weekend.
Not everybody can have multiple cars for multiple purposes. In Europe, most people have one that needs to cover it all. There's no such thing as city car, or long distance car, just "the" car.

compared to cost of replacement of an h2 fuel tank (over 20k for one mirai owner,)wire theft inst that large of a problem,

te cost of a battery;productio nmeans less likely to be stolen than the equivalent to gas car exhaust thefts
,let-alone that 20k h2 tank theft
"Not as big an issue" is not good enough. I wouldn't even leave a £2 USB cable lying on the street.
 
Not everybody can have multiple cars for multiple purposes. In Europe, most people have one that needs to cover it all. There's no such thing as city car, or long distance car, just "the" car.


"Not as big an issue" is not good enough. I wouldn't even leave a £2 USB cable lying on the street.
are you also the Kind of person who cant resist picking up random-exploited USB drive or USB-killer cables from some backwoods parking lot too?

in any case, just adding an audible security horn (think most car alarm) will prevent all but the biggest and cheekiest assholes from exploitation of charge cable!
 
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It really is revelatory as to what counts as normal conversation and personal/political attacks on this forum. Honestly worth studying, this demographic is something else.
 
@AusWolf
public transport and virtually all delivery vans/trucks have nothing to do with private ownership/use of a car.

there is more than one continent, more than one country, not everything has to be perfect for "your" location.
with +7B ppl on this planet, enough places where it DOES make sense, even if its just for commercial stuff.
 
The global warming is very unpleasant - here everyday there are record breaking temperature highs.

We need to find solutions to stop the global warming, including transition to carbon-neutral vehicles.

I know we are very rich with coal, oil and gas, but is it worth it to make the life on Earth unbearable because of these?
 
As long as not everybody can charge an EV at home, and charging times at public stations are North of an hour at minimum, and batteries die and are costly to replace, even EVs are irrelevant and unsuitable for mass adoption, imo.

I know hydrogen is problematic as well, but trying to find an alternative solution instead of pushing an agenda that doesn't work is commendable.
Everyone can charge an EV at home. Here in London people run cables across the footpath to their car at the kerb because they don't have a private driveway or garage.
If you can afford an EV, you live in a house with electrical sockets and can afford a £30 extension cord, presumably.

Is it practical, or considerate to people using the footpath? No. But that doesn't seem to have stopped everyone around here from doing it.

Okay, whiny trombone repairman, I raise you one from the UK downtown: where they are using streetlight to replicate over-night charging for cars parked by them with garages There are already 7000 installed after just 5 years:


And while its not a quick charger (those are currently in highway junctions and rest stops), after the conversion to led, there is enough spare-load to overnight-charge several cards from one post! that's equivalent to having a garaged spot for your car to idle-charge

there's nothing preventing us from implementing the same in our largest cities! in fact, they already won a contest at NYC:

So why do you folks keep whining about this imaginary Trombone salesman who cant charge his car overnight (free-time while the car is parked under that lamppost) plus one fast charger over lunch , and drive a thousand miles inn a single day?

who the fuck can drive more than a thousand miles without taking an overnight rest?
Official London black cab taxis use these, since the most recent generation LEVC Hackney Carriage is all-electric.
 
It's true in London you see charging at lamp posts and people running cables from their house to there car. I personally think it's already becoming an issue even with only a single digit % of the total car market being EV. It would be insane if all cars where EVs... Not to mention not enough lamp posts and no guarantee you get a space outside your own house.

E Hydrogen, synthetic fuel and or some kind of bridge via conversion or similar between ICE and the next gen still looks like the solution to me. Pure EV will probably always be just a niche that is unsuitable for mass adoption.
 
It's true in London you see charging at lamp posts and people running cables from their house to there car. I personally think it's already becoming an issue even with only a single digit % of the total car market being EV. It would be insane if all cars where EVs... Not to mention not enough lamp posts and no guarantee you get a space outside your own house.

E Hydrogen, synthetic fuel and or some kind of bridge via conversion or similar between ICE and the next gen still looks like the solution to me. Pure EV will probably always be just a niche that is unsuitable for mass adoption.
it never has to reach that level of imagined socket density inside London/NYC, because there will always be a certain percentage who own no car!

there may be some corner-cases, but I expect most less-pricey neighborhoods to have lower car density than streetlamps account-for! and places with more than one car per-home using street parking will have enough density to afford installing wireless chargers in each parking space:

 
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this is another fever dream brought-on by the easy installation of a gas tank in your own home..,,which is somewhat easy to have filled! But there is nothing on the planet that will ever make h2 that easy!

its not like you can refine usable gasoline at home, and even though you have electrolysis for h2, by the time you take into account:
1: percentages of purity,
2. filtering-out contaminants,
3: paying for an insanely-expensive 10k psi h2 compressor, plus
4: that insanely-expensive catalytic converter for the most efficient electrolysis (iridium, ruthenium, and platinum,)

See here for more details on the complex chemical process:


you might as well install multiple Supercharger points on the same land (you would have the same basic utility, at a fraction of the price!) Even getting h2 home-delivered will never be feasible

So...I read through some of this and then started to laugh at the end. Let me explain. Do you know why the catalytic converters on cars are stolen? I'd assume so...but based upon your current statements it might not be clear. Catalytic converters utilize platinum, heat, and pressure to make sure that they produce CO2 rather than monoxides and dangerous stuff. Yes, your argument that rare earth metals are required, and thus this is impossible, ignores that if you own a current ICE engine you already have some expensive rare earth metals.

The other bits are varying amounts of true.
The purity of hydrogen, in a closed electrolysis cell, is not an issue. This would effectively be an electric car. It's only an issue if you intend to explode the hydrogen and pull ambient oxygen.
The payment for a compressor is...something. If you want to store insanely high pressure liquid/gaseous hydrogen it's needed...but the economy of scale...and amortization over the lifetime of the vehicle, leaves us something else.

It's funny. I see where you are coming from, but I just can't buy that you're sharing the real issues.



Now, let me offer my $2.18 (2 cents with inflation).
1) Hydrogen is insanely dangerous, very small, and those two mean you're leaking some amount of it all the time. Imagine if your gasoline tank was constantly leaking...
2) Water and methane are primary sources for hydrogen. One is finite and difficult to procure, and the other is a greenhouse gas. Which poison is better?
3) Cost. So...if you want to run this as an ICE it'll take additional cylinder reinforcement, new cooling techniques, and you still need oil as a lubricant.
4) Boom! If you've ever seen a burst gas tank combust it's dangerous. A pressurized hydrogen tank shreds the tank into a fragmentation grenade...and the combustion of the gas will rip apart everything remaining with a pressure wave. Sometimes cool technology is limited by practical safety concerns.
5) Cost. Electric vehicles are being subsidized by the government. If you're in the US look up the cash for clunkers program...and understand that the government is trying to modify people's behavior by artificially decreasing prices... This is how we have farmers growing corn to make ethanol...which is not cost effective without huge subsidies. This is not present with hydrogen because nobody has the tech to a reasonable standard. I hate to say this, but unless Toyota is willing to license their tech for almost nothing then it'll never fly. Electric cars are doing nothing new...so their only barrier to entry was motor controls and battery availability. The former is now cheap. The later is now also government subsidized. When you can say the same for hydrogen we can move forward with it.

I'd love to see Hydrogen. I hate the fact that current EVs are stupidly expensive, and the mining of enough copper along with the extra demand on the energy grid makes them about as wasteful as an ICE (with a much shorter battery life). That said, the likelihood is that we'll see EVs take over for ICE, then a reactionary shift back to efficient diesel and electric, and finally a new novel technology. If that happens to be hydrogen, great. That said, I'm not driving a rolling bomb that wants to frag me, shred me, liquify me, and do all of this because some idiot is chatting on their cell phone and decides to "accidentally" run a light.
 
are you also the Kind of person who cant resist picking up random-exploited USB drive or USB-killer cables from some backwoods parking lot too?
It's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand, but no, I'm not that daft.

in any case, just adding an audible security horn (think most car alarm) will prevent all but the biggest and cheekiest assholes from exploitation of charge cable!
Let's hope you're right.

@AusWolf
public transport and virtually all delivery vans/trucks have nothing to do with private ownership/use of a car.

there is more than one continent, more than one country, not everything has to be perfect for "your" location.
with +7B ppl on this planet, enough places where it DOES make sense, even if its just for commercial stuff.
I agree with the commercial side. Businesses have the biggest impact, imo, so if they do their share (switch delivery services to electric, for example), then my half-yearly road trips won't bother anyone. :)

it never has to reach that level of imagined socket density inside London/NYC, because there will always be a certain percentage who own no car!

there may be some corner-cases, but I expect most less-pricey neighborhoods to have lower car density than streetlamps account-for! and places with more than one car per-home using street parking will have enough density to afford installing wireless chargers in each parking space:

Are you implying that only people with access to off-street parking (and maybe a small fraction of the rest) should own a car?
 
It's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand, but no, I'm not that daft.


Let's hope you're right.


I agree with the commercial side. Businesses have the biggest impact, imo, so if they do their share (switch delivery services to electric, for example), then my half-yearly road trips won't bother anyone. :)


Are you implying that only people with access to off-street parking (and maybe a small fraction of the rest) should own a car?


no, I'm saying quite clearly from my link that there is already a cables-free solution that has been standardized for half-a-decade:; for setting-up neighborhoods with higher car density, you can easily embed an Plugless overnight charger in the road surface (the next time you repave, its just bit extra to add the plate for every parking space )

yeah, you need power under the road, but most high-density downtown already require that! it is way more secure than plug (and if your cables become stolen on a daily-basis, maybe they can make a version of this designed to fit in a post, except with a huge (range-increasing) antenna!
 
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no, I'm saying quite clearly from my link that there is already a cables-free solution that has been standardized for half-a-decade:; for setting-up neighborhoods with higher car density, you can easily embed an Plugless overnight charger in the road surface (the next time you repave, its just bit extra to add the plate for every parking space )

yeah, you need power under the road, but most high-density downtown already require that! it is way more secure than plug (and if your cables become stolen on a daily-basis, maybe they can make a version of this designed to fit in a post, except with a huge (range-increasing) antenna!
Plugless charging? That sounds interesting. Can you send me some more resource on that? Google isn't giving me much.
 
Plugless charging? That sounds interesting. Can you send me some more resource on that? Google isn't giving me much.

plugless is the most-popular brand name of a wireless standard:


but also cant find any details or papers on that old thing- this is one where ornl is developing the next-gen:


not a bad future of in-motion charging,all without the complexity of a Catenary system!
 
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plugless is the most-popular brand name of a wireless standard:


but also cant find any details or papers on that old thing- this is one where ornl is developing the next-gen:


not a bad future of in-motion charging,all without the complexity of a Catenary system!
"The Department of Energy has supported a range of research to make EV ownership more convenient and less costly for consumers, including the goal of a 15-minute or less charge time." - If they manage to pull that off without too much heat or battery degradation, I'll say wow!
 
In some sense it already exists with the concept of swappable battery.
 
In some sense it already exists with the concept of swappable battery.
I'm not sure if I'm on board with that. I'd much rather own the battery myself and make sure it's properly taken care of.
 
If the one you get is worn, it gets swapped out next round.
 
If the one you get is worn, it gets swapped out next round.
I don't want to swap it next round, it's just extra hassle that nobody needs. Anything owned by the public turns into sh*t sooner or later.

A tank of petrol gives me roughly 350 miles every single time. Swapping batteries is a step backwards from this certainty.

Edit: I don't think swapping will become a thing anyway, mostly because roadside stations would have to store and charge an enormous number of them, which is not possible.
 
We just have to wait and see how things pan out; it would work for the people that can't charge at home.
 
We just have to wait and see how things pan out; it would work for the people that can't charge at home.
I can't charge at home, but I'd rather wait for a different solution than use crappy communal batteries. The wireless charging @defaultluser linked looks promising, imo. Or hydrogen, if we figure out how to produce, transport and store it safely and efficiently.
 
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