Just curious, but why can't you find laptops with Ryzen 7640HS or 7840HS by themselves? Always has a dedicated GPU

[Space Lynx]

I have looked at several websites and noticed that even now, you can't find a stand alone Ryzen 7640HS or 7840HS laptop with integrated graphics, all of them have a dedicated gpu added on... seems strange to me when the integrated gpu on these 4nm Zen 4 APU's are so good.

Any thoughts why this is?

 

[tabascosauz]

The thin-and-lights don't use -HS anyway (outside of high performance exceptions like Flow X13). They wait for the -U to release, and so far it looks like -U availability is just delayed and/or bad. iirc Rembrandt was much the same as to first debuting in gaming laptops with higher TDP parts.

I remember a previous news thread where I talked about general APU lateness. There are new Zenbook OLED releases but most of them take the cheap/lazy way out with 7030 or 7035. Lenovo's Gen4 AMD thinkpads are still AWOL while their Gen4 Intel have been out for a while. The new Zenbook S13 OLED still hasn't shown up even though parts of the previous 6800U product page were edited months ago as 7040U. Dragonfly Pro already "got" 7000 series with Rembrandt-R. Acer's Phoenix Swift 16 looks like it's no different; the page is 7040U but the actual products for sale are 6800U. Then there's Framework, who knows if they'll even ship Phoenix before 2024.

Add to that the fact that since last gen AMD believes its 12CU APUs are on a different, premium tier now, so it's essentially impossible to have high end Phoenix in a budget laptop. The breadth of the 7000 lineup is all the evidence you need. $$$$? 7040. No $$$$? 7035/7030/7020.

Aside from the default power/thermals, -HS products in previous generations also had their own premium connotations (in laptops), so -U has a better chance of making it into less-than-flagship products.

 

[Space Lynx]

Still seems like a missed opportunity from AMD, as the rog ally has shown this chip to be amazing for gaming. Dell I think has a 7640hs and rtx 3050 for 800 bucks, so they could prob shave that down to 600 without the dedicated gpu. Add 50 more for a better battery that get 15 hours, and you are looking at something 100 cheaper than a MacBook m1 with 3 hrs worse battery life but better gaming capabilities. Truly a missed opportunity to make some gains in the lightweight laptop market. But what do I know, I don't make 6 figures in a cushy amd marketing job, idiots the whole lot of them, lol

 

[tabascosauz]

Still seems like a missed opportunity from AMD, as the rog ally has shown this chip to be amazing for gaming. Dell I think has a 7640hs and rtx 3050 for 800 bucks, so they could prob shave that down to 600 without the dedicated gpu. Add 50 more for a better battery that get 15 hours, and you are looking at something 100 cheaper than a MacBook m1 with 3 hrs worse battery life but better gaming capabilities. Truly a missed opportunity to make some gains in the lightweight laptop market. But what do I know, I don't make 6 figures in a cushy amd marketing job, idiots the whole lot of them, lol

Dell is firmly in Intel land, so they only allow Ryzen in their cheaper Inspiron or gaming line. Anything that would truly benefit from Phoenix (ie. XPS 13/15, Inspiron Plus) is forever off limits, and Phoenix cost would probably ruin the price of cheap Inspiron.

Rembrandt/Phoenix Ryzen 7 and 9 ultrabooks are so outrageously expensive anyways, it makes sense to just find a thinner gaming laptop that has a MUX and run it with dGPU disabled most of the time. That's pretty much exactly what the G14 and Flow X13 are for, 2022 models and later (not 100% sure about X13 2023). You can get idle power down to about 5-8W which gives respectable runtimes on the generally bigger battery.

More concerning is that some Phoenix designs come with single channel DDR5 out of the box; doesn't matter for dGPU and better for upgradability (since you can upgrade to double the capacity), but trashes iGPU performance until you actually upgrade.

On that note, maybe the shortage is something to do with LPDDR5 - all the available Phoenix laptops are DDR5 (SO-DIMM). Ultrabooks favour the same LPDDR5(x) implementation as the handhelds.

 

[Space Lynx]

Well, I just mean AMD in general is missing a chance here for something great. They have teamed up in recent years with ASUS to make liquid metal laptops that sell only at Best Buy for example, and now the RoG Ally as well, so they could have done something similar here with the 7640HS and bring it in at an affordable price, AMD and ASUS aren't playing by the industry rules anymore with their back scratching and working with Best Buy. It's just a shame to see their innovation fall flat on their most exciting chip in ages.

 

[tabascosauz]

Well, I just mean AMD in general is missing a chance here for something great. They have teamed up in recent years with ASUS to make liquid metal laptops that sell only at Best Buy for example, and now the RoG Ally as well, so they could have done something similar here with the 7640HS and bring it in at an affordable price, AMD and ASUS aren't playing by the industry rules anymore with their back scratching and working with Best Buy. It's just a shame to see their innovation fall flat on their most exciting chip in ages.

Which laptop is a BB-exclusive? iirc most ROGs have moved to LM after 2022. Early on there were a lot of complaints about LM application but seems to be better now that it's all machine-applied.

LM is good but I'm still dreading the inevitable repaste on mine in a year or two.

Perhaps Phoenix problems are still supply related? Out of all the distinct 7000 families only Phoenix/Phoenix-2 are actually new silicon on N4, and the only stuff that seems to be scarce. Everything else is recycled stuff on N5/N6/N7, including Dragon Range which is just binned desktop stuff. Would explain why they went to such lengths to save die space with Phoenix-2 even though Phoenix itself isn't particularly big compared to predecessors.

7640HS is a good choice, the 8CU iGPU is the real hot topic this time around. Near-680M performance in some cases.

 

[Space Lynx]

Which laptop is a BB-exclusive? iirc most ROGs have moved to LM after 2022. Early on there were a lot of complaints about LM application but seems to be better now that it's all machine-applied.

LM is good but I'm still dreading the inevitable repaste on mine in a year or two.

Perhaps Phoenix problems are still supply related? Out of all the distinct 7000 families only Phoenix/Phoenix-2 are actually new silicon on N4, and the only stuff that seems to be scarce. Everything else is recycled stuff on N5/N6/N7, including Dragon Range which is just binned desktop stuff. Would explain why they went to such lengths to save die space with Phoenix-2 even though Phoenix itself isn't particularly big compared to predecessors.

7640HS is a good choice, the 8CU iGPU is the real hot topic this time around. Near-680M performance in some cases.

Not sure if it's still true today, but early on the 6800m dedicated amd gpu laptops were best buy exclusive, I believe they still are and they only made one model with that dedicated gpu. That was early on though, things may have changed now.

I don't think it's supply related, I see loads of 7840hs with expensive dedicated gpus on every major site, just a missed opportunity imo cause those are collecting dust and probably not selling well

Why would you repaste LM.... It never dries.

 

[Selaya]

wait i thought they chopped down the 7640 good w/ like only 4 CUs left?

 

[Space Lynx]

wait i thought they chopped down the 7640 good w/ like only 4 CUs left?

No it's a 6 core cpu with similar igpu as the 8 core variant, I looked at the ryzen spec page earlier today

 

[Selaya]

AMD Radeon 760M Specs

AMD Phoenix, 2599 MHz, 512 Cores, 32 TMUs, 16 ROPs

www.techpowerup.com

this is all i can find, and that's a 6CU one (down from the 780m's 12CU)
so unless theres a 770m or something ...

 

[tabascosauz]

AMD Radeon 760M Specs

AMD Phoenix, 2599 MHz, 512 Cores, 32 TMUs, 16 ROPs

www.techpowerup.com

this is all i can find, and that's a 6CU one (down from the 780m's 12CU)
so unless theres a 770m or something ...

I don't think the GPU database is accurate. 660M was 6CU. 760M is 8CU.

Hence why 760M is more interesting, 680M vs 780M is just 300-500MHz but the jump in 2 CUs + 700MHz is very noticeable for 660M vs 760M, former is barely-Vega 8 compared to latter almost-680M.

Not sure if it's still true today, but early on the 6800m dedicated amd gpu laptops were best buy exclusive, I believe they still are and they only made one model with that dedicated gpu. That was early on though, things may have changed now.

I don't think it's supply related, I see loads of 7840hs with expensive dedicated gpus on every major site, just a missed opportunity imo cause those are collecting dust and probably not selling well

Why would you repaste LM.... It never dries.

Having to repaste Asus LM after a year or two is pretty common. The LM seems to "migrate" and leave spots of bad coverage, if that makes sense. Replacing LM with PTM7950 is probably the most popular upgrade after RAM.

Those high end gaming laptops also have the fattest margins which they obviously want. Like I've already said a bunch of times, AMD is not willing to sell you a good bang-for-buck Phoenix laptop, it's their premium product now. -HS and -HX should always be the top bin too (apart from Z1 Extreme this time around), so only worse dies are relegated to 6-core and -U, both of which are much rarer.

 

[Selaya]

interesting. i definitely read somewhere that theres a 2nd silicon being made for the 6-core sku w/ a drastically cut-down igp, but that might've been the 7540? that seems to come w/ the 740m, which'd be a 4CU part according to the database?
that'd make more sense then ...

 

[tabascosauz]

interesting. i definitely read somewhere that theres a 2nd silicon being made for the 6-core sku w/ a drastically cut-down igp, but that might've been the 7540? that seems to come w/ the 740m, which'd be a 4CU part according to the database?
that'd make more sense then ...

There is a 7540 part speculated to be Phoenix-2, but all the 7640 series are regular 6-core 8CU parts. Rembrandt was 12/6CU, Phoenix is 12/8/4CU.

Assuming 700M layout is as AMD's slides show near-identical to 600M, logically 6CU is the easy way to cut it down, but who knows since photos and info are so scarce.

 

[Space Lynx]

I understand all of your logic @tabascosauz my opinion is just that it was a mistake for AMD, a missed opportunity. RoG Ally has this chip and costs $699, I wouldn't be surprised for that same price if they could have stuck it in a 18 hr battery life laptop, no dedicated gpu, and competed head to head with macbooks while undercutting their price severely.

I am trying to imagine who buys a dedicated gpu laptop, then uses the ingrated apu graphics for gaming while not plugged in, maybe 5% of overall entire usage time? when not plugged it will be used for note taking for most people or basic online research/work, most people would prefer lighter/thinner/portable, but have the capability of the RoG Ally in a work laptop / entertainment hybrid.

I just think AMD's logic is flawed regarding this gpu, they had a chance to wedge into a niche market and blew it. I honestly would have bought one, but I am not going to bother now, my money will most likely go to a budget Intel laptop as they seem to offer me more bang for buck as far as raw speed goes. I tested some AMD 7520u laptops at microcenter and they were sluggish, pretty sad their 2023 line up still runs slow for budget work users.

 

[Fouquin]

Then there's Framework, who knows if they'll even ship Phoenix before 2024.

I sure hope so, my receipt for the FW16 says shipping Q4 2023 on it, and I hope those that ordered their FW13 with Phoenix APUs are getting their machines within the next few weeks.

 

[Space Lynx]

I sure hope so, my receipt for the FW16 says shipping Q4 2023 on it, and I hope those that ordered their FW13 with Phoenix APUs are getting their machines within the next few weeks.

while I applaud framework for what they are doing, if I am going to spend that much money I might as well just get the m3 macbook air coming out in October for a similar price, that will easily last me 10+ years since 3nm m3 chip is way overkill for what i would be using it for

 

[tabascosauz]

I understand all of your logic @tabascosauz my opinion is just that it was a mistake for AMD, a missed opportunity. RoG Ally has this chip and costs $699, I wouldn't be surprised for that same price if they could have stuck it in a 18 hr battery life laptop, no dedicated gpu, and competed head to head with macbooks while undercutting their price severely.

I am trying to imagine who buys a dedicated gpu laptop, then uses the ingrated apu graphics for gaming while not plugged in, maybe 5% of overall entire usage time? when not plugged it will be used for note taking for most people or basic online research/work, most people would prefer lighter/thinner/portable, but have the capability of the RoG Ally in a work laptop / entertainment hybrid.

I just think AMD's logic is flawed regarding this gpu, they had a chance to wedge into a niche market and blew it. I honestly would have bought one, but I am not going to bother now, my money will most likely go to a budget Intel laptop as they seem to offer me more bang for buck as far as raw speed goes. I tested some AMD 7520u laptops at microcenter and they were sluggish, pretty sad their 2023 line up still runs slow for budget work users.

For sure, I don't disagree. In my usage I don't usually use the dGPU either. 12CU does plenty and doesn't consume 30W at idle. To be fair to AMD and laptop makers, something competitive with Macbooks needs to have a certain level of build quality and attention to other specs so $700 is still a tough call, but yes 7035/7040U still commands way too much of a premium for no reason.

Prices being the way they are I would probably stay away from Mendocino (7020) as it's basically Athlon-level hardware and Zen 2 in 2023. I've recently seen some Zenbook 14 and 15 with 7030U come down to the $600-700usd equivalent range, it is rebranded Cezanne but 6 or 8 core Zen 3 is still plenty, and they have some real nice 90Hz/120Hz OLED screens and build quality as expected of a Zenbook.

I can appreciate that budget Intel is easier to find, but usually (for Barcelo/Rembrandt/Phoenix APUs) AMD is able to get more out of the same battery size than Intel. Gen2 and Gen3 Thinkpads have been a good illustration of that point over the past few years. Both Intel and AMD idle well, but 12th/13th gen -P SKUs are very power-hungry under load (while performance on 12th/13th -U remains simply bad).

I sure hope so, my receipt for the FW16 says shipping Q4 2023 on it, and I hope those that ordered their FW13 with Phoenix APUs are getting their machines within the next few weeks.

I hope you get yours too - 7040HS has been out a while. It's 7040U that is still nowhere to be found. Framework could very well be the first, but I highly doubt they'll beat the likes of Asus and Lenovo.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

In my country has first offers with 7840U and only integrated graphics(Radeon 780M) but lowest price in USD is >$1400.

 

[tabascosauz]

while I applaud framework for what they are doing, if I am going to spend that much money I might as well just get the m3 macbook air coming out in October for a similar price, that will easily last me 10+ years since 3nm m3 chip is way overkill for what i would be using it for

In my country has first offers with 7840U and only integrated graphics(Radeon 780M) but lowest price in USD is >$1400.

I must have missed it - if you want it, there's 19h left on the 7840U Swift 16. $999 at BB

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/acer-swift-edge-16-16-3-2k-120hz-oled-laptop-amd-ryzen-7-7840u-with-16gb-lpddr5-memory-1tb-pcie-gen-4-ssd-olivine-black/6546242.p?skuId=6546242

iirc reviews were kinda lukewarm and user reviews probably mixed in with its 6800U predecessor, but it exists and it's not a horrible price

 

[Space Lynx]

I must have missed it - if you want it, there's 19h left on the 7840U Swift 16. $999 at BB

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/acer-swift-edge-16-16-3-2k-120hz-oled-laptop-amd-ryzen-7-7840u-with-16gb-lpddr5-memory-1tb-pcie-gen-4-ssd-olivine-black/6546242.p?skuId=6546242

iirc reviews were kinda lukewarm and user reviews probably mixed in with its 6800U predecessor, but it exists and it's not a horrible price

damn nice find... i might actually do this. checks a lot of boxes for me at a decent price. and i could enjoy some good movie watching when traveling to boot...

 

[tabascosauz]

damn nice find... i might actually do this. checks a lot of boxes for me at a decent price. and i could enjoy some good movie watching when traveling to boot...

It looks like your question was just in time - the Gen4 Phoenix laptops are starting to hit Lenovo as well now. I guess supply is finally catching up. P14 Gen4 with the 7840U for about $1300usd. Interestingly enough, the lower SKU has the 7540U which might be the first Phoenix-2 product I've seen

 

[TumbleGeorge]

I must have missed it - if you want it, there's 19h left on the 7840U Swift 16. $999 at BB

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/acer-swift-edge-16-16-3-2k-120hz-oled-laptop-amd-ryzen-7-7840u-with-16gb-lpddr5-memory-1tb-pcie-gen-4-ssd-olivine-black/6546242.p?skuId=6546242

iirc reviews were kinda lukewarm and user reviews probably mixed in with its 6800U predecessor, but it exists and it's not a horrible price

There is no legal way for that to remain the price for me. I will have to pay various customs fees for EU import and taxes in my country. It will still be a little cheaper than the cost of buying from local shop, but not so much that it's worth it.

 

[tabascosauz]

There is no legal way for that to remain the price for me. I will have to pay various customs fees for EU import and taxes in my country. It will still be a little cheaper than the cost of buying from local shop, but not so much that it's worth it.

It was just to give lynx a heads up being in the US. I wasn't previously aware that the Swift is now available.

The SKU you linked is the 32GB one, MSRP seems reasonable in relation to the MSRP of the 16GB one ($1300). It is unfortunate not being in the US, things like pricing and availability are similar here.

 

[Phoenix Nano]

I have looked at several websites and noticed that even now, you can't find a stand alone Ryzen 7640HS or 7840HS laptop with integrated graphics, all of them have a dedicated gpu added on... seems strange to me when the integrated gpu on these 4nm Zen 4 APU's are so good.

Any thoughts why this is?

This! Im on the lookout for a laptop preferably under $900 with a 7840HS CPU because of the better Radeon IGPU
Otherwise im getting a i7-13700H which is better but has worse IGPU

Its so annoying OEMs dont give us the choice to go without dedicated graphics, the whole point of Phoenix is how good their IGPU is and that goes to waste with a dedicated GPU so why even bother going AMD at that point?

The thin-and-lights don't use -HS anyway (outside of high performance exceptions like Flow X13). They wait for the -U to release, and so far it looks like -U availability is just delayed and/or bad. iirc Rembrandt was much the same as to first debuting in gaming laptops with higher TDP parts.

I remember a previous news thread where I talked about general APU lateness. There are new Zenbook OLED releases but most of them take the cheap/lazy way out with 7030 or 7035. Lenovo's Gen4 AMD thinkpads are still AWOL while their Gen4 Intel have been out for a while. The new Zenbook S13 OLED still hasn't shown up even though parts of the previous 6800U product page were edited months ago as 7040U. Dragonfly Pro already "got" 7000 series with Rembrandt-R. Acer's Phoenix Swift 16 looks like it's no different; the page is 7040U but the actual products for sale are 6800U. Then there's Framework, who knows if they'll even ship Phoenix before 2024.

Add to that the fact that since last gen AMD believes its 12CU APUs are on a different, premium tier now, so it's essentially impossible to have high end Phoenix in a budget laptop. The breadth of the 7000 lineup is all the evidence you need. $$$$? 7040. No $$$$? 7035/7030/7020.

Aside from the default power/thermals, -HS products in previous generations also had their own premium connotations (in laptops), so -U has a better chance of making it into less-than-flagship products.

I dont know if im convinced of that when you can get Laptops with i7-13700H without discrete graphics
Its even more egregious when you consider how good Phoenix iGPU is and how it goes to waste with a dedicated graphics, the main selling point of AMD CPUs for laptops for me is higher energy efficiency and better integrated graphics compared to intel

So it seems very counter intuitive to offer much better iGPU but youre forced to buy a discrete graphics to go with it

Its also very apparent when you see the Pro variants of 7040 selling in workstation Laptops for 2k+ without dedicated graphics, it seems to me they dont want to sell Zen 4 laptops below $1000 until they get rid of all the unwanted Zen 3 stock

"The Phoenix processors target the mainstream notebook segment, feature an AI accelerator branded as "Ryzen AI", similar to Apple's Neural Engine, and are of a monolithic chip design, while the Dragon Range processors target the high-end segment"

Phoenix is also has the category of thin and light mobile processors
While Dragon Range is labeled as high-end mobile processors

It baffles me why they force Phoenix configurations with dedicated graphics specially considering they offer more power hungry H class i7 CPUs that have much worse iGPU without discrete graphics.

Its just dumb all around and maybe even anti consumer by forcing a discrete GPU that we dont want or dont need when the 780M iGPU is more than capable and would go to waste otherwise

 

[tabascosauz]

This! Im on the lookout for a laptop preferably under $900 with a 7840HS CPU because of the better Radeon IGPU
Otherwise im getting a i7-13700H which is better but has worse IGPU

Its so annoying OEMs dont give us the choice to go without dedicated graphics, the whole point of Phoenix is how good their IGPU is and that goes to waste with a dedicated GPU so why even bother going AMD at that point?

I dont know if im convinced of that when you can get Laptops with i7-13700H without discrete graphics
Its even more egregious when you consider how good Phoenix iGPU is and how it goes to waste with a dedicated graphics, the main selling point of AMD CPUs for laptops for me is higher energy efficiency and better integrated graphics compared to intel

So it seems very counter intuitive to offer much better iGPU but youre forced to buy a discrete graphics to go with it

Its also very apparent when you see the Pro variants of 7040 selling in workstation Laptops for 2k+ without dedicated graphics, it seems to me they dont want to sell Zen 4 laptops below $1000 until they get rid of all the unwanted Zen 3 stock

Maybe I came off as sounding like I'm defending AMD's strategy. If it's not clear, no, and you're preaching to the converted.

The whole point of 7035 and 7030 is to cement the fact that AMD will continue to do anything in its power to keep Phoenix out of the affordable market. I don't think there's anyone here that wants to see things continue like this, but this is how it's been for a while now. 12CU is off limits to non-"premium" designs according to AMD. Maybe we can hope for a dramatic reversal of their strategy to eliminate rebrands from 7000 family, or a significant departure in next gen 8000 strategy.

Dragon Range is limited to a very specific subset of high end, high power gaming laptops due to its near-desktop level idle power. It occupies an entirely different segment compared to Phoenix. Gaming laptops don't all look like Alienwares: thinner gaming laptops like G14 won't be seeing Dragon Range unless it improves significantly in that respect.

AMD has come a long way but they still (unfortunately) playing second fiddle. They still need to work hard for those design wins (at least, ones that use 7040). Stands to reason that they would also be discerning as to what sorts of designs can get Phoenix, to represent the product family in the best possible way. Cuts both ways, sadly.

"The Phoenix processors target the mainstream notebook segment, feature an AI accelerator branded as "Ryzen AI", similar to Apple's Neural Engine, and are of a monolithic chip design, while the Dragon Range processors target the high-end segment"

AMD marketing can say whatever they want, it's AMD marketing.