Blocking DLSS

[JustBenching]

And the last 3 laptops I bough were Intel. Must be nice living in that head space where you can cook so much stuff up so easily!

So? Did I accuse you of Intel electrocuting your goldfish?

 

[Frick]

I'm buying Intel nvidia from now on. Problem solved.

I really HATE whataboutism, but if you will never buy AMD again speficically because of this, that they crossed a line you cannt accept, you can't really buy hardware. This line has been crossed before.

 

[JustBenching]

It was GPP ~

And that's the last time I reply to you, good luck with your BS & waving off how much more you can spend than others!

There is nothing wrong with GPP. Do you realize what gpp is? Do you understand that companies themselves have been doing it for DECADES on their own to differentiate their products?

Have you ever had an Asus crosshair motherboard? I had one 15 years ago. You know that's the amd version of the Asus hero which was Intel's? Have you heard of the Asus g series laptops? Those were exclusively amd vs the scar lineup that was exclusively intel.

The only reason the whole outcry happened is cause nvidia was involved. Absolutely nothing wrong with GPP and an amd user would lose absolutely NOTHING if it had gone through. Unlike the bs that amd is pulling.

I really HATE whataboutism, but if you will never buy AMD again speficically because of this, that they crossed a line you cannt accept, you can't really buy hardware. This line has been crossed before.

You know that Intel was actually found innocent? They won the case in EU a couple of years ago.

 

[Vya Domus]

That's not the topic of this thread, it's whataboutism that's attempting to move the goalposts. I've already reported one of your posts here as completely unconstructive trolling - if you can't or won't honestly discuss the topic at hand, remove yourself.

You knock yourself out. This thread is clearly troll bait for something that is still, against all the cries of fanboys, not proven. You expect a constructive discussion over something that's still purely speculation ? Good luck man, maybe consider going somewhere else.

 

[Frick]

You know that Intel was actually found innocent? They won the case in EU a couple of years ago.

Innocent = legal, but so is what AMD has done here.

 

[AusWolf]

If $500 GPUs struggle to keep to 60fps @ 1080p I'd say those things are the future. No GPU can do Starfield @ 1080p/144fps native (as per this video anyway). Higher resolution monitors becomes the norm, especially if you look at larger monitors. My 4k monitor was cheaper than the 1440p monitors I was looking at.

If you rely on DLSS/FSR to run a game at 1080p, then maybe it's either time to upgrade, or the game is badly optimised. This is a way bigger issue than having only FSR and no DLSS, imo.

let me correct that:
So thanks to AMD's business practices, we have no choice but to use a significantly worse technology in every way that every GPU supports and block the implementation of a better one besides AMDs own, because AMD is butthurt because nobody buys their crappy RDNA3 GPUs. Oh my god, what a terrible world we live in! #firstworldproblems

Significantly worse... yeah, right...

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Significantly worse... yeah, right...

At 1080p and 1440p and even more so at lower quality settings that it true. It's really only ok at 4k in it's quality mode.

 

[R0H1T]

Innocent = legal, but so is what AMD has done here.

Except AMD only settled in 2008-09(remember what happened back then?) probably because they were in massive debt after buying ATI, & who pays over a billion dollars to their competitor if they're innocent? Also Intel lost everywhere outside the US IIRC ~ Japan, SK(?) & the EU. All those lawsuits were brought on by the respective govts! I'm surprised even after nearly 2 decades people are trying to whitewash facts

 

[AusWolf]

At 1080p and 1440p and even more so at lower quality settings that it true. It's really only ok at 4k in it's quality mode.

I tried DLSS in Cyberpunk, and FSR in God of War. I didn't see much difference... as a matter of fact, FSR in God of War seemed a bit more tolerable (although, I still prefer to use neither).

 

[Frick]

If you rely on DLSS/FSR to run a game at 1080p, then maybe it's either time to upgrade, or the game is badly optimised. This is a way bigger issue than having only FSR and no DLSS, imo.

Upgrade to a $1000 GPU to run a game at 1080p? OR I can use the technology that is being developed in concurrence with the massive AI stuff that the rest of the tech industry is all about to get more frames. Badly optimised games is a fact of life. In a utopian world every game would be hand compiled by the end users to fit their specific machines, but that is not what things are, we are getting ports and victims or late stage capitalism and a universal enshittification of reality that nothing short of a) bloody revolution or b) divine intervention will solve.

Except AMD only settled in 2008(remember what happened back then?) probably because they were in massive debt after buying ATI, & who pays over a billion dollars to their competitor if they're innocent? Also Intel lost everywhere outside the US IIRC ~ Japan, SK(?) & the EU. All those lawsuits were brought on by the respective govts! I'm surprised even after nearly 2 decades people are trying to whitewash facts

Wait what? "In November 2009, Intel agreed to pay AMD $1.25 billion as part of a deal to settle all outstanding legal disputes between the two companies." Also this.

 

[AusWolf]

Upgrade to a $1000 GPU to run a game at 1080p? OR I can use the technology that is being developed in concurrence with the massive AI stuff that the rest of the tech industry is all about to get more frames. Badly optimised games is a fact of life. In a utopian world every game would be hand compiled by the end users to fit their specific machines, but that is not what things are, we are getting ports and victims or late stage capitalism and a universal enshittification of reality that nothing short of a) bloody revolution or b) divine intervention will solve.

Well, both DLSS and FSR offer questionable quality at 1080p, so if you need a $1000 GPU to run a game without enabling them, that is the game devs' fault, not the fact that the game only has one of the technologies that make your image blurry as heck for some extra frames. No one should rely on upscaling at 1080p, because it's terrible. Period.

 

[R0H1T]

Wait what? "In November 2009, Intel agreed to pay AMD $1.25 billion as part of a deal to settle all outstanding legal disputes between the two companies."

AMD settled because they needed cash fast, how much do they you think they'd have gotten if this went in front of a jury? Pure speculation ~ probably 2x if not more? And again if Intel was innocent why did they settle? Companies settle because they don't want to be found guilty/admit guilt & they don't have to pay bigger fines! Intel never admitted guilt & that's what the main point was for them, if they weren't they should ask for a full refund of their legal fees from their law firm back then.

They were found guilty for the same stuff outside US in multiple jurisdictions!

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Well, both DLSS and FSR offer questionable quality at 1080p, so if you need a $1000 GPU to run a game without enabling them, that is the game devs' fault, not the fact that it only has one of the technologies that make your image blurry as heck for some extra frames. No one should rely on upscaling at 1080p, because it's terrible. Period.

I agree to an extent, on my 3050ti 13 inch laptop that has a 1920x1200 screen DLSS quality works pretty well.

I tried DLSS in Cyberpunk, and FSR in God of War. I didn't see much difference... as a matter of fact, FSR in God of War seemed a bit more tolerable (although, I still prefer to use neither).

Maybe it's been updated but when first implemented FSR had terrible dissoclussion artifacts in GOW. I also think FSR was broken by a recent update in CP2077 and you need a mod to fix it.

 

[nguyen]

hmm...the sooner we move away from whataboutism maybe AMD will stop blocking progress
Like this

Can't believe people actually supporting the removal of competing techs, instead of forcing AMD to spend that sponsorship money into making better tech

 

[Frick]

Well, both DLSS and FSR offer questionable quality at 1080p, so if you need a $1000 GPU to run a game without enabling them, that is the game devs' fault, not the fact that it only has one of the technologies that make your image blurry as heck for some extra frames. No one should rely on upscaling at 1080p, because it's terrible. Period.

Sure it is the devs faults (and the economic reality they exist in), but so what? It's a feedback loop: Poorly optimised games makes using tech to "artificially" increase performance needed and so there is less interest to optimise games because that can be alleviated by that tech.

AMD settled because they needed cash fast, how much do they you think they'd have gotten if this went in front of a jury? Pure speculation ~ probably 2x if not more? And again if Intel was innocent why did they settle? Companies settle because the don't want to be found guilty & they don't have to pay bigger fines! Intel never admitted guilt & that's what the main point was for them, if they weren't they should ask for a full refund of their legal fees from their law firm back then.

Look at the Arstechnica article. "Sometimes the wheels of justice turn very slowly. A €1.06 billion ($1.2 billion) fine levied against Intel back in 2009 by the European Commission has been wiped out. In a press release announcing the ruling (PDF) handed down on Wednesday morning, the General Court of the European Union said the financial assumption underlying the fine was based on faulty economic analysis." So sure, it might have been "illegal", but it was found to not be, but that was not the point, it was the action of locking a competitor out, which is what they did, and AMD has done now.

 

[AusWolf]

I agree to an extent, on my 3050ti 13 inch laptop that has a 1920x1200 screen DLSS quality works pretty well.

Probably because it's 13-inch. I wouldn't want it on my 24-inch monitor, though.

Maybe it's been updated but when first implemented FSR had terrible dissoclussion artifacts in GOW. I also think FSR was broken by a recent update in CP2077 and you need a mod to fix it.

Probably, because I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Probably because it's 13-inch. I wouldn't want it on my 24-inch monitor, though.


Probably, because I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.

To be fair i wouldn't want to use 1080 period on anything larget than a 24 inch monitor but would still prefer 1440p

 

[AusWolf]

Sure it is the devs faults (and the economic reality they exist in), but so what? It's a feedback loop: Poorly optimised games makes using tech to "artificially" increase performance needed and so there is less interest to optimise games because that can be alleviated by that tech.

I mean, if we really have to point fingers, let's do it for poor optimisation, and not for no DLSS support that you shouldn't even rely on in the first place.

To be fair i wouldn't want to use 1080 period on anything larget than a 24 inch monitor but would still prefer 1440p

That's fair enough. I've had this monitor since 2017, and I'm definitely not gonna upgrade anytime soon considering how GPU-hungry modern games are.

 

[JustBenching]

Except AMD only settled in 2008-09(remember what happened back then?) probably because they were in massive debt after buying ATI, & who pays over a billion dollars to their competitor if they're innocent? Also Intel lost everywhere outside the US IIRC ~ Japan, SK(?) & the EU. All those lawsuits were brought on by the respective govts! I'm surprised even after nearly 2 decades people are trying to whitewash facts

You are accusing people of whitewashing facts when you flat out lie about them. Priceless. Here are some facts for you. Try not to whitewash them

Intel scores major win as court scraps $1.2 bln EU antitrust fine

Intel on Wednesday won its fight against a 1.06-billion-euro ($1.2 billion) EU antitrust fine that the U.S. chipmaker was handed 12 years ago for stifling a rival, in a major setback for EU antitrust regulators.

www.reuters.com

 

[R0H1T]

Look at the Arstechnica article. "Sometimes the wheels of justice turn very slowly. A €1.06 billion ($1.2 billion) fine levied against Intel back in 2009 by the European Commission has been wiped out. In a press release announcing the ruling (PDF) handed down on Wednesday morning, the General Court of the European Union said the financial assumption underlying the fine was based on faulty economic analysis." So sure, it might have been "illegal", but it was found to not be, but that was not the point, it was the action of locking a competitor out, which is what they did, and AMD has done now.

Let's backup a little bit, Intel have appealed against the fines IIRC not the actual findings which was ~

In 2005, the Japan Fair Trade Commission issued Intel a cease and desist order. On June 4, 2008, Korea Fair Trade Commission fined Intel US$25.4 million for giving Samsung rebates to not use AMD processors. Some of the manufacturers involved in the case were Dell, HP, Gateway, Acer, Fujitsu, Sony, Toshiba, and Hitachi.

In May 2009, the European Commissioner for Competition, Neelie Kroes, fined Intel a record $1.45 billion and ordered it to end its customer rebate program.

And this happened worldwide, including in India. Just that AMD couldn't litigate against them everywhere in the world since they both were headquartered in the US.

 

[JustBenching]

Innocent = legal, but so is what AMD has done here.

Never said it's illegal. Amd is doing something that has an impact on me as a consumer, on their competitors and on the games themselves. What intel did, according to the EU courts at least HD no impact on anyone, cause even if they were indeed bribing dell etc. Amd did not have the capacity to fullfil demand regardless.

 

[Frick]

Let's backup a little bit, Intel have appealed against the fines IIRC not the actual findings which was ~

Again, not the point. @fevgatos had a problem with AMD doing this with Starfield (if that is what happened, we have no facts) and as a result he (I'm assuming) would no longer purchase any AMD stuff. I pointed out if that was the line ("encourage" or "make" someone use their tech exclusively) he'd have a hard time buying hardware.

 

[the54thvoid]

This thread is bullshit. A lot of the behaviour is a disgrace. I've got reports out my ears from people, then pop in only to see same people have then replied with BS against the post they reported.

Grow up people. Go outside and have a walk, or a wheel. Do something other than fixate over ways you can try and belittle others in our TPU community.

Thread closed, not for the subject (which is worthy of debate) but because many posters aren't capable of civility.

 

[Mussels]

Time? What time? A guy did it from his basement in a single day. That's bs frankly.

Exactly my point.

That little time was spent on this - people make their parts independent of each other (textures, voice lines, animators etc) and it's all packages to be assembled later.
The final product of these console games doesn't seem to actually GET tested these days - they skip the final QA, let community feedback provide it and only then do they pay someone to fix the top issues.

Look at games not out to make quick buck and how they fix things instead - BG3 (DLSS, FSR, performance patches multiple times in launch week after a year long public beta)

Deep Rock Galactic: Game has FSR, FSR2 and DLSS, with FSR2 looking worse than FSR and DLSS With artifacting for a long, long time.
When asked on a live devstream the devs simply answered that they installed them with the default settings and only ONE of the 6 person dev team actually plays the game who has even the faintest idea how that tech works, despite four of them all playing on PC live streams weekly. They have 32 total employees, and you bet none of them have days or weeks spare to sit down and test and finetune FSR, FSR2 and DLSS on all the GPU and resolution combinations out there - they believe that if AMD or nvidia want it done better, that they should provide better tools for it.

FSR2 works best with known and static base and output resolutions, because that's what the consoles use. Nvidia used their AI stuff to math that out in advance, so they have a little less guesswork on that side. Neither AMD nor Nvidia keep sending updates out to companies with newer versions of these tools - theres no easy person to blame. Is it AMD/Nvidia/Intels fault? The game devs? Should it be in drivers, like SLI profiles were?

I'm well aware of how it all works because I made my own DLSS mod for DRG to unlock DLSS on all GPUs, and use it on my GTX 1080 to play DRG in 4k - since that mod literally just uses FSR2 (and the starfield mod is THE EXACT SAME MOD) it's clear that FSR2 can actually do all the same things as DLSS, the only differences was in the default scaling and sharpening settings - and those are copy pasted with the DLL you use.

What about the other 22 out of 27 amd sponsored games that don't have dlss?

As for the bold part, that's pure bullshit. The implication is that AMD block them, when it's actually that when sponsored by Nvidia you're REQUIRED to.
They force DLSS, frame gen and RTX in every title possible to try and make gamers want to buy nvidia over AMD.

What about the games that already had dlss but was removed after amd sponsorship?

All 3 of them?
Three studios removed DLSS support after receiving AMD sponsorship - Xfire

Because they wanted FSR for the consoles and focused their time on a universal, cross-platform solution?

The entire source of that was someone who was misquoted and deleted his tweet and explained how he was being misquoted, but it's the internet so that doesn't reach people.

“Bethesda’s decision to use FSR is console leverage,” he explains. Starfield is also likely this year’s biggest Xbox game, and FSR runs on the AMD chips inside the Xbox Series X and S as well as competing graphics. Meanwhile, each version of Nvidia DLSS is exclusive to specific recent generations of Nvidia GPU.

AMD claims there’s nothing stopping Starfield from adding Nvidia DLSS
AMD ask them to support FSR so that they work on modern consoles, or they wouldn't include THAT, either.
There is no motivation to add DLSS to a game, but there is motivation for console games to support FSR.
DLSS is a fraction of a fraction of their users - windows gamers with modern Nvidia cards playing their game vs every single console sale.


My first google result had this, on the game devs being lazy.
TPU's DLSS/FSR comparisons are always chaotic with many games having only one method actually working properly (and it's not always DLSS) with default sharpening values usually way off the mark, at the default provided in the source SDK.

Just like here on TPU we have a list of DLSS .dll files because game devs are too lazy to even update those.


Edit sorry @the54thvoid , didnt see the lock.