13700k - Gigabyte B760M DS3H MB - E-Cores running at half speed, Benchmarks at half expected?

[LightCC42]

I have a new Gigabyte B760M DS3H DDR4 Motherboard and i7-13700k CPU. The long and short of it is I appear to be getting half or less of the benchmark values I should be. System performance is stable at this point and the games I'm running work much better than the prior system I was using (both with same 3060 card), but it appears something in my bios config is broken or set wrong. I can set a pretty high undervolt (Core at -150 mV) but that may be because my config is messed up.

System info from XTU:

The E-Cores at least appear to be running at half the correct speed (see below), and when running either Cinebench or XTU Benchmark, I'm getting roughly half or less of the expected benchmark number.

• On XTU I just got 3604 Marks, and looking at comparison page others WITH MY SAME MOTHERBOARD (and no overclock) are at 8100-9700!!
• On Cinebench R23 various sites report 24k-30k for 13700/13700F to 13700K/KF for multi-core, I'm getting 12k-13k.

I found out quickly with Cinebench testing about thermal limits and needing undervolting, and then that these motherboard VRMs aren't great (ends up they hit thermal limit above 130-135W long-term even if the CPU package temp is fine). I'm using a combination of CPUID, ThrottleStop and XTU to monitor things.

I spent a lot of time figuring out I needed:

1. Latest bios (T16) that allows setting micro-code version back to 0x104
2. With 0x104 u-code, can set undervolts for both Core CPU and Ring Voltage and it actually uses the value (I tested a bunch and am stable at -150 mV (-165 is not) and -105 mV ring (-115 is not)
3. With 0x104 u-code, can enable CPU thermal limits and manually set the P1/P2 power limits (I set to 130 W P1 @ 24 seconds, and 175W P2 @ 2 seconds while at 100% CPU I'm hitting 160-165W), and removed clamping (what a horrid control design that is).
4. With 0x104 u-code, other settings are also available and finally able to be set directly via XTU or ThrottleStop (several additional voltage offsets, some ratios, current limits, power limits, etc.)
5. The above allowed setting the IccMax to above default 310 A (I set to 450 A). This basically gets rid of the "EDP Other" error message for CORE CPU, but I still get it on GPU and RING constantly (refreshes after 1-2 s).
6. I also set the load line to "Standard" or "Normal", which both appear to be the lowest slope/line on the chart (lower than the "Low" option). The bios doesn't allow setting the values directly, you can only set the enumerated setting, and "Power Saver" is not an option, which I've seen in some posts, presumably from older bioses. This appears to be required to allow room to undervolt given Intel's updates within the last year, though maybe with 0x104 it's not needed.

I mucked around with some other things, but whether I set everything back to defaults and just the above, or include other changes, I have the following issues:

1. Testing reports 3.4 MHz cpu in both Cinebench and XTU, not sure if this is correct as a base rate.
   • When looking at the XTU "Performance Per-Core Tuning" in the "Efficient Per-Core Tuning" section (on the right), all E-Cores are at the default of 42x, except E-Core 6, which is set to 34X, which matches the 3.4 MHz reported - coincidence?
2. When I swap from the E-Core "Ratio" tab to the "Monitors" tab, it shows all the E-Cores running at half speed (2.1 or 2.0 GHz). Same is true in THrottleStop if I scroll down to the real-time E-Cores.
   • In ThrottleStop, at idle, they will jump up above half-speed, but as soon as I jump into a multi-core benchmark, they jump to 2.1 GHz and lock at that rate.
   • CPUID shows the full-speed 4.2 GHz at low load and 4.0 GHz when power limited at 130 W, not the half rates.
   • All apps show 5.2-5.3 GHz for p-cores and 4.9-5.0 GHz when power limited. If that's true, should be getting much higher scores, even if e-cores are half speed, I think.

At this point, I'm not sure what to even try. Any thoughts? I can take pictures of the Bios if needed, or screenshots of XTU/CPUID/ThrottleStop... From searching I understand this may be the result of "Clock stretching", from too much of an undervolt (with CEP still enabled?), but not sure how to verify that or what settings to update to test with. I think I've searched for an found info on all the normal knobs to turn, and just have a bunch of bios and Throttle Stop settings that are acronyms I can't find info on..

 

[wolar]

That wattage seems rather low most likely enforces lower clocks due to that

 

[LightCC42]

That wattage seems rather low most likely enforces lower clocks due to that

I've seen others in that range (130W-160W), but I agree the underclock seems too large on the voltage side (which leads to the lower wattage).

That said, this could go in either direction - either the underclock is forcing the half frequency somehow (not enough voltage, etc.) or some other setting is forcing the lower clock first, and that is why I can have the higher undervoltage setting.

The messed up part is that other people with this exact CPU and motherboard don't seem to have this problem (3 other entries at the Intel site with all more than double the result in XTU bench). Are they not seeing the throttling I immediately got if I don't mess with the power limits and undervolting? I have tried with lower undervolt (like 90 mV on core and ring each), and I get a little higher bench, but not much.

 

[DarkDreams]

Performance degradation is the only way to verify clock stretching. Run it at stock without any undervolt (or even extra voltage if required) to see what results you get then.
Also full system specs would help, like what CPU cooler are you using and what PSU.
I recommend using hwInfo64 to check thermals, voltages and all other data useful for troubleshooting.
As a sidenote why does xtu report your 3060 having only 4 GB VRam?

 

[Hugis]

As a sidenote why does xtu report your 3060 having only 4 GB VRam?

My 4060ti also show 4GB

 

[LightCC42]

Performance degradation is the only way to verify clock stretching. Run it at stock without any undervolt (or even extra voltage if required) to see what results you get then.
Also full system specs would help, like what CPU cooler are you using and what PSU.
I recommend using hwInfo64 to check thermals, voltages and all other data useful for troubleshooting.
As a sidenote why does xtu report your 3060 having only 4 GB VRam?

I've tried that after posting - less undervolt, but it's a dance - if I completely remove it I just hit 100 oC within 6-8 seconds and it throttles (so I can't complete the benchmark).

However, with -90 mV on both Core and Ring Cinebench R23 came in 16k range rather than 12.6k, and that's with the clock dropping to 4.7-4.8 on turbo instead of 5.1 GHz. The e-cores were up from 2.1 to 2.6 GHz as well, after the 130 W limit was imposed.

This makes me think the E-core lower frequency is some kind of power limit.

 

[DarkDreams]

I've tried that after posting - less undervolt, but it's a dance - if I completely remove it I just hit 100 oC within 6-8 seconds and it throttles. However, with -90 mV on both Core and Ring it came in a significant bit higher, in 16k range rather than 12.6k, and that's with dropping about 500 MHz (5.3 to 4.8 on turbo), and the e-cores were up from 2.1 to 2.6 once 130 W limit was imposed.

Then you clearly have a cooling problem. Again what cpu cooler do you have?

 

[LightCC42]

Then you clearly have a cooling problem. Again what cpu cooler do you have?

It's a Vetroo V5 CPU Air Cooler with 5 Heat Pipes 120mm, with good thermal grease. I could have applied it poorly, but have done this multiple times before, pretty sure it's okay.

The cooler appears to be able to handle about 160W TDP at 95 oC continuously (maybe up to 180 W?), however I eventually hit a VRM temp limit at anything over 135 W on the Cinebench multi-cpu test, so that's the limiting factor. They had the default P1 set to 125W - so that's the reason why.

I was looking at some heatsink kits to potentially add them to the VRMs, so hopefully I could hit the CPU cooler limit at least. Meanwhile, just trying to figure out what's going on with my oversized undervoltage. There is no way to reduce clock stretching (assuming that is the issue here) other than reduce the undervolt?

 

[DarkDreams]

It's a Vetroo V5 CPU Air Cooler with 5 Heat Pipes 120mm, with good thermal grease. I could have applied it poorly, but have done this multiple times before, pretty sure it's okay.

The cooler appears to be able to handle about 160W TDP at 95 oC continuously (maybe up to 180 W?), however I eventually hit a VRM temp limit at anything over 135 W on the Cinebench multi-cpu test, so that's the limiting factor. They had the default P1 set to 125W - so that's the reason why.

I was looking at some heatsink kits to potentially add them to the VRMs, so hopefully I could hit the CPU cooler limit at least. Meanwhile, just trying to figure out what's going on with my oversized undervoltage. There is no way to reduce clock stretching (assuming that is the issue here) other than reduce the undervolt?

Correct. Clock stretching is essentially the CPU trying not to crash when it is not getting enough voltage. You also have to keep in mind that the amount you are able to undervolt depends on how much voltage your motherboard gives the CPU to begin with. I build a system with a 12400 and an NZXT mb and actually raised the voltage a little because it was so close to clock stretching at default settings.
As for VRM temps you could look at case airflow to improve cooling for them as well. Don't know how your case fans are set up.

 

[Hugis]

@LightCC42

you did look here didnt you?


https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/10fzsh9

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Does Gigabyte B760 DS3H bottleneck i7-13700k ?​

I just build a pc with i7-13700k and Gigabyte B760 DS3H, usually people get around 30k score on cinebench R23 with stock settings, i7-13700k is cooled by Deep Cool Castle 240EX and I have applied some undervolt and I am hardly hitting 25k on cinebench r23, it is not thermal throttling but time to time cpu clocks drop from 5ghz to 4.3ghz on 100% load on 5ghz 100% cpu temps around 80-85 C .
Is it possible that b760 ds3h bottlenecking the cpu ?



Its not only possible, but 100% true. B660 DS3H couldnt even fully handle 13600k, and im guessing B760 is basically same board. So there is no way it can handle 13700k.

Its last in all benchmarks even with weaker CPUS. At 250w VRM hits 100c. Its just a very budget board, not intended for cpus as powerful as 13600k/13700k. There are more videos on youtube, but the results are always the same

 

[ShrimpBrime]

It's a Vetroo V5 CPU Air Cooler with 5 Heat Pipes 120mm, with good thermal grease. I could have applied it poorly, but have done this multiple times before, pretty sure it's okay.

The cooler appears to be able to handle about 160W TDP at 95 oC continuously (maybe up to 180 W?), however I eventually hit a VRM temp limit at anything over 135 W on the Cinebench multi-cpu test, so that's the limiting factor. They had the default P1 set to 125W - so that's the reason why.

I was looking at some heatsink kits to potentially add them to the VRMs, so hopefully I could hit the CPU cooler limit at least. Meanwhile, just trying to figure out what's going on with my oversized undervoltage. There is no way to reduce clock stretching (assuming that is the issue here) other than reduce the undervolt?

160w cooler on a 253w chip. (Cinebench and other full load workloads)

Well that explains why you are chopping the nuts off your cpu. The poor thing.

13700K gives performance with slight under-volts.

Micro-code 104 should eliminate under-volt protection.

But cpu and board must protect its self from way crazy under-volt numbers.

At stock full load should droop no more than 1.288v at 5.3ghz.
Then you take -0.150 volts and wonder why management engine doesn't like it??

A realistic under-volt would be like -0.020v. Just a little bit to try and accomplish CBR23 before 100c throttle, for example.

Needs better cooling really, that's all it is. Or a lot less under-volting.....

@LightCC42

you did look here didnt you?


https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/10fzsh9

\/ \/ \/ \/

Does Gigabyte B760 DS3H bottleneck i7-13700k ?​

I just build a pc with i7-13700k and Gigabyte B760 DS3H, usually people get around 30k score on cinebench R23 with stock settings, i7-13700k is cooled by Deep Cool Castle 240EX and I have applied some undervolt and I am hardly hitting 25k on cinebench r23.

25K !!??

Why don't you guys just leave it stock? Should be 30k. No questions asked.

If you've made changes and it's below 30K, the changes are not correct.

All cores 5.3ghz, with exception of 2 cores running 5.4ghz. E-cores 4.2ghz.

Fairly certain you could accomplish 25k with e-cores disabled. As example, not saying to turn them off.

 

[LightCC42]

you did look here didnt you?
...
Its last in all benchmarks even with weaker CPUS. At 250w VRM hits 100c. Its just a very budget board, not intended for cpus as powerful as 13600k/13700k. There are more videos on youtube, but the results are always the same

Yeah, looks like VRMs are severely underpowered, and my cooler significantly underpowered as well.

I looked at reviews before buying, but I ended up with a different board than I was originally looking at. But I think they were both 660/760s, as I was trying to gauge value for price. I thought the only thing I was losing was the ability to overclock directly - I just wanted to run stock with 3200 DDR4. The reviews I looked at didn't really cover this part of the engineering problem - anything about undervolting and 12/13/14 series Intel's being such power hogs until after trying to get everything working. Sure I saw info about people using 240/360 coolers, but it looked like that was all typical overclocking stuff, I never imagined you'd need a $100 cooler just to run stock.

I guess that's why the 13700/13700f are 24k in Cinebench instead of 30k - they are using the stock Intel cooler, that should be in the same ballpark as mine. They have a 200W version of mine that I believe just has a second fan on the other side...

Thanks for the input - I haven't built a PC in ~8 years, and a lot longer than that for an Intel, so I've been out of the know... I thought about using this motherboard with a low-end processor like 13400 or even 12400 to convert an old PC into a secondary desktop for when friends are over, gaming, etc., but at this point I'm not sure the VRMs can even handle those stock... that said most games don't push the CPU like Cinebench does.

Now the question is - what's the best case scenario for this board with this CPU? Salvagable or just start over with 690/790? Add a second fan on the cooler and heatsinks to the VRMs?

160w cooler on a 253w chip. (Cinebench and other full load workloads)

Well that explains why you are chopping the nuts off your cpu. The poor thing.

13700K gives performance with slight under-volts.

Micro-code 104 should eliminate under-volt protection.

But cpu and board must protect its self from way crazy under-volt numbers.

At stock full load should droop no more than 1.288v at 5.3ghz.
Then you take -0.150 volts and wonder why management engine doesn't like it??

A realistic under-volt would be like -0.020v. Just a little bit to try and accomplish CBR23 before 100c throttle, for example.

Needs better cooling really, that's all it is. Or a lot less under-volting.....



25K !!??

Why don't you guys just leave it stock? Should be 30k. No questions asked.

If you've made changes and it's below 30K, the changes are not correct.

All cores 5.3ghz, with exception of 2 cores running 5.4ghz. E-cores 4.2ghz.

Fairly certain you could accomplish 25k with e-cores disabled. As example, not saying to turn them off.

So even with undervolting to get 30k on Cinebench you are churning out 253W continuous? That info didn't come through even in the research I've been doing since discovering undervolting, etc. It looked like a lot of people were doing -80 to -100 mV just fine, at least in mid or upper 20's. I'd be really happy to just get 24k at this point... Looks like I'll need a new board and updated cooler though.

I also know that typical usage doesn't get anywhere close to Cinebench, even with heavy gaming, so I'm okay clipping it a bit and running at lower power. I just figured 180W or so should do after strating to look into this. Sounds more like you need 200-225W minimum, if not 250W?

 

[P4-630]

Never skimp on a motherboard....

 

[Hugis]

Now the question is - what's the best case scenario for this board with this CPU? Salvagable or just start over with 690/790? Add a second fan on the cooler and heatsinks to the VRMs?

Guess that is the question now,will the supplier take back the mobo?Can you get a decent Z mobo?decent cooler?etc,etc
Ball is back in your court as only you know what is possible

 

[LightCC42]

Never skimp on a motherboard....

Sounds good, but you're always making price/value tradeoffs. I've done well on the cheap in the past (with an exception or two), and $250-$450 for Pro MBs is definitely sticker shock for someone who's been building PCs off and on for 30 years. The last PC I put together for my dad cost less than half of these Motherboards by themselves (of course, not for gaming).

Looks like Intel's got a power mess on their hands as big as AMD used to have. Spending an extra $200-$300 for MB and cooler just to get it to run fully at stock feels crazy to me.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Yeah, looks like VRMs are severely underpowered, and my cooler significantly underpowered as well.

I looked at reviews before buying, but I ended up with a different board than I was originally looking at. But I think they were both 660/760s, as I was trying to gauge value for price. I thought the only thing I was losing was the ability to overclock directly - I just wanted to run stock with 3200 DDR4. The reviews I looked at didn't really cover this part of the engineering problem - anything about undervolting and 12/13/14 series Intel's being such power hogs until after trying to get everything working. Sure I saw info about people using 240/360 coolers, but it looked like that was all typical overclocking stuff, I never imagined you'd need a $100 cooler just to run stock.

I guess that's why the 13700/13700f are 24k in Cinebench instead of 30k - they are using the stock Intel cooler, that should be in the same ballpark as mine. They have a 200W version of mine that I believe just has a second fan on the other side...

Thanks for the input - I haven't built a PC in ~8 years, and a lot longer than that for an Intel, so I've been out of the know... I thought about using this motherboard with a low-end processor like 13400 or even 12400 to convert an old PC into a secondary desktop for when friends are over, gaming, etc., but at this point I'm not sure the VRMs can even handle those stock... that said most games don't push the CPU like Cinebench does.

Now the question is - what's the best case scenario for this board with this CPU? Salvagable or just start over with 690/790? Add a second fan on the cooler and heatsinks to the VRMs?


So even with undervolting to get 30k on Cinebench you are churning out 253W continuous? That info didn't come through even in the research I've been doing since discovering undervolting, etc. It looked like a lot of people were doing -80 to -100 mV just fine, at least in mid or upper 20's. I'd be really happy to just get 24k at this point... Looks like I'll need a new board and updated cooler though.

I also know that typical usage doesn't get anywhere close to Cinebench, even with heavy gaming, so I'm okay clipping it a bit and running at lower power. I just figured 180W or so should do after strating to look into this. Sounds more like you need 200-225W minimum, if not 250W?

I don't have my bios fully upto date.
Running a B660-G strix.
With a Wraith Prism set on top the 13700K.
And I have none of these issues.

Yes, My cpu hits 100c at loaf at stock.
Cause that's what it's supposed to do.

I have not the option to turn off under-volt protection uCode 104. Using an older Bios.

________

If me was in your shoes:

Reset defaults and enable XMP.
Fan on the VRM package area without heatsinks. Just any fan to move are around that vrm cpu socket area. It'll help.

Then maybe try lowering the AVX multiplier and see if that helps with AVX workloads like CinebenchR23.

A slight under-volt, but a little at a time. When the performance starts to degrade, no more under-volt.

LLC, you've messed with. This will work while v-core is set on auto. You've messed with it already, but it's not doing will applied with an under-volt, try maybe one or the other.

End: it's a hot cpu. Should be under 360 watercooling. It's an i7 after all....
The board is fine. Just cool the VRMs.

 

[P4-630]

Or you could find a new much less expensive hobby....

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Or you could find a new much less expensive hobby....

Lol.
My son and I love RC Cars. It's not cheaper.

 

[P4-630]

Lol.
My son and I love RC Cars. It's not cheaper.

Great hobby!! I used to have 4 RC cars in the 90s!!
2 Tamyia Electric 1/10 , one Kyosho Inferno nitro 1/8 , my favorite, a Franz Groschl 1/5 with 26cc gasoline engine with a Mc Laren F1 body.
Expensive hobby right... I wasn't really much into computers in the 90s.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Great hobby!! I used to have 4 RC cars in the 90s!!
2 Tamyia Electric 1/10 , one Kyosho Inferno nitro 1/8 , my favorite, a Franz Groschl 1/5 with 26cc gasoline engine with a Mc Laren F1 body.
Expensive hobby right... I wasn't really much into computers in the 90s.

I don't want to throw thread off much, and I can't see the lounge yet. Is there a section for Rc cars at TPU?

 

[P4-630]

I don't want to throw thread off much, and I can't see the lounge yet. Is there a section for Rc cars at TPU?

Maybe I or someone else made one in the past, not sure though..

 

[ShrimpBrime]

To stay on topic.

This is 13700K XMP with OC.
Asus Performance enhancement disabled.
LLC at Lvl2 with a droop min v-core of 1.314v

At all defaults, it throttles 100c
With only LLC reduced, stays a bit cooler without sacrifice the CB score.

Here's live phone photo so there's no confusion of time laps. Approximately 12:59pm US central time.




Here is Under-Volt protection ENABLED - WITH an under-volt.

Notice the V-core states 1.314v, the temps are lower, and the score now dips under 30K, but respectable to the clock frequency.

The under-volt skew is not reflective of actual clock frequency. Management engine controls the under-volt to frequency. These changes aree not reflective in all monitoring hardware.

At this time, I'm not demonstrating the clock skew to the v-core reduction while under-volt is enabled.
I have conversed and read a lot. The one thing that seems to consistently change my PC is NOT bios firmware updates. I'm using a pretty old bios and firmware ME version.
Windows 11, which I'm running actually updates the software for Intel Management Engine. These are the changes I've seen that are consistent.
With some working around ME with uCode 104, may be fine as long as windows doesn't interfere with the management engine.

Here's an example, of LLC lvl 1 (lowest it can go) WITH a 0.100 under-volt in BIOS which does not get displayed at the minimum value which would be the full load v-droop.
Through a lot of playing with my 13700K, I have defined 1.350v to be the stock v-core for my chip. So in reality, 30K is probably a little low at 1.314v. And as suspected and demonstrated, the lower the v-core, the lower the frequency.

Under-volt protection enabled, but not working? Or perhaps working properly, scaling IPC to v-core??

This is offset -0.1000v bios


This one is manually 1.31500v bios
Under-Volt Protection ENGAGED!
lol. Stupid thing is running base frequency in the background.

 

[Hugis]

Shrimps got you handled

 

[AleXXX666]

It's a Vetroo V5 CPU Air Cooler with 5 Heat Pipes 120mm, with good thermal grease. I could have applied it poorly, but have done this multiple times before, pretty sure it's okay.

The cooler appears to be able to handle about 160W TDP at 95 oC continuously (maybe up to 180 W?), however I eventually hit a VRM temp limit at anything over 135 W on the Cinebench multi-cpu test, so that's the limiting factor. They had the default P1 set to 125W - so that's the reason why.

I was looking at some heatsink kits to potentially add them to the VRMs, so hopefully I could hit the CPU cooler limit at least. Meanwhile, just trying to figure out what's going on with my oversized undervoltage. There is no way to reduce clock stretching (assuming that is the issue here) other than reduce the undervolt?

not best mobo for 13700K lmfao. For such mobos the littlest one could do is stick on VRM some M2 sticky HS like ADATA's ones. It helps, a little, but it does!!

 

[P4-630]

Spending an extra $200-$300 for MB and cooler just to get it to run fully at stock feels crazy to me.

You bought an unlocked i7-13700K high-end CPU, which also means you need an adequate motherboard and a decent cooler to get the most out of it.

You could have known this from reviews.

Intel Core i7-13700K Review - Great at Gaming and Applications

With the Core i7-13700K, Intel has built a formidable jack-of-all-trades processor. Our review confirms that it offers fantastic application performance, beating the more expensive Ryzen 9 7900X, and in gaming it gets you higher FPS than any AMD processor ever released, delivering an experience...

www.techpowerup.com