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- May 24, 2023
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System Name | ICE-QUAD // ICE-CRUNCH |
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Processor | Q6600 // 2x Xeon 5472 |
Memory | 2GB DDR // 8GB FB-DIMM |
Video Card(s) | HD3850-AGP // FireGL 3400 |
Display(s) | 2 x Samsung 204Ts = 3200x1200 |
Audio Device(s) | Audigy 2 |
Software | Windows Server 2003 R2 as a Workstation now migrated to W10 with regrets. |
System Name | Ghetto Rigs z490|x99|Acer 17 Nitro 7840hs/ 5600c40-2x16/ 4060/ 1tb acer stock m.2/ 4tb sn850x |
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Processor | 10900k w/Optimus Foundation | 5930k w/Black Noctua D15 |
Motherboard | z490 Maximus XII Apex | x99 Sabertooth |
Cooling | oCool D5 res-combo/280 GTX/ Optimus Foundation/ gpu water block | Blk D15 |
Memory | Trident-Z Royal 4000c16 2x16gb | Trident-Z 3200c14 4x8gb |
Video Card(s) | Titan Xp-water | evga 980ti gaming-w/ air |
Storage | 970evo+500gb & sn850x 4tb | 860 pro 256gb | Acer m.2 1tb/ sn850x 4tb| Many2.5" sata's ssd 3.5hdd's |
Display(s) | 1-AOC G2460PG 24"G-Sync 144Hz/ 2nd 1-ASUS VG248QE 24"/ 3rd LG 43" series |
Case | D450 | Cherry Entertainment center on Test bench |
Audio Device(s) | Built in Realtek x2 with 2-Insignia 2.0 sound bars & 1-LG sound bar |
Power Supply | EVGA 1000P2 with APC AX1500 | 850P2 with CyberPower-GX1325U |
Mouse | Redragon 901 Perdition x3 |
Keyboard | G710+x3 |
Software | Win-7 pro x3 and win-10 & 11pro x3 |
Benchmark Scores | Are in the benchmark section |
Why? I demonstrated here that mounting mechanisms of the socket have HUGE effect on the shape of the IHS (at least with Intel LGA 1700 CPUs). Any changes in shape caused by temperature heat expansion would be thousand times smaller than this.Has anybody done a study of HOT lapping vs. COLD lapping. Afterall, if the CPU is going to be operating at, say, 80C, then it should be lapped at that temperature.
Why??? Gold has worse heat conductivity than copper and gold leaf is impossible to work with, it would break into unmanageable heat conductive pieces floating around in the computer!Anybody tried putting gold leaf between the CPU IHS and the cooler heatsink instead of thermal paste? I wonder how that bling would work out.
System Name | ICE-QUAD // ICE-CRUNCH |
---|---|
Processor | Q6600 // 2x Xeon 5472 |
Memory | 2GB DDR // 8GB FB-DIMM |
Video Card(s) | HD3850-AGP // FireGL 3400 |
Display(s) | 2 x Samsung 204Ts = 3200x1200 |
Audio Device(s) | Audigy 2 |
Software | Windows Server 2003 R2 as a Workstation now migrated to W10 with regrets. |
Oh, so you are advocating NO LAPPING AT ALL because the mounting mechanisms bend the CPU/IHS anyway. That's actually a really useful takeaway from this whole thread. Don't waste your time lapping.Why? I demonstrated here that mounting mechanisms of the socket have HUGE effect on the shape of the IHS (at least with Intel LGA 1700 CPUs). Any changes in shape caused by temperature heat expansion would be thousand times smaller than this.
Err, is your IHS copper? Is your heatsink copper? I don't think you will find copper leaf anywhere near as thin as gold leaf, and remember thermal resistance is related to the THICKNESS of the material. If the transition layer is very thin and very soft, just an example, gold leaf, then it's ability to squeeze, bend, and be nanometers thin, is actually something worth considering. And you don't have to deal with thick thermal paste which actually is far thicker than gold leaf. Plus, remember, there are some people here that like LEDs on their PCs. WTF really, each to their own. Just as some like other bling gadgets, if a sheet of gold leaf works just as well, then for some, blingy unique, each to their own.Why??? Gold has worse heat conductivity than copper and gold leaf is impossible to work with, it would break into unmanageable heat conductive pieces floating around in the computer!
Processor | i5-9600K |
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Motherboard | Gigabyte Z390 Gaming X |
Cooling | Scythe Mugen 5S |
Memory | Micron Ballistix Sports LT 3000 8G*4 |
Video Card(s) | EVGA 3070 XC3 Ultra Gaming |
Storage | Adata SX6000 Pro 512G, Kingston A2000 1T |
Display(s) | Gigabyte M32Q |
Case | Antec DF700 Flux |
Audio Device(s) | Edifier C3X |
Power Supply | Super Flower Leadex Gold 650W |
Mouse | Razer Basilisk V2 |
Keyboard | Ducky ONE 2 Horizon |
Here: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/939glu Gold leaf seems to work worse than thermal pasteAnybody tried putting gold leaf between the CPU IHS and the cooler heatsink instead of thermal paste? I wonder how that bling would work out.
Notice that the person needed to crumple the leaf.Here: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/939glu Gold leaf seems to work worse than thermal paste
I tested Noctua NH U12A Black version. It appears to be a newest revision - packaging style is different than the style visible in reviews on the internet.
View attachment 338684
Tha base is very roughly machined. This rough machining will ensure a pretty thick layer of thermal paste even if the overall shapes of the mating surfaces would match perfectly. It is hard to justify.
The overall shape is strongly cylindrical. If the cooler was mounted in conventional vertical position, I think that this shape could match a shape of Intel CPU deformed my the normal mounting mechanism. Flat CPUs of Intel CPUs mounted with the frame probably will have a poor contact.
You can see the thick layer of paste on my CPU mounted with the frame.
View attachment 338685
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I think Noctua should use much finer machining, and should sell TWO VERSIONS of the cooler, one with really flat base and the second one matching well deformed Intel CPUs
You do not need extreme flatness, normal flatness will suffice. The normal flatness will not be more expensive, they can make flat surface the same cheaply as they machine shapes on the cooler bases.Will user(s) pay extra for extreme flatness
I contacted Noctua with questions, I will post answers if I ever get some.
Other than that the information is not very satisfactory so far.Producing different coolers with different base convexity was not deemed necessary until now; however, we are currently looking more into this option for future projects.
System Name | CyberPowerPC ET8070 |
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Processor | Intel Core i5-10400F |
Motherboard | Gigabyte B460M DS3H AC-Y1 |
Memory | 2 x Crucial Ballistix 8GB DDR4-3000 |
Video Card(s) | MSI Nvidia GeForce GTX 1660 Super |
Storage | Boot: Intel OPTANE SSD P1600X Series 118GB M.2 PCIE |
Display(s) | Dell P2416D (2560 x 1440) |
Power Supply | EVGA 500W1 |
Software | Windows 11 Home |
I believe that they first machine the copper base and then they solder heatpipes on it. This heat stress may cause some unwanted warping.Metal plates will generally have residual stress from their manufacture....
System Name | EVA-01 |
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Processor | Intel i7 13700K |
Motherboard | Asus ROG Maximus Z690 HERO EVA Edition |
Cooling | ASUS ROG Ryujin III 360 with Noctua Industrial Fans |
Memory | PAtriot Viper Elite RGB 96GB @ 6000MHz. |
Video Card(s) | Asus ROG Strix GeForce RTX 3090 24GB OC EVA Edition |
Storage | Addlink S95 M.2 PCIe GEN 4x4 2TB |
Display(s) | Asus ROG SWIFT OLED PG42UQ |
Case | Thermaltake Core P3 TG |
Audio Device(s) | Realtek on board > Sony Receiver > Cerwin Vegas |
Power Supply | be quiet DARK POWER PRO 12 1500W |
Mouse | ROG STRIX Impact Electro Punk |
Keyboard | ROG STRIX Scope TKL Electro Punk |
Software | Windows 11 |
I bought an experimental Noctua NH U12S Redux cooler.
The base is notably worse than the base of the U12A cooler:
View attachment 339234
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I decided to grind the nipple drowning in the sea off. Unfortunately I had just one sheet of coarse emery paper and I gave up trying to flatten the whole base.
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The end result is very nice:
View attachment 339241
You can see that the layer of paste is much thinner now on almost the whole IHS area:
View attachment 339242
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Processor | AMD R7 5800X3D |
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Motherboard | Asus Crosshair VIII Dark Hero |
Cooling | Thermalright Frozen Edge 360, 3x TL-B12 V2, 2x TL-B12 V1 |
Memory | 2x8 G.Skill Trident Z Royal 3200C14, 2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z Black and White 3200 C14 |
Video Card(s) | Zotac 4070 Ti Trinity OC |
Storage | WD SN850 1TB, SN850X 2TB, SN770 1TB |
Display(s) | LG 50UP7100 |
Case | Fractal Torrent Compact |
Audio Device(s) | JBL Bar 700 |
Power Supply | Seasonic Vertex GX-1000, Monster HDP1800 |
Mouse | Logitech G502 Hero |
Keyboard | Logitech G213 |
VR HMD | Oculus 3 |
Software | Yes |
Benchmark Scores | Yes |
Would it be useful to press the IHS against an ink pad, and then against fine paper? What bond or whatever would be best?Following the discussion in another thread, I would like to post some practical information how to check flatness of the CPU heatspreades or cooler base.
The INK METHOD
Simply place a drop of ink (I used black fountain pen ink) on the surface and press against a glass. I used a 10mm thick plate of glass, which I use for lapping, which is really stiff and does not deform, you may get some useful info even with a lot thinner glass.
You can see the results:
View attachment 330476
View attachment 330477
The lapped surface in nearly perfectly flat, except the two right corners.
The CPU excluding a few milimetres on the edges and upper corners is also acceptably flat and I would not feel any need to lap it for normal use. You can even clearly see the grinding marks after it has been ground flat.
The OPTICAL INTERFERENCE METHOD
Under certain conditions you can see a rainbow pattern (with broad spectrum light) or light and dark pattern (with monochromatic light) between a reflective surface of the object and flat glass.
If you had a green light with wavelenght of 0.5 μm (micrometer), each neighboring dark (or light) stripe would mean, that the distance between the two surfaces changed by 0.25 μm between these stripes.
I quickly lapped and polished the above photographed CPU (and destroyed a valuable historic artefact) and got this picture:
View attachment 330501View attachment 330502View attachment 330574
You can see, that in the indicated area there is something like 8 stripes from top to bottom. That should mean that in this area the heatspreader is flat within 8 x 0.25 μm, that is two micrometers! (two thousands of a milimeter)
- Post the results using ink method of your brand new CPU and cooler base, of the CPU before and after spending some time mounted in the socket with normal mounting mechanism.
- Post your results before and after lapping cooler base and CPUs.
- If you had a small piece of glass, you can easily test the CPU while being mounted in the socket.
- Post the difference between stock mounting mechanism of the LGA1700 socket and the mounting frame. (In my experience an LGA1700 CPU remains slightly bent even after being removed from the socket with stock mounting mechanism, which may affect your results.)
WARNING: Lapping a CPU voids the warranty.
ANOTHER WARNING: Do not decide to lap the cpu only after seeing in out of the socket, you need to see what is happening with it when it is mounted in the socket!
EDIT:
If somebody wondered, why the interference pattern does not look very nice, it is because the surface itself in less than perfect - the plating started to wear off and how I said I lapped it just very quickly. I also did not have a proper monochromatic light and no special equipment. This sort of stuff can require special lens to capture it, special shape of the light beam etc.
However it proves clearly, that you can even with a very dirty quick lapping job get to 2 micrometer flatness on a large portion of the CPU.
Here is a picture of how the surface really looks:
View attachment 330566
EDIT 2:
I should add that I put the CPU under the middle of the glass piece and left it press against the CPU only by its weight (2.44kg). In reality coolers press the CPU with much larger force. While changing the force you can observe changing of the pattern, it also depends on how you hold or support the CPU. So if the shape of the CPU looks like "an unimpressive hill", this shape could improve under the pressure of the cooler.
I do not believe this optical interference method has much practical use for a normal consumer, the ink method is so much more easy and convenient...
The overall result - the thickness of the gap between the CPU and cooler base and resulting thermal resistance of this thermal interface depends on many factors: shape of the mating surfaces, flexibility of the mating bodies, contact force, mounting of the CPU and cooler, TIM, etc.
EDIT 3: For anyone wanting to post pictures in this thread: can you PLEASE INPUT THUMBNAILS in the text, not whole pictures? I have no idea why the forum inputs large pictures as a default.
I screwed the temp measurement up.What is the thermal difference?
I already wrote:@OP How are you lapping the cooler? You have lapped it incorrectly as the sides have thick thermal paste.
I already wrote:
Unfortunately I had just one sheet of coarse emery paper and I gave up trying to flatten the whole base.
The curve to which Noctua shapes the bases is very strong and If I wanted to get rid of the remaining curved parts at the sides of the base I would need to remove A LOT of material and I had no tools (enough coarse emery paper) and patience to do so.
I was also avoiding the word "lapping" because the end result is not perfectly flat even on the limited area, but it is MUCH FLATTER than what I started with.
This seems to be a good tutorial how to reach true flat surface, unfortunately I believe sometimes it can be hard to achieve, when you are trying to flatten a large unwieldy object as an air cooler.Below is photo of an incomplete lapping of a vapor chamber. When I shine torch behind it & place a mirror on the cooler no light gets though, but the lapping is not complete let me explain why. You can see I've drawn an imaginary box on the cooler. That box when lapping with a single finger, you must not stray too far away from it, otherwise you will have roll-off on all sides, ( in other word's all the edges will be lapped lower when compared to the center of the cooler..
Now if you stay true & always lap in my imaginary box regardless of any direction,. you should end up with a near perfect flat surface. Move the pressure point too far away from that box, you will tilt the lapping. What i'm trying to say here is, treat the cooler as if it had a very small CPU die in the center & always lap here & never outside it.
Getting back to the photo below, if I had the holy grail of perfect flat surface, there will practically be no thermal paste between die & cooler, as all will be pushed out over the side. As i'm lapping this cooler none of the outside perimeter got a mirror finish even thou my target/mounting pressure is still that tiny imaginary box. This tells me the lapping is still incomplete because at some point the edges will show a mirror finish even thou my target is still that imaginary box.
NOTE: When when lapping to that imaginary box, movement is restricted in all direction, around 3 - 4 mm. Stray too far away from that imaginary box you will tilt the lapping ..not forgetting whatever method is used to lap the cooler, complete coverage of the cooler must be maintained at all times.
EDIT: & always use a single finger. Do not use two fingers as this will change the mounting pressure & tilt the lapping also ...Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong here & I want to see plenty of comments here.
This seems to be a good tutorial how to reach true flat surface, unfortunately I believe sometimes it can be hard to achieve, when you are trying to flatten a large unwieldy object as an air cooler.
One more huge complication is when you start grinding or lapping a very curved object, as was this cooler base. It is very hard to achieve grinding in plane that you need, as there is no reference plane to start with. It might have helped if I soldered/glued some guides in the corners of the base before I started.
You can see in the ink photo, that the edges are not parallel and the plane is skewed.
I think I managed to remove a material in this way, approximately:
View attachment 340123