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Battery swap for cyberpower UPS

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Following on from my posts in this thread.


Battery pack is here.

IMG_20240103_215050.jpgIMG_20240103_214902.jpg

It advises rubber gloves and footwear so will order those, and then do the swap. Will compare battery run time, old batteries I am pretty sure are older than 3 years old at this point, maybe even 4-5 years.

UPS is CP1500EPFCLCD UK model.
 

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It advises rubber gloves and footwear so will order those, and then do the swap. Will compare battery run time, old batteries I am pretty sure are older than 3 years old at this point, maybe even 4-5 years.

UPS is CP1500EPFCLCD UK model.

That reminds me, I really should replace the batteries in my BR1500MS as well. They've just crossed 4 years.
 
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It advises rubber gloves and footwear
Footwear? LOL

I hope you have not wasted your money yet - don't order any gloves or footwear. That clearly is shyster... err... lawyer talk.

Here's the deal. Because it is possible one of the cells has a crack in it, and it is no longer "sealed" there might be some battery acid that has leaked. That is what the rubber gloves are recommended for. And yes, it is a caustic acid that could eat hole in your clothes and cause skin irritation and damage to your eyes. So care when handling is important. But typically, if there is any acid, it would be apparent. You would likely see bulging of the cell, or a crack and/or liquid on the battery surface or in the battery well of the UPS.

The use of plain surgical gloves while handling would be a wise precaution, if worried about it. I never do. Instead, I make sure I set the cells down on a piece of cardboard - that said, of 100s of cells I've handled over the years, I have never seen any damage to any cardboard from an UPS SLA battery - suggesting they have not leaked. I also simply wash my hands with plain soap and water after handling the batteries. A simple, common sense precaution.

As for footwear - if you have a habit of dropping heavy objects on your toes, by all means, get some safety boots! ;)

***

For the record, I never, as in NEVER EVER buy UPS replacement batteries from the UPS maker. They charge outrageous prices for the same cells you can buy much cheaper elsewhere.
I buy my UPS batteries from BatteryWholesale, Battery Mart, Batteryplex, RefurbUPS, Walmart or Amazon - depending on who has the best price on that day. Note today one distributor will price high with free shipping and the next day price low but with additional shipping charges added. So be sure to factor in shipping, which can be significant, but sometimes free.

Just make sure you get the same voltage. The amp/hour rating can be higher however, for longer run times, but not lower. For example, it the current cells are 12V 7.2AH, I always go with 12V 9AH. And last, make sure you get the correct terminal size. There are inexpensive adapters but typically space inside the UPS battery compartment is too limited.

F1 vs F2 terminal connector size

F1 Terminal – 3/16” (0.187”, 4.8mm) wide

F2 Terminal – 1/4" (0.25”, 6.35mm) wide

If your UPS battery consists of two or more battery cells, they will be strapped in parallel, series or series/parallel configurations to achieve a specific output voltage. This strapping is typically done with one or more small jumper or interconnecting cables. Don't discard those straps (or any plastic framework) the old battery may have used. Save them to use to assemble your new battery. I recommend taking a photo of the battery wiring before disassembly to use as a guide when assembling the new cells into the new UPS battery.

***

Just for Ss and Gs - what's this cell vs battery stuff? A single cell can be "a" battery. Or, several cells put together can make up "a" battery. So, for example, if you have a flashlight that uses 4 AA batteries, individually each AA battery is a single cell. Insert the 4 AA cells into the flashlight and now, working together, they have become "one" battery, made up of 4 cells. Clear as mud, huh?

To make it more confusing, standard SLA UPS batteries, like this 12V 9Ah battery actually have 6 cells internally (just like a car battery). So, when this 12V 9Ah battery is used separately, it is a single-cell battery. But strap two of those 12V 9Ah batteries together, they become one 2-cell battery - even though there are 12 internal cells. Totally confused now? No worries. It really does not matter. Most people just call them batteries and that's fine.
 
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Except those are way too expensive - simply because they say CyberPower on them, and they come with the little plastic piece that sandwiches between the two cells. Just use the plastic piece that came with the original battery pack. As I recommended above, take a picture first so you can easily and correctly see how the two cells are strapped. It is MUCH EASIER than it may sound.

You can easily find 12V/8Ah for less but I recommend going with 12V/9Ah for a longer run time. You can always go with a higher Ah rating but not lower. And you must go with the same voltage. IN NO WAY does going with a higher Ah rating cause any harm. The system will only draw whatever current it needs, NOT what the batteries can deliver.

If you were adventurous, you could even use a couple HUGE 12V car batteries strapped together and get a many hours worth of runtime! If curious, here's how.

I just bought 2 of these in November for the UPS on my home theater system. Those are $50 (for two) and free shipping. A lot cheaper than $90. Here's a 2-pack for even less.

BUT FIRST, as I noted above, make sure you know which size terminals you have, either F1 or F2, before ordering.
 
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I finally got round to doing this.

The instructions are way too vague, such as "remove the battery", umm how? Assumptions made that the person doing it has done a battery swap before perhaps.

But anyway, after a bit of effort, mostly in trying to get the new battery to slide all the way in (it narrows at the bottom, and seems to be a exact space in terms of tolerance), also trying to get the front cover back on, again minimal space tolerances for the cables, it is running again.

Battery was 100% straight away which seemed odd. I have done some power cut testing and its switching ok, but wow it still drains super fast, this screenshot I am attaching is with power cut for just 30 seconds at barely 10% load. The battery % was going down almost every second.

The run time went from 45 mins to 37 mins in 30 seconds. Extremely inaccurate. So its working, but no better than the old battery it replaced, possibly actually worse on run time.

ups30seconds.png
 
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Are the new batteries the exact same specs? Particularly, is the Ah rating the same? It can be bigger than the original but should not be smaller. And the voltage should be the exact same.

37 minutes of runtime is respectable. But I would let it run down until you have about 5 minutes left, then plug it in and let it fully charge again. It may need a couple deep discharge/fully charge cycles to get the status monitoring circuits in sync with the actual battery's status (similar to calibrating a laptop battery to the laptop's monitoring circuits).

You might want to check to make sure your software is current. I personally would use the UPS maker's software. I know when I used to live in the UK, our mains frequency was 50Hz. Yours says 60Hz.
 
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Yeah the pics I posted on the first post, the labels at the top are exactly the same. Like a mirror of each other, and it is the batteries cyberpower's own website states should be purchased.

Also the point I was making is that 37 minutes is not the actual runtime but instead some wild unrealistic estimation, it was going down about 15x speed. The rate of the drain the batteries would have ran out of juice at the 11% load in just 3 minutes. I reconfigured the auto hibernate now from 40% to 50%, given how quickly it drops.

The readings are taken direct from the UPS itself, including the estimation. The manufacturer software is just a different way of presenting that information. As an example the OSD on the UPS panel presents the exact same runtime, and same load, same battery charge etc. Sorry for not responding earlier, I didnt get a notification was replies for the thread. With one exception, the wall of text below, the one value you picked on.

I checked all the readings on the OSD panel, the frequency is the only one thats incorrect on winnut. The rest are an exact match. Obviously I prefer to have my UPS data fed to something centralised on my network, and then have any client device access it than proprietary software that can only be accessed on one device. Looking at pfsense it looks like input.frequency value is not reported, so winnut might have just reverted to some kind of placeholder value for that (unimportant reading in my view), the OSD panel shows that one as 50. The runtime is what I am bothered about, in terms of if the battery swap yielded any benefits. Will report this to the winnut dev anyway to see what he responds with.


Rereading your post, you seem to be suggesting it might be a calibration issue, and letting it cycle might fix it, I guess could try it. Was surprised it started at 100%, the manual for the battery even mentions need to give it 16 hours to charge as well.

--edit--

Looks like its already fixed. I am on build 2.0.4.0 I will will update the client after some sleep.


Modification of the code to recover the power supply frequency of the UPS when it only provides the output frequency (modification made in response to an unsuccessful commit of pull requests #55 - problem encountered by jcsmook)
 
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Also the point I was making is that 37 minutes is not the actual runtime but instead some wild unrealistic estimation
Well, of course it is an estimation. A typical computer's power demands vary widely and go from under 100 watts at idle to a maximum draw of several 100 watts in just a few clock cycles, depending on what the user (and OS) is doing at that point in time. This is totally unlike a lightbulb, as an example, which has a very consistent power draw all the time. So the monitoring software can only guess by assuming you, the user, will keep doing what you have been doing. It will be "fairly" realistic "IF" you keep using your computer (placing the same demands on your computer) as you have for the last few minutes.

But it should be noted the purpose for having a good UPS with AVR is twofold. First and foremost, it is for the AVR feature. The automatic voltage regulation feature is constantly adjusting (regulating) the voltage supplied to your components, constantly compensating for minor deviations and anomalies; spikes and surges, dips (opposite of spikes) and sags (opposite of surges), and brownouts (long duration sags), all without cutting over to battery power. :) And this is a very good thing, and something even the best surge and spike protector can NOT do.

Only with an "extreme" high or low voltage anomaly (short of a full outage) should the battery backup kick in - and those should be very rare.

The second, and much less important purpose for having a good UPS with AVR is to provide backup power during a full power outage long enough to allow the user to finish typing their sentence, then "gracefully" save their open files, exit their open apps, then properly shutdown Windows and their computer.

The purpose for having an UPS is NOT so the user can keep playing their games! If that is the goal, the proper solution is to get a backup generator, and then the secondary purpose for the UPS is to provide backup power long enough for the generator to fire up, stabilize output voltage, then cutover and assume power delivery requirements.

The manufacturer software is just a different way of presenting that information.
In theory that is correct. But the manufacturer software is designed to work specifically with their products - which may or may not be proprietary and may or may not comply with industry standards.

Third party software is designed to work with assumed standards, multiple manufacturers (brand name and generic) and who knows what standards. I would never assume or depend on a 3rd party to know how to monitor and report status on my hardware better than the manufacturer. I would verify it first.

I am not suggesting you dump the program you are using (though I would - but that's just my personal preference). I am just suggesting you double-check the readings with the manufacturer's programs to verify the readings you see with Windows NUT Client are the same. If the same, fine. Stick with NUT Client if you prefer that program. If different, then for sure, I would go with the manufacturers.

I would also trust (with fingers crossed) the LCD Status display on the UPS itself to be correct. I can only say that working with dozens of UPSs over the years, I have found those with display panels to be "fairly" accurate. I say fairly because most only display whole numbers. For example, my APC UPS on this computers currently says the input voltage is 120VAC. However, my digital multimeter says it is really 119.7VAC. Close enough.

the one value you picked on.
"Picked on?" LOL Not sure I would describe my actions that way. The line frequency is just the one value that immediately stood out to me as being incorrect when I saw you lived in the UK. And that fact simply led me to question, "If that value is wrong, what else might be wrong?" Hence the suggestion to double-check with a different program.

It is like our security software. We have a primary security solution we depend on. But we have (at least everyone should have) a secondary scanner just to verify we (the user and always weakest link in security) or our primary solution didn't let something slip by. If nothing else, it is for peace of mind.

I am sure 16 hours assumes a fully discharged battery. But I have never seen any new replacement battery arrive fully discharged - or even close to it. If it was, I would immediately suspect a defective battery.

Just the normal chemical reaction that begins automatically during assembly when they add the acid would start the process to create a charge ASSUMING no internal shorts or other manufacturing defects. I believe most reliable makers do minor testing before these leave their factories. That involves attaching charging connectors to the terminals and measuring the current draw. Too much could indicate a short. Not enough might indicate an open. Within expectations and the cell passes - but also takes on little charge in the process. I believe 6 - 7 hours is about the longest I have seen it take to reach 100%.

And note I do NOT believe they do this quality testing out of the kindness of their hearts, or concerns pleasing their customers. No! That would be asking too much! :rolleyes: It is because a faulty battery can leak acid or worse, overheat and start a fire. 100,000 batteries in a shipping container catching fire on a cargo ship would not make for a good day. So I suspect shysters... err... lawyers are calling the shots there. But that's still good for us consumers. :)

Speaking of leaking - that is why their lawyers called for rubber gloves. You don't want battery acid on your hands should the battery casing have a crack in it and acid leaked. That acid can cause minor acid burns if not soon neutralized and washed off. It will eat through your clothes, however. And for sure, you don't want to rub your eyes or jam your fingers up your nose if you have battery acid on them. So don't do that! ;) A solution of baking soda, vinegar or even lemon juice will neutralize the acid. Then wash thoroughly with soap and water.

Better yet, don't get any on you. If the battery has leaked, you should be able tell easily just by visually inspecting the battery for something wet on its surface.

I have no clue why they are suggesting rubber boots - that is just overkill. If you were working with dozens of big car or truck batteries in a HUGE facility UPS in a battery room, then sure. But a pair of tiny UPS SLA batteries? Nah! Just don't drop them on your toes, or a hard floor.

Looks like its already fixed.
At first, I did not think that was the same thing - if you are referring the change log for v2.0.7706 beta. But after following the link to bug fix #55 and reading the developer's comments, it does look like a fix for your issue. This still assumes your specific UPS provides that value where NUT expects to find it, but it looks hopeful.

Please keep us posted. I am really curious now!
 
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It isnt fixed, but there is a newer fork of the winnut-client, which I will install soon, then if still not fixed I will report it to the new dev lol.

I am a bit sceptical about how quick this thing is draining, and yes I agree its not intended for me to keep using the system, but rather to do a safe orderly shutdown, but at the same time the super quick drain speed has me curious if the battery isnt in a healthy state. If I was in a game at 300-400w and I have a power cut this thing might be dead within 20 seconds.

 
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I am a bit sceptical about how quick this thing is draining
It is possible you got a bad cell - however, if you yank the UPS power cord from the wall and your computer does not come crashing down, odds are the battery is good.

There are couple ways you can test the cells without risk to your computer - if you have a multimeter. The best way is with a realistic load. But you can also do it with no load.

Charge them up, then measure the voltage, wait, then measure again. A good, fully charged 12V battery should read a little over 12VDC - perhaps as much as 13.4V. Record that value, then go away and come back tomorrow and measure it again. It will drop a little but should still be over 12VDC and close to the original value. If, after a couple days it drops below 10VDC, that cell has an internal short and is bad.

If you have a multimeter and a suitable dummy load, you can test your battery, or better yet, the individual cells much more quickly. I have a monster 10Ω 100W ceramic resistor I use to simulate loudspeakers when testing audio power amps. I strap this resistor across the battery, then attach my meter probes. The battery will, of course, start to discharge, but it should be slow and steady. WARNING - the resistor will get hot - enough to burn your (or tiny inquisitive) fingers.

Another way is to get a 100W incandescent lightbulb and put it in a desk or table lamp plugged into the UPS. Pull the UPS plug from the wall. It should hold and discharge at a slow, steady rate but with a 1500VA UPS, last a good 30 or so minutes.
 
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Ok I did some tinkering in winut-client, there is a calibration screen where have to manually specify frequency, this wasnt there on the old version, can choose 50 or 60, I changed it to 50, I also tweaked the min/max values for voltages so 230v is in the middle at the top, the upper limit in UK is 253v, which I am currently close to.

Thank you for the tips on testing the battery, I might buy the bulb as seems the easiest way.

1711145549547.png


Will update again in about a week, existing lamp is E14 biggest bulb I could find is 40W, ordered a 2nd E27 lamp and a 60W bulb for it for the test so 100W combined.
 
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Will update again in about a week, existing lamp is E14 biggest bulb I could find is 40W, ordered a 2nd E27 lamp and a 60W bulb for it for the test so 100W combined.
Yeah, sure that will work. You can always plug more than one desk lamp in to the UPS. I just happened to have had a 100W incandescent bulb laying around so that is what I use. As long as they are not "equivalent" bulbs, that's fine. You want a realistic load on the UPS. Not a 5W LED bulb that puts out an "equivalent" of 40W of light. That's still just a 5W load.

And it doesn't have to total up to exactly 100W. That's just a nice round number. 2 x 40W or 2 x 60W would work just fine too. Or if you like 100W, go with 2 x 50W.

I like using lightbulbs for testing UPSs because I can start the test then go on to do something else. It will be pretty obvious when the batteries finally die.

I note your screenshot above, along with 50Hz, also shows 51 minutes of runtime. That seems reasonable to me. And remember, it is just an estimate. Perhaps when you get your test load (lightbulbs) figured out, you can run a timed test now, while your batteries are new. That will establish a baseline. Then every 6 months (or whatever), run it again and see how the batteries are doing.

Typical SLA UPS batteries last 2 to 5 years. It varies greatly depending on (1) how often the UPS kicks over to battery output, (2) the load when on battery, and (3) how deep the discharge is when it is on battery. Ambient heat plays a role too but generally, if the room is at a comfortable temperature for us humans, and there is space around the UPS for ventilation, heat plays a less significant role.

I'd say since you got 3 (maybe 4 - 5) years, you are doing fine. While replacement batteries are not cheap, they are cheaper than a whole new UPS. And now you know how to replace them so next time will be easier.

Oh, BTW, old SLA batteries should NOT go in the trash bin but instead, should be recycled. Here in the US, most auto parts stores will take them for free. We have several battery and lamp stores here that will take them too. And the really good news is, approximately 99% of the materials in these SLA batteries (standard car batteries too) can be recycled over and over again. :)
 
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Yep one reason I am not keen on doing battery swaps is the safe recycling required, I need to see if is a pickup service round here, currently the old batteries are in the box the new one's came in.
 
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Following on from my posts in this thread.


Battery pack is here.

View attachment 328164View attachment 328165

It advises rubber gloves and footwear so will order those, and then do the swap. Will compare battery run time, old batteries I am pretty sure are older than 3 years old at this point, maybe even 4-5 years.

UPS is CP1500EPFCLCD UK model.
Footwear mainly in case you drop one of the batterys.

SLAs are NOT light things despite their size.
 
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Yep one reason I am not keen on doing battery swaps is the safe recycling required, I need to see if is a pickup service round here, currently the old batteries are in the box the new one's came in.

Any place that sells car batteries will take them.
 
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It advises rubber gloves and footwear so will order those, and then do the swap. Will compare battery run time, old batteries I am pretty sure are older than 3 years old at this point, maybe even 4-5 years.
Lol, the legal department wrote that part of the label. Those are just precautionary "best practices" advice for people working in computer repair facilities. I know there are a few people here at TPU that don't understand that "best practices" doesn't always apply to laypeople.

If you handle 50-100 batteries per day, yeah, there might be a leaker and you'll want to protect your hands from battery acid.

Of course, if it makes you feel better, go right ahead and buy those gloves and shoes. Not sure what PC owner on this planet doesn't a pair of shoes but okay.

:):p:D
 
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Any place that sells car batteries will take them.
I know that is true here in the US where just about everyone has an O'Reillys, AutoZone, Advanced, Pep Boys, or a NAPA just down the street.

Not sure about the UK where the OP lives. HOWEVER, I believe they are actually more conscientious about recycling on that side of the Big Pond so I would assume you could look it up and find a place.

I know even here, twice a year our city has a "city clean up" day where they take old batteries, tires, motor oil and other things not normally put in the trash.

Yep one reason I am not keen on doing battery swaps is the safe recycling required
Unless the case is cracked and leaking battery acid, they are safe to handle - again as long as you don't drop them on your toes.

Do note these same batteries are used in emergency lighting and EXIT signs in many MANY commercial buildings, hospitals, etc. And they are used in electric start lawn mowers, snow throwers, electric wheel chairs and more. And of course, with computer and networking systems. My point is, they are widely used. And as I noted above, 99% of the materials used in them are recyclable. That means it is worthwhile (read: profitable) for recycling places to take them off our hands.
 
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@Bill_Bright

Besides the places to buy you mentioned in post #3, DO YOU have a brand preference here in the USA.
I've been using the CSB brand for years.
Then there's PowerSonic, MightyMax, NPP, and others.

Leaning towards PowerSonic :
 
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That reminds me, I really should replace the batteries in my BR1500MS as well. They've just crossed 4 years.

I wonder if the 11 year warrentee on lithium would make up for the extra cost.

11 year warrentee.jpg
 
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Shrek is right about lithium but they do tend to be expensive. So do your home to see if worth the up front cost.

DO YOU have a brand preference here in the USA.
Not really. This is because these batteries are very low tech items. There really is nothing special a brand with deep pockets can do a different brand on a budget can't - especially considering almost everything is from recycled stock and don't depend on some innovated design or technology.

So I go by today's price.

That said, Amazon sells a lot of MightyMax at a great price (if you qualify for free shipping) and so I have been buying a lot of MightyMax batteries over the last couple years. I cannot say they are better than the other brands. All I can say is I have seen no evidence they are of lower quality or that they will die before the others.

In other words, I have found they are all pretty much the same.
 

tabascosauz

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I wonder if the 11 year warrentee on lithium would make up for the extra cost.

Not looking for an experiment that throws the UPS monitoring data estimates out of whack. Not sure what an 11 year warranty is good for if compatibility is obviously not part of that guarantee, it's also expensive as balls. Also getting conflicting reports as to what not having the recommended ideal LiFePO4 charger and sitting all the time as essentially standby power will do for that advertised longevity.
 
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Not looking for an experiment that throws the UPS monitoring data estimates out of whack. Not sure what an 11 year warranty is good for if compatibility is obviously not part of that guarantee, it's also expensive as balls. Also getting conflicting reports as to what not having the recommended ideal LiFePO4 charger and sitting all the time as essentially standby power will do for that advertised longevity.

Not to insist, just explore.

If they last 12 years (plausible if they are warrenteed for 11), that is 3 times your 4 year plan and so one might reason that one can then afford 3 times the initial cost.

But I certainly see your point if view.
 
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tabascosauz

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Not to insist, just explore.

If they last 12 years (plausible if they are warrenteed for 11), that is 3 times your 4 year plan and so one might that one then afford 3 times the initial cost.

But I certainly see your point if view.

It's not that I don't trust the brand, it definitely looks better than the dozens of potential fire hazards on Amazon. It's that the warranty sounds pretty worthless (or at least not worth more than anyone else's), it has the usual disclaimers for nonstandard use (UPS use? Not buying their "recommended" LiFePO4 charger?) and only manufacturer defects are warrantied (as expected). Add to that the price, and it seems more trouble than it's worth. Forgive me for being skeptical, I've just been burned too many times by warranty fine print.

Probably great for the outdoors purposes most of their products are advertised for, though.
 
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