Why doesn't every house have solar installed?

[AusWolf]

Given our past interactions you should already know that I'm an opinionated dickhead with strong opinions who should not be taken particularly seriously.

Fair enough. That makes the two of us, then.

 

[chrcoluk]

Shows how the UK nuclear investment dropped and got replaced with fossil fuels gas.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a75a748e5274a545822d2b9/Nuclear_Capacity_in_the_UK.pdf

 

[Chrispy_]

nice bit of reasoning There lad 10/10 well thought out statement
/s
most people have OTHER things that take priority that require finacing
such as that car and house you mentioned

you don't need solar panels on your roof to feed your family or get you to where you are going

if they want everybody to give up there ice cars and switch to renewable energy then it needs to be cheaper and more available then the other provided options

because frankly untill we all drown or choke to death nobody is going to give a crap.

for me to consider solar panels the upfront cost would need to be 0 and the payments would need to be no more then half of my current power bill

math just doesn't work out like that

and psa: I have a 12v solar system that runs lights and limited inverter power

It's clear to me that you don't understand how money works in the 21st century.

Without solar, your utility bill is $150/month.
With solar, your utility bill is $50/month and the monthly payments on your solar install are $100.

This is an example, but it's how many countries (including the US) already operate, if you pull your head out of the sand and take a proper look at the market. Sure, you'll pay more overall on a finance deal - perhaps $40K in total for a $25K installation over 20 years - but like a mortgage on your house, that's what you do if you can't afford the total cost up front.

This is the only correct answer to the question. Plus, you can get something like geothermal and basically pay nothing for heating and cooling year round. At least in the USA which is the best most advanced country the planet has ever seen. Honestly, stuff like solar is so last decade.

In an ideal world, surplus energy from the northern hemisphere in Summer could be exported to the Southern hemisphere to cover their higher demand through winter.

Unfortunately, transmission losses and the sheer scale of such an endeavour make it unfeasible. Electricity via the grid is bottlenecked by the grid itself, which is actually quite local - we're talking about a radius of under 100km per power station. There's enough transmission capacity to get power from power stations to major population areas but the national grids only really have enough transmission headroom to balance the load and cover a small number of local power station shutdowns/failures at any one time. Take Paris for example - even if France as a whole country generates 50% more energy than it needs, they couldn't afford to shut off more than two of the closest nuclear plants to Paris because there's not enough transmission capacity to transport power from elsewhere in the country.

 

[wNotyarD]

Unfortunately, transmission losses and the sheer scale of such an endeavour make it unfeasible. Electricity via the grid is bottlenecked by the grid itself, which is actually quite local - we're talking about a radius of under 100km per power station. There's enough transmission capacity to get power from power stations to major population areas but the national grids only really have enough transmission headroom to balance the load and cover a small number of local power station shutdowns/failures at any one time. Take Paris for example - even if France as a whole country generates 50% more energy than it needs, they couldn't afford to shut off more than two of the closest nuclear plants to Paris because there's not enough transmission capacity to transport power from elsewhere in the country.

Out of curiosity: what voltages are commonly used for transmission in Europe?
Here in Brazil, we have some very long lines that are either 600kV DC or 750kV/800kV AC, while the bulk of the localized transmission network uses 500kV/230kV AC.

 

[Chrispy_]

Out of curiosity: what voltages are commonly used for transmission in Europe?
Here in Brazil, we have some very long lines that are either 600kV DC or 750kV/800kV AC, while the bulk of the localized transmission network uses 500kV/230kV AC.

Varies from country to country and from region to region. The highest in the UK are 400kV if a quick Google search is to be believed, but that's only for the longer-distance hops on the largest pylons. I see warnings on smaller pylons of 200kV near my local trails and there was a smaller substation near my old home that warned "Danger - 150,000V" So I guess the meat and bones of the UK runs at 150-400kV

 

[Bones]

It's clear to me that you don't understand how money works in the 21st century.

Without solar, your utility bill is $150/month.
With solar, your utility bill is $50/month and the monthly payments on your solar install are $100.

This is an example, but it's how many countries (including the US) already operate, if you pull your head out of the sand and take a proper look at the market. Sure, you'll pay more overall on a finance deal - perhaps $40K in total for a $25K installation over 20 years - but like a mortgage on your house, that's what you do if you can't afford the total cost up front.

I can pay for alot of electricity with the additional 15K worth of cost stretched out over the course of 20 years and not worry about falling behind on payments, making it more expensive if you happen to be late on a payment.

That's also one hell of an interest rate..... 15K on top of 25K equalling 40K total, which is about 65-75% interest according to this.
My math may be a bit off but it's definitely well over 50%, that much I can say.

You also have to do maintenance too and that's NOT part of the cost layed out and that can become a necessity for several reasons.
Be it from damage by storms, things like limbs from a nearby tree falling off and hitting them.... Or birds pooping all over them making you have to go up and clean them so they work like they should (Highlight of your day... Right?)
It's also known fact these panels over time will degrade and won't make the same power output after a few years vs when new.

Exactly where you are is something else too - If you are in a place with alot of shade, that cuts into their output and not everything making the shade can be on your property meaning you really can't do a thing about it (Legally).
For example I have a BIG oak tree in the neighbor's yard that shades this place quite well, at least until about noon and there is a tree line with some big trees to the West, across the street from here that comes into play later.

What some have been saying and I must agree - The situation your home is in, what you can or cannot do, your own financial situation and other things will determine alot of it's worth to do or not, as in if it's "Feasable".

In other words, if it's worth it to you that's fine but every situation is different and it doesn't add up the same in every case for everyone.

 

[Chrispy_]

That's also one hell of an interest rate..... 15K on top of 25K equalling 40K total, which is about 75% interest according to this.

That's a perfectly normal interest rate for a long-term loan. Don't look at what you pay on a 25 year mortgage if you're not ready for a shock - For every $1 you borrow at 5% APR, you pay back $3.4

Energy costs have just about doubled in the last five years here in Europe. If you invest in solar panels, you're locking in most of your energy pricing for the lifespan of your solar array. Yes there are maintenance overheads, but they're relatively small even if they're not negligible.

Euro zone energy prices 2000-present:

The rising cost of energy in Europe is why there's a sudden surge in solar panels. Even though they're expensive to install, they're economically viable with break-even points as low as five years if you're on an expensive energy tariff.

 

[Bones]

That's a perfectly normal interest rate for a long-term loan. Don't look at what you pay on a 25 year mortgage if you're not ready for a shock!

Mine for this place is about 2.5%, fixed for 30 years.
I specified it be fixed or it was "No Deal" when the loan was made. Variable interest will rape you hard at times and that's why I specified "Fixed" when I did.

Now.... You may have interest rates that high where you are but mine aren't - Even my credit card itself isn't nearly that high (50% or higher).

 

[damric]

If it was up to me, rooms in my house would be powered by treadmills and stationary bicycles.

"Hey kids don't you want to play some video games?"

"Nah, too much work, we'll go play outside."

 

[Bones]

That's a perfectly normal interest rate for a long-term loan. Don't look at what you pay on a 25 year mortgage if you're not ready for a shock!

Energy costs have just about doubled in the last five years here in Europe. If you invest in solar panels, you're locking in most of your energy pricing for the lifespan of your solar array. Yes there are maintenance overheads, but they're relatively small even if they're not negligible.

Euro zone energy prices 2000-present:
View attachment 351851

The rising cost of energy in Europe is why there's a sudden surge in solar panels. Even though they're expensive to install, they're economically viable with break-even points as low as five years if you're on an expensive energy tariff.

What you have here goes right my point about where you are determines feasability.
Where you are, what you can do and the prices of it where you are..... All factors you have to deal with.

Personally, having panels here woudn't be a bad thing BUT with the other circumstances around me I have no control over, that makes it beyond a "Not Feasable" thing.

No - I don't like dealing with poop on what would be my panels either.

 

[Chrispy_]

What you have here goes right my point about where you are determines feasability.
Where you are, what you can do and the prices of it where you are..... All factors you have to deal with.

Personally, having panels here woudn't be a bad thing BUT with the other circumstances around me I have no control over, that makes it beyond a "Not Feasable" thing.

No - I don't like dealing with poop on what would be my panels either.

oh for sure. If you have a lot of red tape to install solar, high install costs, sketchy installers, and dirt-cheap energy from your utility provider, it's never going to be worth it for you.

If you don't own your house, it's difficult to justify too.

There are many factors - the biggest one being that the incumbent providers have numerous massive political and socio-economic advantages at the moment. It'll take time and legislation change for solar to be a viable commodity in some places. How long that takes depends on how environmentally-conscious the governments are and what incentives they have to move to non-polluting fuel sources.

Mine for this place is about 2.5%, fixed for 30 years.
I specified it be fixed or it was "No Deal" when the loan was made. Variable interest will rape you hard at times and that's why I specified "Fixed" when I did.

Now.... You may have interest rates that high where you are but mine aren't - Even my credit card itself isn't nearly that high (50% or higher).

2.5% fixed for 30 years means that you will finish your mortage having paid $2.10 for every 1.00 you borrowed, so why are you raising your eyebrows at my original example of paying back $40K on a 25K loan over 20 years?

 

[GerKNG]

because all we need is a handful of nuclear power plants and not this nonsense.

 

[Bones]

oh for sure. If you have a lot of red tape to install solar, high install costs, sketchy installers, and dirt-cheap energy from your utility provider, it's never going to be worth it for you.

If you don't own your house, it's difficult to justify too.

There are many factors - the biggest one being that the incumbent providers have numerous massive political and socio-economic advantages at the moment. It'll take time and legislation change for solar to be a viable commodity in some places. How long that takes depends on how environmentally-conscious the governments are and what incentives they have to move to non-polluting fuel sources.


2.5% fixed for 30 years means that you will finish your mortage having paid $2.10 for every 1.00 you borrowed, so why are you raising your eyebrows at my original example of paying back $40K on a 25K loan over 20 years?

EDITED HERE:
It means for every $1.00 borrowed I only have to pay back an additional 2.5 cents, Not $'s (Dollars) to pay it all back but it is also based on APR as you have correctly pointed out below.
END EDIT:

As to the rest, I see you get my point but there's more to it - For example when speaking of things you can't control, I can't just go over to the neighbor's place and tell them they have to cut down the tree so my panels can get enough light...... They'd probrably tell me to go somewhere and "Get Bent" over it.
Same for the treeline across the steet from here.

Regs here are actually in favor of panels more or less - You do have a few things concerning regs to deal with but nothing prohibitive.
There are other places here too (West coast) that are different, they regulate the hell out of it, charge you a fortune too for the proper permits and so on, not to mention it MUST be of a certain "This" or "That" to even be approved.

Yeah - Looking at you Kommiefornia on that one.

 

[kingo]

This is simple: solar panels cannot generate the energy needed for their supply chain, including manufacturing, distribution, and disposal, and yet generate a profit. If solar panels could make a profit without relying on fossil fuels or nuclear power, their market share would increase without relying on government subsidies, and electricity prices would fall at the same time.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Given our past interactions you should already know that I'm an opinionated dickhead with strong view who should not be taken particularly seriously.

Fortune favors the bold!

That's a perfectly normal interest rate for a long-term loan. Don't look at what you pay on a 25 year mortgage if you're not ready for a shock - For every $1 you borrow at 5% APR, you pay back $3.4

Energy costs have just about doubled in the last five years here in Europe. If you invest in solar panels, you're locking in most of your energy pricing for the lifespan of your solar array. Yes there are maintenance overheads, but they're relatively small even if they're not negligible.

Euro zone energy prices 2000-present:
View attachment 351851

The rising cost of energy in Europe is why there's a sudden surge in solar panels. Even though they're expensive to install, they're economically viable with break-even points as low as five years if you're on an expensive energy tariff.

Point taken, but this is a highly abnormal rate and while EU energy policy may be deeply flawed, it'll probably adjust over time and also improve once the conflicts in Eastern Europe subside.

 

[Chrispy_]

The steep interest rate you stated of course and your math is off.
It means for every $1.00 borrowed I only have to pay back an additional 2.5 cents, Not $'s (Dollars) to pay it all back.
Takes 100 cents to make a dollar and 2.5% of a dollar is exactly 2.5 cents.

PER YEAR.
EVERY YEAR.
FOR 30 YEARS.
You don't pay back 2.5% in total. It's 2.5% APR - annual percentage rate.
Most of your monthly mortgage repayments for the first 15 years or so barely cover the interest. It takes a good decade to make any kind of dent in the original loan because the first part of your term is mostly just interest on the loan.

Point taken, but this is a highly abnormal rate

Russian invasion of Ukraine > sanctions against buying Russian oil.

 

[Bones]

PER YEAR.
EVERY YEAR.
FOR 30 YEARS.
You don't pay back 2.5% in total. It's 2.5% APR - annual percentage rate.
Most of your monthly mortgage repayments for the first 15 years or so barely cover the interest. It takes a good decade to make any kind of dent in the original loan because the first part of your term is mostly just interest on the loan.


Russian invasion of Ukraine > sanctions against buying Russian oil.

You are correct but must say:
Been here for about 12 years and I'm already paying towards the principal itself, not just for interest alone.
Let's just say what's left of it is less than what was actually borrowed to get the home (Principal) at this point.

Yeah, you still have interest being charged annually (Of course) but what was tacked on by the charges at the beginning of the loan has already been met, so what's left at this point is less than what was borrowed originally.
I am currently in process of moving right now to another place and I can sell this one for as much or less than I gave for it years ago because of it.

 

[Chrispy_]

You are correct but must say:
Been here for about 12 years and I'm already paying towards the principal itself, not just for interest alone.
Let's just say what's left of it is less than what was actually borrowed to get the home (Principal) at this point.

Yeah, you still have interest being charged annually (Of course) but what was tacked on by the charges at the beginning of the loan has already been met, so what's left at this point is less than what was borrowed originally.
I am currently in process of moving right now to another place and I can sell this one for as much or less than I gave for it years ago because of it.

2.5% is nice, you got lucky and hopefully you do again when you move. It's around 60% less than over here and it's a full 1.1% lower than the record low it's ever been in my lifetime (caused by global economic shutdown after COVID).

Mortgage Rate in the United Kingdom averaged 5.70% for the 30 years prior to 2024, reaching an all time high of 8.87% in Sept '98 and a record low of 3.59% in Nov 2021.
When I said 5% it wasn't exaggeration to make a point, I was being optimistic

In terms of loans for a solar installation (to get back on topic) and ignoring grants under various government schemes (ECO4 and the SEG) - you can privately finance your own solar pretty easily. The first google search results are 8.9%, 7.9%, and 7.0% APR respectively - though it's worth noting that some of the utility providers themselves are also offering 0% finance packages (likely because of government subsidies).

At those rates, on a longer-term loan, you're paying back about 50% more than you actually borrow - but the benefit is obviously that you don't need to have the cash in the first place, and it's likely that energy costs will also go up by at least 50% in the same span of time. It's all wishy-washy prediction of course, but that's just how inflation and interest rates work, whether that's for current cost of energy via your utility provider, or interest on financing - you take your chances either way.

 

[Bones]

2.5% is nice, you got lucky and hopefully you do again when you move. It's around 60% less than over here and it's a full 1.1% lower than the record low it's ever been in my lifetime (caused by global economic shutdown after COVID).

Mortgage Rate in the United Kingdom averaged 5.70% for the 30 years prior to 2024, reaching an all time high of 8.87% in Sept '98 and a record low of 3.59% in Nov 2021.
When I said 5% it wasn't exaggeration to make a point, I was being optimistic

Got this one back when the market was good for buyers/rates were low so it was a good time to make a deal when I did it but the new home is different.
It's paid for in full but with all the trees around it (The place is just loaded with them), panels would be an even bigger waste so no - Ain't happening there either.

Things that are mandated for new home contruction like solar panels in certain places are just driving the cost of a new one up to the point many simply can't afford it, forced to opt for an apartment instead which is a dead-end in itself.
Even if you pay the rent for 100 years, you still woudn't own a single sq ft of it with next month's rent coming due as always.

 

[TheinsanegamerN]

I personally don't have this thing because, err, it's sunny 3 days a month. At most. And they only charge 8 cents a kW where I live.

Sorta same. During the summer? Oh they'd be GREAT. I could crank up the AC and not worry about it. As a bonus, one half of my roof points southward, so its always getting baked.

During the winter tho? It'd be next to useless. 3-4 months we get sunlight hours in the single digits. And since I have this fancy thing in my grid called a NUCLEAR POWER PLANT, I pay $0.06 per kWh. Meaning that there are two months, july and august, that my power bill goes over $100. August usually hits $200. Rest of the year? $40-60. During the winter it hits as low as $37 a month. $25 of that was required monthly fees.

So paying upwards of ten thousand dollars for a few kW of solar panels would, frankly, never pay for themselves. To make proper use, you'd need a battery system to use at night and charge with sun during the day, so and extra $3-5k minimum. And my provider wont do net metering unless you have a contract with them, and guess what they stopped approving a few years ago? It's "offered" sure, but good luck getting it.

It'd be different if I lived a couple hours south, had a few acres, and wanted to homestead as much as possible. Even with an EV I wouldn't use enough power to make them cost effective.

2.5% fixed for 30 years means that you will finish your mortage having paid $2.10 for every 1.00 you borrowed, so why are you raising your eyebrows at my original example of paying back $40K on a 25K loan over 20 years?

I'm not sure how you are getting that number. My mortgage is 4.125% fixed for 30 years, and according to my mortgage calulator, final payoff will result in my paying $40,000 in interest on a $63,600 loan. By your math I'd be paying over $120,000 in interest. The only way I get that math is if I include my insurance and tax escrow part of my mortgage payment, which doesnt count as interest.

Mortgage Calculator

Free mortgage calculator to find monthly payment, total home ownership cost, and amortization schedule with options for taxes, PMI, HOA, and early payoff.

www.calculator.net

I just ran it again. For 4.125%: total price: $80,000. Total loan amount: $64,000. Total interest: $47,663. Total payment: $111,663. To get to the $2.1 for every $1 you quote, you'd need a 6% interest rate. Not 2.5%. And, that's on 30 years. For 20 years, you need 8.6% to hit the $2.10 for every $1 borrowed level.

So if you had a $25k loan with a 20 year repayment, at a claimed 2.5% interest rate, and paid over $40k on it, you got ripped off HARD by somebody. (which, incidentally, happens a LOT with solar installation companies, every few years there's a news story around here of a solar company ripping people off with predatory loans full of hidden fees and interest).

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Dynamically balancing supply and demand is something that power grids have had to do from day one, that's why pumped storage is a thing. Renewables change the frequency of those peaks and troughs and the grid operators are coping with that difference by installing more classic batteries. And guess who's building those batteries... yup, it's the PRC.

So let me get this straight...because you seem to really not think before responding.

It's OK if you don't spend the money on batteries...because the grid will balance itself dynamically with batteries...because they already have to...so the batteries are what, and already sunk cost I have to deal with now as a function of energy cost? I cannot even believe those words get typed without you reflexively face palming. Anyone with half of a brain who hears that argument should be reflexively angry it is tolerated, and sad that their fellow human can make it with a presumably straight face.


Now...the other half of the discussion you should be having is why what I'm stating is flawed. I'll give you a hint, you haven't got it yet. Do you maybe want some help? Let me provide it, so maybe you can bring something of value to the table. Australia is a place, along with most deserts (both hot and cold). Right now there are people who walk out into salt plains, use a generator attached to a solar panel, and create salt crystal from underground salt water sources (the Agarias), who prove this is viable. Likewise, Florida has about 8 months out of the year where I know that people don't have to pay for a water heater. Lines attached to roofs create enough heat to make for some steamy showers in anything but November to February.

Yes, there are places where solar makes 100% sense...the problem is that it isn't everywhere... You should be deciding to die on the hill of technicality, where "every house" was meant as an intentional oversimplification to highlight a point...instead of a literal ask given that there are places with obvious problems with any one form of renewable energy...which is usually side-stepped by pulling out another.

 

[Steevo]

So let me get this straight...because you seem to really not think before responding.

Don't be rude.

Anyone with half of a brain who hears that argument should be reflexively angry it is tolerated, and sad that their fellow human can make it with a presumably straight face.

With that attitude no education would ever occur as everyone would walk around with a self-righteous anger all the time, which explains the decay to hearing opposing ideas and having discussions these days. I feel sad that you have this attitude, we all need to step back from the "gotcha" and anger and instead have discussions and if we aren't able to take the time to reply with factual points just go touch some grass, or smoke it...

 

[Chrispy_]

I'm not sure how you are getting that number. My mortgage is 4.125% fixed for 30 years, and according to my mortgage calulator, final payoff will result in my paying $40,000 in interest on a $63,600 loan. By your math I'd be paying over $120,000 in interest. The only way I get that math is if I include my insurance and tax escrow part of my mortgage payment, which doesnt count as interest.

All my numbers are hypothetical, and I spent less time calculating them then I have typing this sentence:
$1 * 1.025^30 is the total compound value of the loan for 30 years at 2.5%APR, and for the sake of such a simple/quick calculation it doesn't cover the reduction of the principal over time, the majority of which gets reduced in the final third of the term.

I was merely pointing out that interest on a 30 year, 2.5% APR mortgage isn't 2.5% total just once in 30 years, it's compound, cumulative interest that's 2.5% multiplied by the outstanding value thirty times.

I own my house outright, I paid of my mortgage in its entirety 18 years before the term finished because it's a huge financial drain weighed heavily in favour of the lender. If you can afford to pay off your mortgage it's the single biggest increase in disposable wealth most homeowners will make in their lifetime. Don't make the banks richer if you can avoid it. They're societal leeches enough already!

Regardless of percentages, the reality is that if you can't afford the $25K capital for a solar installation up front, you either don't install solar, or you finance it which will cost you considerably more than $25K. Here in the UK the top three solar panel installation private finance results for a £25K install were £39K, £37K, and £36K overall, which is a lot but still in line with the crazy electricity prices here, so they're still viable options despite the high 7-9% APR interest rates.

 

[ARF]

Why doesn't every house have solar installed?​

Because once upon a time someone with much money and power has decided that we should have centralised electricity supply systems - you name it - nuclear power plants, hydro electric power plants, etc.

Why don't you ask why we don't use the Nikola Tesla's inventions - high towers which transfer wireless electricity freely ?

Wardenclyffe Tower - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for roof-top solar panels - maybe as more and more people get enlightened, we will get there some day... maybe not... who knows...
The government influence on the peoples is too strong, and they can't think.

 

[v12dock]

I live in Illinois, and the SREC program gave me $15,000 back from the state and $24,000 back from the federal government. I have a fairly large 18kW DC system with Maxeon panels and Enphase microinverters. On average, I generate 110-120 kWh during sunny summer days. Even with the mid to high 90s temperatures this week and charging my electric truck, I'm still exporting about 5 kWh per day on average.

My utility company allows net metering, so I build up credits for winter use. I also have charging incentives for nighttime usage and real-time pricing. I keep my house around 77 degrees and installed a mini-split in the bedroom, set to 70 degrees. With all of this combined, I managed to get my power bill down to $1 last month. Keep in mind I still have to pay a meter hookup fee and an on-site generation fee. I managed to get credits for not using power during peak times. My ROI is approximately eight years, and I'm 1.5 years into owning the system.

The first thing I always ask people who are considering solar is whether they plan on staying in their home for at least ten years. Otherwise, there's a good chance they won't break even.