Intel Core Ultra Arrow Lake Preview

[_roman_]

Decent Advertising. Especially when you know the Formula P = U * I
(Which equals to Watt = Voltage multiplied with Ampere)

80 Watt down from 530 Watt, I estimate something like 15 Percent without calculator.

Just Insane. And 15 % is nothing worth mentioning when we come from 530Watts. That slide instantly moves me away. Someone has to cool that and someone has to pay for the power drawn. Electricity is not cheap in Europe.

 

[kapone32]

Can you even get a good canned bench for SM2 and CS2? I mean... its all about assets on screen and in game logic. And isn't CS2 still a big pile of doodoo?

City Skylines 2 is not in anyway doodoo (as you call it) It actually reminds me of Total War but much different. The traditional Total War engine would be 1 CPU core. Today City Skylines pegs my CPU at up to 40% usage. That increases as the size of your city increases and then you have 1 million individual humans doing things like riding the bus or getting on a train plus traffic jams everywhere. Service vehicles and truck traffic depend on how many factories and warehouses. Don't forget about Airports and their thousands of passengers and harbours. That is why CPU performance matters in this Game. All of what I just described is the Game but you called that Assets on Screen and Game logic but if your CPU is doodoo it will not run well at all. That Game even responds to storage used.

As far as Space Marine 2 goes it is a sign of what is to come. With all the cores available on modern desktops Space Marine 2 will use every Core you have. Once on Mission there are no load screens to speak of. but as you walk around the elevator the CPU is using other cores to get the level ready. Once again the CPU usage is in the 40%+ range.

Then I play at 4K native, where the CPU has to be fast enough to keep up with the GPU when Gaming and asking for all of those assets to build. My 7900X3D feeds my 7900XT 3-5 Gb/s faster than my 5800X3D at 4k. That makes all Games playable with smooth frames even City Skylines 2.

Of course turning the GPU assets to Ultra in Game will not give you the separation that running it at high as you have transitioned the GPU to dominate the pipeline. Every review admits that. I don't need Ultra as I discovered on these LED panels with high nits that turning the contrast and saturation up has a marked effect on enjoyment. Once you turn the Brightness down the colours on your screen will sing.

 

[AnotherReader]

Yeah but the dive makes me unreasonably happy, and as do those moments when you hit that 200FPS+ average in a game at 4k and it's awesome.

The point is, CPU is holding back GPU much more than during the 3xxx series, where you had the 5800x and 10900K then the 12 series and 5800x3d. By contrast 2024 CPUS are kind of meh. GPUs have been gaining 40%+ per generation while with the exception of x3d on CPU we're sitting at +15-20% last gen, and now +5% or in Intel's case -1%.

When the 5 series comes out, the gap between high end GPU and high end CPU is going to be even bigger, no wonder nvidia is going to sandbag the 5080.

It's a simple consequence of the difficulty of parallelizing the game code that runs on CPUs versus the ease of having embarrassingly parallel graphical workloads for the GPU. Moving the bottleneck back to the GPU is easy; crank up ray traced effects and even the 4090 will drop to its knees.

 

[RogueSix]

Kinda disappointing considering intel has a node advantage with this.

Kinda disappointing, dude? Kinda??? What?!? Just like Milton is kinda windy?

Dude. Arrow Lake is the most embarrassing product reveal ever. It is devastating for Intel.

They are making ARL on the currently most advanced processing node at the world's leading foundry.

Still, ARL can not even beat their own 10nm CPU that was made on a Neanderthal stone age process. LOL. How pathetic is that?

Let alone that ARL would come even close to beating AMD Zen 4 X3D CPUs. Those AMD CPUs are a full node behind and still kick Arrow Lake to the curb.

Intel rekt. For real this time. This is a declaration of total bankruptcy.

Until today, you could reasonably assume that Intel was only being held back by their ancient manufacturing processes. A lot of people assumed that Intel would be (at least) on par with AMD if given the same node.

Now we know that the problems at Intel lie MUCH deeper. They have an actual node ADVANTAGE with ARL now and still can't even come close to beating AMD's two year old CPUs. Wow. What a complete epic failure of the most disastrous proportions.

It's not just IFS that sucks. Intel sucks as a whole. They can't keep up with TSMC. They can't keep up with AMD, ARM, Apple, Qualcomm, nVidia, anyone. Intel's designs and architectures are garbage. Arrow Lake is the final and definitive proof of that. Most advanced node on the planet and can not compete with two year old competitor architectures.

This is completely abysmal and I don't even know what to say... AMD 9000 X3D can't come soon enough. Please hurry up, AMD, and put an end to Intel's misery.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Kinda disappointing, dude? Kinda??? What?!? Just like Milton is kinda windy?

Dude. Arrow Lake is the most embarrassing product reveal ever. It is devastating for Intel.

They are making ARL on the currently most advanced processing node at the world's leading foundry.

Still, ARL can not even beat their own 10nm CPU that was made on a Neanderthal stone age process. LOL. How pathetic is that?

Let alone that ARL would come even close to beating AMD Zen 4 X3D CPUs. Those AMD CPUs are a full node behind and still kick Arrow Lake to the curb.

Intel rekt. For real this time. This is a declaration of total bankruptcy.

Until today, you could reasonably assume that Intel was only being held back by their ancient manufacturing processes. A lot of people assumed that Intel would be (at least) on par with AMD if given the same node.

Now we know that the problems at Intel lie MUCH deeper. They have an actual node ADVANTAGE with ARL now and still can't even come close to beating AMD's two year old CPUs. Wow. What a complete epic failure of the most disastrous proportions.

It's not just IFS that sucks. Intel sucks as a whole. They can't keep up with TSMC. They can't keep up with AMD, ARM, Apple, Qualcomm, nVidia, anyone. Intel's designs and architectures are garbage. Arrow Lake is the final and definitive proof of that. Most advanced node on the planet and can not compete with two year old competitor architectures.

This is completely abysmal and I don't even know what to say... AMD 9000 X3D can't come soon enough. Please hurry up, AMD, and put an end to Intel's misery.

It's just silicon, hard to be more than kinda disappointed my expectations after meteor lake weren't very high to begin with and were even lower after Zen5% came out.

This is likely decent enough for those that hate amd products and only care about general performance.

This year has sucked from all hardware makers Intel is just late to join the club.... Can 9000X3d save this generation for gamers it remains to be seen but I'm not holding my breath for more than 3-8% over 7000X3D....

 

[BoggledBeagle]

Dude. Arrow Lake is the most embarrassing product reveal ever.
...

This is completely abysmal and I don't even know what to say...

Better say nothing next time. What you wrote is embarrasing.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Hi W1zz or anyone in the know . I read most of the slides but it's just marketing gibberish. Does it finally have AVX-512 support without buts or ifs?

 

[Ayhamb99]

AMD had +2 percent game performance and Intel has -5. Really. Bad year. Nobody is being a fanboy except you here.

Please enlighten me about how I am being a fanboy, all I did was point out how the majority of the disappointment for Zen 5 was due to misleading marketing overhype, anyone who is reasonable would see that Zen 5 is alright but got its reputation spoiled due to AMD marketing blundering. I just have grown tired and exhausted of the constant forum in fighting due to AMD vs Intel BS.

I already wrote Arrow lake does not look special at all and at best is going to be mediocre, I am going to wait for reviews anyways because I don't trust 1st party claims.

Me quit it? Sorry I pointed out the massive double standards people generally have on TPU when it comes to Intel. I don’t care to promote or fall on the sword for any company. The only “cringe” thing is the obvious stark difference between general trending comments between the two releases.

We must have completely different perspectives then on TPU, because for me it has been the opposite with seeing more double standards in favour of AMD over the years of reading reviews here, people will happily give them the benefit of the doubt no matter what and be lenient, but will be very quick to demonise Intel (not that they are free of criticism though, the way they handled the degradation issues was scumbag behaviour.) I talked about this in a different thread so I won't be repeating it here.

I do not know what you are seeing but all I see with this is that Arrow Lake is going to be essentially just like Zen 5 in terms of improvement and that is the opinion I saw from other posters as well.
The difference is that AMD’s marketing overhyped Zen 5's gaming performance, which set people up for disappointment during launch reviews when the gains were minimal. Intel hasn’t made bold performance gains claims for Arrow Lake, hell they even showed it being significantly slower in 3 titles, so expectations are more grounded, which is why the reactions aren’t as harsh.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Hi W1zz or anyone in the know . I read most of the slides but it's just marketing gibberish. Does it finally have AVX-512 support without buts or ifs?

The ES samples lacked AVX512 afaik and it isn't listed on their website.

Intel® Core™ Ultra 9 Processor 285K (36M Cache, up to 5.70 GHz) - Product Specifications | Intel

Intel® Core™ Ultra 9 Processor 285K (36M Cache, up to 5.70 GHz) quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.

www.intel.com

 

[AnotherReader]

Hi W1zz or anyone in the know . I read most of the slides but it's just marketing gibberish. Does it finally have AVX-512 support without buts or ifs?

Chips and Cheese note that E cores still lack AVX-512.

 

[Super Firm Tofu]

Hi W1zz or anyone in the know . I read most of the slides but it's just marketing gibberish. Does it finally have AVX-512 support without buts or ifs?

The ES samples lacked AVX512 afaik and it isn't listed on their website.

Intel® Core™ Ultra 9 Processor 285K (36M Cache, up to 5.70 GHz) - Product Specifications | Intel

Intel® Core™ Ultra 9 Processor 285K (36M Cache, up to 5.70 GHz) quick reference with specifications, features, and technologies.

www.intel.com

Yep.

 

[kapone32]

Please enlighten me about how I am being a fanboy, all I did was point out how the majority of the disappointment for Zen 5 was due to misleading marketing overhype, anyone who is reasonable would see that Zen 5 is alright but got its reputation spoiled due to AMD marketing blundering. I just have grown tired and exhausted of the constant forum in fighting due to AMD vs Intel BS.

I already wrote Arrow lake does not look special at all and at best is going to be mediocre, I am going to wait for reviews anyways because I don't trust 1st party claims.


We must have completely different perspectives then on TPU, because for me it has been the opposite with seeing more double standards in favour of AMD over the years of reading reviews here, people will happily give them the benefit of the doubt no matter what and be lenient, but will be very quick to demonise Intel (not that they are free of criticism though, the way they handled the degradation issues was scumbag behaviour.) I talked about this in a different thread so I won't be repeating it here.

I do not know what you are seeing but all I see with this is that Arrow Lake is going to be essentially just like Zen 5 in terms of improvement and that is the opinion I saw from other posters as well.
The difference is that AMD’s marketing overhyped Zen 5's gaming performance, which set people up for disappointment during launch reviews when the gains were minimal. Intel hasn’t made bold performance gains claims for Arrow Lake, hell they even showed it being significantly slower in 3 titles, so expectations are more grounded, which is why the reactions aren’t as harsh.

That is because AMD gave you at least 15% clock or IPC improvement with AM4. That fact allowed reviewers to see the improvements in the CPUs they sampled and say as much. The best example of what I am talking about was the 3300X. You could not find that chip for like 6 months. AMD have been so good by generation that that matters now. Then they have expanded what a CPU is with 4 different platforms for AM5.

In the meantime Intel (not bad chips) was using Raw power to try to keep up. Now we have a chip with no HT when Intel are the company that made HT what it became. It is not hard to wonder what Intel are doing. Better give it back to the engineers look at what happened to Boeing when it went Corporate. These chips are not cheap either. There is literally a $20 difference in the chips without an IGPU. That means either the KF parts are too expensive or the K parts are too expensive.

 

[Readlight]

What 2. is in inside? Ultra what?
2. Ultras? What ultra?

 

[Wirko]

Chips and Cheese note that E cores still lack AVX-512.

We don't even know if P cores have AVX-512. We'll see when and if LGA 1851 Xeons with no E-cores arrive.

Intel is actually renaming that to AVX10.

 

[Dr. Dro]

We don't even know if P cores have AVX-512. We'll see when and if LGA 1851 Xeons with no E-cores arrive.

Intel is actually renaming that to AVX10.

AVX 10 is actually a superseding instruction set, the interesting thing about it is that the 512-bit FPU is now optional.

Mmm, this new processor line is great, but still seems a bit of a hard sell to high-end Raptor Lake owners. It's a bit faster, and a bit more efficient, that's about it. There doesn't seem to be anything new brought to the table when stacked against refresh-wave Z790's, and retaining the "x86-64 v3" instructions is not doing it any favors. Hopefully, the pricing is good.

 

[AnotherReader]

We don't even know if P cores have AVX-512. We'll see when and if LGA 1851 Xeons with no E-cores arrive.

Intel is actually renaming that to AVX10.

By this point, I would expect the client P cores to have no AVX-512 hardware.

 

[DavidC1]

With Zen6 it was server type workloads that got the huge upgrade with Intel the damn E cores two things IDGAF about lol for those that love both good for them smh.

Dude, those "damn E cores" are highly likely going to be the next P core in the next generation.

32% Int, 72% FP over Gracemont in Raptorlake, while the P core Lion Cove is a mere 9% over Raptor Cove means that possibly there's only 5% or less gap between the two.

That's with the P cores being 3x the size. Reddit rumors are the E core chief is going to lead the combined team in the future.

 

[regs]

Would be interesting to see E-core single thread and multi thread benchmarked.

 

[Wirko]

Dude, those "damn E cores" are highly likely going to be the next P core in the next generation.

32% Int, 72% FP over Gracemont in Raptorlake, while the P core Lion Cove is a mere 9% over Raptor Cove means that possibly there's only 5% or less gap between the two.

That's with the P cores being 3x the size. Reddit rumors are the E core chief is going to lead the combined team in the future.

Why not combine the two designs into one? I expect this to happen in the future.

 

[N/A]

Electricity is not cheap in Europe.

Well, 550 at the wall that's pretty low for a 4090. probably underutilised. CPU total power is very suspiciously sitting at 125W and that's the least demanding game, to get 165 difference in warhammer 14900K must be running at 250W and that's not possibe for a game. This could mean the results have been doctored. And they say in their slides, at 125W and 250W the performance is exactly the same.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Dude, those "damn E cores" are highly likely going to be the next P core in the next generation.

32% Int, 72% FP over Gracemont in Raptorlake, while the P core Lion Cove is a mere 9% over Raptor Cove means that possibly there's only 5% or less gap between the two.

That's with the P cores being 3x the size. Reddit rumors are the E core chief is going to lead the combined team in the future.

I am curious what locking games to them would do and if they are actually that close. I know they are good at CB though for people who do that for a living.....

 

[Minus Infinity]

Wow, rip gamers..... 2024 has been rough for gamers.

Hopefully the 9800X3D can save the day.

Kinda disappointing considering intel has a node advantage with this.


But it does have AI to save the day said nobody in their right mind ever lol.

I'd be more worried about Nvidia's proposed 5000 series pricing: 5090 $2-2.5K, 5080 $1.2-1.5K and claims that 5070 is barely faster than 4070 Ti and will cost $700.

It's not like Raptor Lake wasn't already fast at gaming, so similar performance using a lot less power is ok by me. At least AMD delivered improvements and not regressions at lower TDP for 9600/9700/9900X cpu.

It'll be a little disappointing for Intel if this generation is not more power-efficient. It uses TSMC N3B for CPU, N6 for I/O, and N5 for graphics. Ryzen 9000 uses TSMC N4B for CPU and N6 for everything else.

Also Intel's tiles on a silicon interposer with all CPU cores on a single tile should be more efficient than AMD's solution, and this should be more apparent near idle.

AMD uses N4P, there is no such thing as N4B. Intel using N3B isn't all good, it's regarded as the worst new process node upgrade in TSMC's history, offering minimal improvements over N5. N3E and N3P are much improved. Such a shame we didn't get to see 20A used for Arrow Lake. Now we have to wait for Panther Lake which is mobile only, to see 18A in action and Nova Lake for desktop which might be on 16A or 14A in 2 years.

The 9800X3D sounds GRRREAT but can't be the answer because it's way too expensive and most gamers won’t go for it. We need 'progress' across the board with better gaming CPUs at all price points. That'll drive improvements with developers having the incentive to push those untouched heavier boundaries.

WTaF. So you know the 9800X3D price? You'll actually know soon and it will be a surprise. I suspect it's going to be $399 and leaks show it smashing the 7800X3D across the board, games and productivity.

 

[Garrus]

Please enlighten me about how I am being a fanboy, all I did was point out how the majority of the disappointment for Zen 5 was due to misleading marketing overhype, anyone who is reasonable would see that Zen 5 is alright but got its reputation spoiled due to AMD marketing blundering. I just have grown tired and exhausted of the constant forum in fighting due to AMD vs Intel BS.

I already wrote Arrow lake does not look special at all and at best is going to be mediocre, I am going to wait for reviews anyways because I don't trust 1st party claims.


We must have completely different perspectives then on TPU, because for me it has been the opposite with seeing more double standards in favour of AMD over the years of reading reviews here, people will happily give them the benefit of the doubt no matter what and be lenient, but will be very quick to demonise Intel (not that they are free of criticism though, the way they handled the degradation issues was scumbag behaviour.) I talked about this in a different thread so I won't be repeating it here.

I do not know what you are seeing but all I see with this is that Arrow Lake is going to be essentially just like Zen 5 in terms of improvement and that is the opinion I saw from other posters as well.
The difference is that AMD’s marketing overhyped Zen 5's gaming performance, which set people up for disappointment during launch reviews when the gains were minimal. Intel hasn’t made bold performance gains claims for Arrow Lake, hell they even showed it being significantly slower in 3 titles, so expectations are more grounded, which is why the reactions aren’t as harsh.

Well I won't make it personal. +2 percent is not alright for AMD. -5 percent for Intel is even more not alright.

We are in the midst of the biannual marketing cycle but they are pushing useless products because the CPU and GPU market is an "upgrader's market". What that means is we all already have access to commodity pricing in compute perfomance. The only reason to spend more money is for upgraded performance and so, there is no real market for new product at all right now.

Just buy the 8600G for $145 USD for a cheap PC and the 7950X for rendering and the 9800X3D for highest refresh gaming when it comes out. Otherwise probably best to sit tight with older product right now.

I just checked, the new Arrow Lake i5 product and motherboard is $806.40 Canadian bucks after tax. Nope. Just buy an older <$100 motherboard and a faster older CPU instead.

I cannot wait for this. Give me that Asrock OCF, 265K, And teamgroup xtreem 48gb ddr5 8200.

there's no advantage to raising the memory speed at the cost of latency, it is just marketing fluff

 

[DavidC1]

I am curious what locking games to them would do and if they are actually that close. I know they are good at CB though for people who do that for a living.....

Games are quite sensitive to configurations that dramatically change, which is Skymont with shared L2 cache over P cores with private L2, plus when 4 or more cores are needed, it'll have effectively 1MB per core. Private caches are faster because it has less contention.

I think it might do decent but few cases will exist where it'll be quite weak. Consistency is important.

Why not combine the two designs into one? I expect this to happen in the future.

Maybe it'll happen. It is true though making a targeted design is better than a general purpose one. They might still end up doing just one like AMD did with 5/5c if the differences doing a unique, targeted design is not big.

 

[Nhonho]

I wish Intel could release competitive CPUs again in order to prices come down, but it looks like it won't happen this time.

With an AM5 motherboard, you'll be able to buy and install a new AM5 CPU for (at least) the next 5 years without having to change your motherboard.

And in these slides, Intel didn't mention that its new CPUs will have AVX-512, like the AM5 CPUs do, and it also didn't show any competitors to AMD's "3D cache" CPUs.

I don't see the need for so many E-cores. Home applications do not use as many cores. Very heavy operations, such as encoding videos, are already done very quickly by dedicated units in the GPU.

Intel should have added more L2 and L3 cache memory to improve gaming performance, instead of adding this excessive amount of E-cores.

For me, the 265K model should have only been 8P+6E with a much larger amount of cache memory (an L3 cache with at least 64 MB).

For these reasons, I still think the AM5 platform is more advantageous.