Upgrade from 13700k to 9800X3D (RAM issues?)

[Caring1]

Now, my real concern here is the RAM, as i'm using a XMP RAM based on my previous QVL motherboard list and no way i'm going to swap it

Good luck with your new Intel system if you refuse to swap the Ram.

 

[kDude]

Here's my current stable 6000 64GB:
View attachment 371688

This is on a $104 used MSI B650M A WiFi. These sticks are not on the QVL. Have to run GDM tho or they're not happy.

Next upgrade is the $25 hardware 12pin tpm module so i can turn of fTPM 2.0

Once you install the tpm module will the motherboard automatically disable ftpm or do you have to do it manually?
Really looking to upgrade to a 9800x3d and the ftpm stutter came up in my searches.Some say it was fixed and others say it's still a thing.Having a physical tpm chip fixes the issue tho from what I've heard.

 

[ir_cow]

@Jtuck9 easy enough, but no gurentee that CL26 is possible at just 1.45v. Why not get 6000 CL30 and just save yourself time? Is it because 8000 kit is cheaper?

 

[phanbuey]

Once you install the tpm module will the motherboard automatically disable ftpm or do you have to do it manually?
Really looking to upgrade to a 9800x3d and the ftpm stutter came up in my searches.Some say it was fixed and others say it's still a thing.Having a physical tpm chip fixes the issue tho from what I've heard.

So you have to enable it in the security section of the bios and disable the AMD ftpm -- keep in mind; Installing a TPM Module and then installing a fresh windows 11 24H2 pro with VM features enabled on top of that FORCED VBS ON and created a UEFI partition (Credential Guard with UEFI lock) to keep it on with the default install - when this is done disabling Core Isolation/Memory Integrity no longer disable VBS. It's almost impossible to disable it afterwards without a fully shutting off SVM / VT-X - the regular powershell/registry settings will no longer work.

I use this machine for work 80% of the time, so for me I leave these on - but they do negatively impact performance and can crush your lows in some games.

I havent personally ever experienced amd fTPM stutter so I can't speak to that, but I just wanted to give you a heads up in case you do install it w/ 24h2 pro.

 

[kDude]

So you have to enable it in the security section of the bios and disable the AMD ftpm -- keep in mind; Installing a TPM Module and then installing a fresh windows 11 24H2 pro with VM features enabled on top of that FORCED VBS ON and created a UEFI partition (Credential Guard with UEFI lock) to keep it on with the default install - when this is done disabling Core Isolation/Memory Integrity no longer disable VBS. It's almost impossible to disable it afterwards without a fully shutting off SVM / VT-X - the regular powershell/registry settings will no longer work.

I use this machine for work 80% of the time, so for me I leave these on - but they do negatively impact performance and can crush your lows in some games.

I havent personally ever experienced amd fTPM stutter so I can't speak to that, but I just wanted to give you a heads up in case you do install it w/ 24h2 pro.

So a physical tpm chip will prevent me from disabling vbs?
I was gonna buy a tpm chip simply to avoid tpm stutter incase I do get it in my future gaming pc since people have reported a physical tpm chip can avoid the whole ftpm stutter issue. If the tpm chip will stop me from disabling VBS I might have to reconsider getting it.
Il need to see what effect vbs has on my frametime when I get my hands on my new rig.If frametime stays flat il probably leave it on but if its going to cause frametime spikes il turn it off.
Don't some games require tpm to run aswell because their anti cheat requires it?

For me game smoothness is my number 1 priority.I even have CFG disabled because I noticed it was causing stutters in warhammer totalwar.

 

[phanbuey]

So a physical tpm chip will prevent me from disabling vbs?
I was gonna buy a tpm chip simply to avoid tpm stutter incase I do get it in my future gaming pc since people have reported a physical tpm chip can avoid the whole ftpm stutter issue. If the tpm chip will stop me from disabling VBS I might have to reconsider getting it.
Il need to see what effect vbs has on my frametime when I get my hands on my new rig.If frametime stays flat il probably leave it on but if its going to cause frametime spikes il turn it off.
Don't some games require tpm to run aswell because their anti cheat requires it?

For me game smoothness is my number 1 priority.I even have CFG disabled because I noticed it was causing stutters in warhammer totalwar.

Yeah some games are moving to VBS enclaves for anticheat -- right now i run a powershell script that lets me toggle.

You CAN disable VBS, it's just 10x harder than in prior windows versions. Im not sure if it's the new TPM chip itself or just clean installing 24h2 with everything enabled is causing it, but it's actually impossible to disable it without a special MS script.

 

[Jtuck9]

@Jtuck9 easy enough, but no gurentee that CL26 is possible at just 1.45v. Why not get 6000 CL30 and just save yourself time? Is it because 8000 kit is cheaper?

Yea, I found some 8000 Viper Xtreme 5's on offer (not Amazon). Putting together a sff build, so it's all a bit of an experiment...

 

[Cowboystrekk]

That ram is 99% certain Hynix M-die or Hynix A-die in dual rank. It will work, but it may take som manual adjustments as dual rank in general is a bit more difficult to work with. If you have a good imc on your 9800X3D expo at 6400 will work

 

[LittleBro]

I've been running two different DDR4 kits with Zen 3 for almost 4 years and both were non-EXPO, not even on mobo's QVL list.
Then, I've read few articles regarding how even EXPO-certified RAM kit was not fully compatible with Zen CPU.

It's not like it won't work, if it is not on the QVL list. Basically, both XMP and EXPO are just timings and VDIMM profiles that are abused by marketing as instant overclock.

 

[londiste]

QVL doesn't matter. Take it from me who reviews tons of Memory kits on "unsupported" motherboards.

The only problem I had once was that some kits with JEDEC 5600 will not boot XMP/EXPO on a really old BIOS for the AM5. It was strange and not just one vendor or motherboard. Never figured it out either. Just narrowed it to to the JEDEC base profile.

Don't fall for EXPO. While it does have a few extra values, no one sets them aggressively and the defaults from the BIOS using XMP is the often exactly the same.

2x32GB at 6400 is totally possible on AND. But you will have to enforce 1:1 ratio and hope your IMC is up to the task. Otherwise just run 6000-6200. Easy to change the frequency in the BIOS. Single drop down menu

It depends a lot on how you view things.
- If you are happy and willing to test and tweak then yeah, pretty much every kit will work. The downside here depends on what motherboard (or tools) you have handy and how often you end up resetting your BIOS fro whatever reason - AMD tends to do rather useful updates in BIOSes regularly or at least has been so far with AM4 and AM5. Unless your motherboard saves configuration separately and/or you have something to write to SPD the memory settings will need to be reapplied. Maybe its fine for you and that is cool but it is an extra hassle.
- If you would like things to just work and be optimal then the kit OP has will likely work but be suboptimal, at least until enforcing 1:1 ratio - that may or may not work.
- A EXPO kit in QVL means you select EXPO in BIOS and forget about the rest. If it does not work off to warranty you go

I've been running two different DDR4 kits with Zen 3 for almost 4 years and both were non-EXPO, not even on mobo's QVL list.
Then, I've read few articles regarding how even EXPO-certified RAM kit was not fully compatible with Zen CPU.

There is a whole lot of difference between doing this early and late in memory standard lifecycle. The difference in trying to run a DDR5 kit 3 years ago vs today is huge. IMCs, memory modules and BIOSes all have come a long way. For comparison, DDR4 was introduced to desktop segment back in 2015.

 

[kapone32]

RAM Knowledge comes with experience. Expo is something to look for on AM5 boards. Especially if you want tighter timings and lower voltage. All kits should basically work though.

 

[Waldorf]

@Hankieroseman
only someone that doesnt know what QVL means would say that.

none of the kits in the past 10y i bought for myself were QVL and worked as specced, some even better, and the single QVL kit that "everyone" in forums recommend for AM4 (gskill 3600C16),
didnt even do more than jedec, and required a cheap corsair vengeance 3600/18 (which most would state to stay away from) to set xmp manually before swapping ktis,
to make them work.

just because a mfg has tested a certain mb-ram combo to be working, is a guide for buyers, not a guarantee (that it will work as specced).

@londiste
just because ram is on the QVL list, doesn't mean you can turn on expo/xmp and be done.
anything above jedec specs should be tested with HCI/TM5 or similar (not memetest86/+ stuff, as thats for defective ram) unless of course you dont care about your data..

and short of the exceptions, most ktis with decent quality dies will do better perf with manual tweaked primary timings (+ RFC/RTP/WR/WL), than using xmp/expo, most of the time even with tuned sec/tert,
so its like 10 things to write down, so you can apply them after bios update.

 

[londiste]

@londiste
just because ram is on the QVL list, doesn't mean you can turn on expo/xmp and be done.

This is exactly what having RAM is on QVL list means.

 

[phanbuey]

@Hankieroseman
only someone that doesnt know what QVL means would say that.

none of the kits in the past 10y i bought for myself were QVL and worked as specced, some even better, and the single QVL kit that "everyone" in forums recommend for AM4 (gskill 3600C16),
didnt even do more than jedec, and required a cheap corsair vengeance 3600/18 (which most would state to stay away from) to set xmp manually before swapping ktis,
to make them work.

just because a mfg has tested a certain mb-ram combo to be working, is a guide for buyers, not a guarantee (that it will work as specced).

@londiste
just because ram is on the QVL list, doesn't mean you can turn on expo/xmp and be done.
anything above jedec specs should be tested with HCI/TM5 or similar (not memetest86/+ stuff, as thats for defective ram) unless of course you dont care about your data..

and short of the exceptions, most ktis with decent quality dies will do better perf with manual tweaked primary timings (+ RFC/RTP/WR/WL), than using xmp/expo, most of the time even with tuned sec/tert,
so its like 10 things to write down, so you can apply them after bios update.

nowdays gigabyte and msi boards will tighten them for you, you don't even need to know the timings really.

 

[dgianstefani]

@Hankieroseman
only someone that doesnt know what QVL means would say that.

none of the kits in the past 10y i bought for myself were QVL and worked as specced, some even better, and the single QVL kit that "everyone" in forums recommend for AM4 (gskill 3600C16),
didnt even do more than jedec, and required a cheap corsair vengeance 3600/18 (which most would state to stay away from) to set xmp manually before swapping ktis,
to make them work.

just because a mfg has tested a certain mb-ram combo to be working, is a guide for buyers, not a guarantee (that it will work as specced).

@londiste
just because ram is on the QVL list, doesn't mean you can turn on expo/xmp and be done.
anything above jedec specs should be tested with HCI/TM5 or similar (not memetest86/+ stuff, as thats for defective ram) unless of course you dont care about your data..

and short of the exceptions, most ktis with decent quality dies will do better perf with manual tweaked primary timings (+ RFC/RTP/WR/WL), than using xmp/expo, most of the time even with tuned sec/tert,
so its like 10 things to write down, so you can apply them after bios update.

Furthermore, when manufacturers test QVL, they do so with golden sample CPU IMC.

 

[Waldorf]

@londiste
the last time i checked, qvl means quailified vendor list (showing that certain sticks have been tested, by the mb mfg).
nowhere is mentioned that its going to be stable, or that it will run as specced.
completely ignoring that amd/intel will consider most "above jedec" clocks as ocing, and not automatically stable.
besides, wanting to tweak stuff and then not willing to invest a few hours/a day to verify stabilty, great idea, but yeah, tells me enough..

 

[Assimilator]

I've been running two different DDR4 kits with Zen 3 for almost 4 years and both were non-EXPO, not even on mobo's QVL list.
Then, I've read few articles regarding how even EXPO-certified RAM kit was not fully compatible with Zen CPU.

It's not like it won't work, if it is not on the QVL list. Basically, both XMP and EXPO are just timings and VDIMM profiles that are abused by marketing as instant overclock.

DDR4 is a completely different beast to DDR5. 32GB DDR4 modules are EZ mode for pretty much any AMD/Intel CPU with a DDR4 IMC, but DDR5 is a whole 'nother beast together. That's the whole reason why CUDIMMs exist for DDR5, because IMCs just can't drive standard UDIMMs at the frequencies they run at.

 

[Jtuck9]

DDR4 is a completely different beast to DDR5. 32GB DDR4 modules are EZ mode for pretty much any AMD/Intel CPU with a DDR4 IMC, but DDR5 is a whole 'nother beast together. That's the whole reason why CUDIMMs exist for DDR5, because IMCs just can't drive standard UDIMMs at the frequencies they run at.

I wonder where something like "NitroPath" fits in? Outside of the marketing suite