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Arrow Lake Retested with Latest 24H2 Updates and 0x114 Microcode

W1zzard

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Was the AMD 9600X / 9700X retested since, as they received also extra performance since launch?
No, this article is about Arrow Lake and the new patches
 
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We won't know where gaming performance really is until the update next month combined with the 114 microcode.

Won't be huge gains of course. Hallock already said it would be single digit percentages.
 

ael

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I just built an ultra 7-265k rig and my partner built a brand new 9800x3d and his system cannot even play POE2 for example without it constantly crashing his system. I can play everything just fine so I'm pretty happy with the stability Intel has to offer.
Mind you I jumped from a gen 7 chip to the newest so maybe I'm just going through a honeymoon phase still.

I appreciate both systems but I'm still curious how both will hold up over time.
 
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Remember when companies used to release products after the supporting updates and patches for OS and firmware were already out there months in advance....

Now it seems almost like they are just pulling a SpaceX style launch of "hey we intended for it work/land, but where it has failed we'll learn from it" - pretending that none of the work done has been rushed or bodged in some way in spite of having ample opportunity to ensure that wasn't the case.

Credit to the ARC GPU team for mostly learning that lesson (the hard way) - I guess having the axe dangling overhead is a great motivator.
 
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Remember when companies used to release products after the supporting updates and patches for OS and firmware were already out there months in advance....

Now it seems almost like they are just pulling a SpaceX style launch of "hey we intended for it work/land, but where it has failed we'll learn from it" - pretending that none of the work done has been rushed or bodged in some way in spite of having ample opportunity to ensure that wasn't the case.

Credit to the ARC GPU team for mostly learning that lesson (the hard way) - I guess having the axe dangling overhead is a great motivator.
There is this misguided idea that shorter time to market is better. In isolation, yes, a shorter time to market is better because less time spent on something = lower cost and time is also money on the demand side... but... when you string short time to market together year after year and keep releasing half broken shit, you're creating technical debt and at some point, you're in so deep you start releasing shit with straight up blocking issues in them - and this is something every company really actually wants to avoid because it hurts the brand, the product, and may even destroy its market momentum entirely. We're seeing many of these events lately - stuff is fundamentally broken in places, and only because they think the projected % of users that may encounter it is low'ish, it is not given due attention to begin with, and backlogged. But by doing that, you're also just not seeing the issue might be bigger than that.

It seems like hardware has gone the way of software in that sense. We always had technical debt there, even prior to Agile way of working, but now, they have found a method to make it part of the deal by pushing out stuff early and in open beta. Except they don't tell you that. You're helping products to improve further now :)
 
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Thanks for the re-review.
Looks like a major hardware flaw can not be amended with software.
 

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Moving back to single-threaded cores doesn't hurt multi-thread applications. SMT was introduced to improve performance when CPUs were a single core, and then to improve thread count when core count was low because Intel was stuck on large processes. Now that we have advanced processes and can fit dozens of cores on a single CPU, Intel has shown they can get much better results by carefully optimizing smaller, single-threaded cores instead of wasting space on the components needed for SMT. Just look at the benchmarks. It matches the 9950X in multi-thread Blender rendering and bests it in Cinebench multi-thread, despite having 8 less threads and most of its cores running significantly slower than the full cores on the 9950X.

Every company has bad launches. Just look at the review for the initial Ryzen 7 1800X. https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-7-1800x/16.html It had many of the same problems Arrow Lake has. Poor game performance with new architecture, apps/OS needed to be optimized for the dual-CCD design, etc. I'm not saying Arrow Lake is great, if you just look at performance it's a sidegrade to Rapter Lake and Zen 5. I'm saying the new architecture is the right direction. I will not be surprised when AMD follows suite with single-threading cores and big/little desktop CPUs in the next generation or two. It has obvious advantages to performance.
There are a few things wrong with your comments.

First of all, AMD didn't copy Intels big little approach. AMD uses the same architecture between standard and c cores that avoids pretty much all the issues Intel is running into with their P/E core approach. I think Big Little is a good approach, AMD just came out with the right solution for x86/Windows - Intels solution requires too much bespoke per application tuning to work optimally which is not too dissimilar to the R9 X3D scheduling issues AMD has.

Next, saying Intel removing Hyperthreading is an MT win as they can just scale up core count and Hyperthreading wastes space is ridiculous. I'll accept that removing Hyperthreading probably enables ARLs ST win, but I assure you the space wasted by HT is relatively small vs. Needing to add more cores to compensate.

And funny how you choose to say Arrow Lake is impressive because it ties/beats the 9950X with 8 fewer threads but willingly ignore that it only just ties/beats it while having 8 more cores.

Intel designed hardware which primarily runs an OS (Windows) and applications that are not designed to fully leverage it. ARM and Apple don't have that problem.

I appreciate that sometimes change needs to be forced, but Intel ultimately are causing themselves these headaches because of this, and AMD made the right hybrid approach, at least with regards to standard and c cores.

Perhaps NVIDIA moving into Desktop CPU space with ARM might finally force Microsoft's hand, but at least for now Intel is forcing themself (and their customers) to pay an early adopter tax for a design the primary OS doesn't fully leverage.
 
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,,Intel 0x114 Microcode Could be the Magic Gaming Performance Fix for "Arrow Lake" there was an article recently​

Magic works miracles :roll:

 
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There are a few things wrong with your comments.

First of all, AMD didn't copy Intels big little approach. AMD uses the same architecture between standard and c cores that avoids pretty much all the issues Intel is running into with their P/E core approach. I think Big Little is a good approach, AMD just came out with the right solution for x86/Windows - Intels solution requires too much bespoke per application tuning to work optimally which is not too dissimilar to the R9 X3D scheduling issues AMD has.

Next, saying Intel removing Hyperthreading is an MT win as they can just scale up core count and Hyperthreading wastes space is ridiculous. I'll accept that removing Hyperthreading probably enables ARLs ST win, but I assure you the space wasted by HT is relatively small vs. Needing to add more cores to compensate.

And funny how you choose to say Arrow Lake is impressive because it ties/beats the 9950X with 8 fewer threads but willingly ignore that it only just ties/beats it while having 8 more cores.

Intel designed hardware which primarily runs an OS (Windows) and applications that are not designed to fully leverage it. ARM and Apple don't have that problem.

Doesn't the fact that Intel is matching/beating the 9950X with fewer threads prove the fact that having smaller, carefully designed single-threaded cores provides better results than bigger cores with SMT in fully multi-threaded workloads? Which is exactly my point? Adding little cores that take up less space and power is the way to go for multi-core workloads, and everyone agrees. Yes, AMD still has the same core architecture and HT in their little cores for now, but Intel's showing obvious advantages in changing that by having superior IPC.

And for Intel having to run Windows, you completely ignored my point that Zen had THESE EXACT SAME issues. Radically new CPU architecture provided outstanding multi-thread performance by boosting core count with the dual-CCD design, but faced lots of issues with Windows and apps and games not knowing how to handle thread assignment. Exact same issues Intel is facing now. And those issues haven't even been fully solved yet. As I pointed out, even the Zen 5 launch was compromised by Windows not handling the new architecture properly because 24H2 is trash.

But in hindsight, AMD absolutely made the right choice with Zen and the chiplet design. And in 8 years, I'm sure we're going to look back at 12th gen and Core Ultra and say the same thing about e-cores and removing SMT.
 
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I mean, I got a 13700K and, its fine, as long as you dont compile too much - but for god's sake, Intel performance estimates should include mandatory meltdown/spectre microcode tax that
sooner or later hits every Intel product generation. So, Intel needs to really hit the reset button because it seems people in the upper floors seem to have a disconnected line to reality nowdays.
Who sanely would buy the new platform and for what? I have a hard time to say any single USP that makes current CPUs on the same level then AMD, not mentioning some wet dreams that would place those above, and as usual, sure, surprise, surprise: new cpu, new socket (alltho some credit here, socket 1200 lasted for uhmm 3 generations! WOW)- becase, why the f**k not? So ... with somehow a heavy sight, Intel must buy me off or some magic happens cause I don't see Intel's logo on anything in an upcoming upgrade, and now this? Seriously.

Arrow Lake is the first Intel product that touches on Quantum Effects and Superpositional Performance™ - because it can be both- better and worse at the same time :cool:

Anything that contains "micro" - is bad - so whatd you expect? :cool: for example: Microplastic Microleakage Microstroke Microso...
 

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When AMD announced they would be fixing zen5 through updates they lied. I am positively surprised with Intel this time. Arrow lake is still underwhelming, but I hope Royal Core goes somewhere in 2026.
 
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I suggest they consider a relaunch under a new name: Intel Pinocchio
You mixed up something, that's the next generation in their Italian series, right after Ponte Vecchio.
 
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Thanks W1zzard!
BIOS 1203 for the ROG MAXIUMS Z890 Hero is out with the 114 ucode
If anyone flashes back and forth to do comparison testing, there is a chance that the ME firmware could impact results as it does not downgrade in most situations when using BIOS flashback etc.

A newer ME firmware is also on the ASUS ROG forums (19.0.0.1854), it is newer than the ME firmware contained in bios 1203 (19.0.0.1827).

2024/12/18
"1.Intel microcode updated to 0x114..
2.M.R.C updated to v1.4.6.64.
3.ME FW updated to v19.0.0.1827.
4.GOP updated to v1057.
5.RST VMD updated to v20.1.0.5850.
6.Improved memory compatibility and stability for frequencies >6000MHz; added CUDIMM Dual PLL mode.
7.Enabled Wi-Fi 7 (320MHz) and Wi-Fi 6E (6GHz) support for multiple countries.

Updating this BIOS will simultaneously update the corresponding Intel ME to version v19.0.0.1827.
The ME version will remain updated even if you roll back to an older BIOS later.
We recommend using EZ Flash to update the BIOS, as it supports ZIP format and auto-updates the ME.
If using USB BIOS FlashBack, ensure the ME version matches the BIOS version. - this should mean ensure the ME firmware is equal to or newer than the target BIOS, in this case 19.0.0.1827 or later.
 
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Thanks for the re-review.
Looks like a major hardware flaw can not be amended with software.
If I'm allowed to guess, someone wrote "P G" by hand in the corner of one of the photomasks, overwriting about five transistors.

ARL names 285, 265 and 245 suggest they knew it is broken and won't be true successor for Raptors X900, X700 and X600. Maybe they do quick revision with fixed perf and names 290, 270 and 260.
Look at the new mobile lineup. They threw a blanket "200" designation on 3 or 4 generations of processors. It's totally possible that 290 - 270 - 260 will be the next desktop generation (sorry but I lost track of the names... probably a Lake).
 
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Moving back to single-threaded cores doesn't hurt multi-thread applications. SMT was introduced to improve performance when CPUs were a single core, and then to improve thread count when core count was low because Intel was stuck on large processes. Now that we have advanced processes and can fit dozens of cores on a single CPU, Intel has shown they can get much better results by carefully optimizing smaller, single-threaded cores instead of wasting space on the components needed for SMT. Just look at the benchmarks. It matches the 9950X in multi-thread Blender rendering and bests it in Cinebench multi-thread, despite having 8 less threads and most of its cores running significantly slower than the full cores on the 9950X.

Every company has bad launches. Just look at the review for the initial Ryzen 7 1800X. https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-7-1800x/16.html It had many of the same problems Arrow Lake has. Poor game performance with new architecture, apps/OS needed to be optimized for the dual-CCD design, etc. I'm not saying Arrow Lake is great, if you just look at performance it's a sidegrade to Rapter Lake and Zen 5. I'm saying the new architecture is the right direction. I will not be surprised when AMD follows suite with single-threading cores and big/little desktop CPUs in the next generation or two. It has obvious advantages to performance.
Sorry, but this is highly optimistic. MS has shown that they just can’t handle this kind of complexity. Having been a suffering user of Intel’s big little strategy on Windows for a year now, exactly how long should we wait for this revolution to materialize? It’s not getting any better as far as I can tell, and Intel keeps changing their designs significantly. At this point, just having stability is a high achievement for MS. I don’t see AMD copying this when their compact full-zen cores are monumentally better from a performance perspective. They can get 128 of those cores on one package, so I’m pretty sure they won this “efficiency core” battle in short order.

Don’t get me wrong, I rather like Arrow Lake S from a conceptual standpoint, but it’s only one half of the solution to the problem. I simply lack any confidence in MS to use big little effectively. I mean, look at Snapdragon X. Even Qualcomm didn’t attempt a big little design when they made a play at Windows consumers.
 
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Sorry, but this is highly optimistic. MS has shown that they just can’t handle this kind of complexity. Having been a suffering user of Intel’s big little strategy on Windows for a year now, exactly how long should we wait for this revolution to materialize? It’s not getting any better as far as I can tell, and Intel keeps changing their designs significantly. At this point, just having stability is a high achievement for MS. I don’t see AMD copying this when their compact full-zen cores are monumentally better from a performance perspective. They can get 128 of those cores on one package, so I’m pretty sure they won this “efficiency core” battle in short order.

Don’t get me wrong, I rather like Arrow Lake S from a conceptual standpoint, but it’s only one half of the solution to the problem. I simply lack any confidence in MS to use big little effectively. I mean, look at Snapdragon X. Even Qualcomm didn’t attempt a big little design when they made a play at Windows consumers.

I rarely have any issues with thread scheduling on my Intel RPL machine. I don't play old games very much though which may be more problematic. There's always the legacy game mode too that I can toggle with the scroll lock button.
 
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Honestly, I feel like Intel is getting too much flak for Arrow Lake. While they obviously need to improve things like thread assignment with the new architecture, I feel like most of the blame needs to be assigned to Microsoft.
You're right about the criticism of being either too unfair or simply misinformed, probably largely due to a mix of unrealistic expectations and as usual users being fixated on synthetic or unrealistic benchmarks. There is no doubt that Arrow Lake is an advancement overall, despite there being noticeable regressions, which is to be expected when there are large architectural overhauls, and the only way to avoid that would be to basically refine the same architecture forever.

As for scheduling etc., that's up to the OS to handle, not Intel. And while it certainly plays a role in some workloads, AMD has to deal with the very same issue. Interestingly enough, back in August when Zen 5 launched, MS was accused of screwing over AMD, but that's apparently long forgotten now. As is evident with Linux benchmarks, there is clearly some potential for all modern hardware running on a non-antiquated kernel, but don't expect MS to change that any time soon. (And please no more patchwork with workarounds, stability would actually be better.)

I work in IT, and we've had to roll back 24H2 on multiple computers because it breaks multiple unrelated pieces of software that are absolutely business-critical for us, so it's not just an issue with a single feature or part of Windows.
That's a quality issue with MS, and has been a growing problem for years.

…and they've moving to drop native support for x86, which I think will pair very nicely with moving to single-threaded cores and allow them to simplify core design immensely.
They are not moving to drop x86, they are actually working on refining it.
I'm not sure what you mean by "native support", as all modern microarchitectures since the mid 90s have translated the ISA to micro-operations, which have effectively eliminated the arguments against x86. Moving to any of the current ISA alternatives would result in more instructions, less cache efficiency and more branching, to that's out of the question for high-performance generic computing.

What's much more significant, is the fact that most software doesn't use the x86 ISA efficiently. While many productive applications are compiled to use higher ISA levels, the OS kernel, drivers, libraries/runtimes are usually not, and still usually stick to x86-64/SSE2 (21 years old). That would be almost like running Windows XP on 8086/8088 ISA, let that sink in for a moment. If the entire software stack was recompiled for e.g. Haswell ISA level, it would probably unlock ~10% performance or more, and a lot more to be unlocked with manual optimizations of important libraries. (Linux distributions are moving in this direction, but the progress is slow.) Intel really screwed up with disabling AVX-512 on Alder Lake, otherwise we could have had a lot more performance by now.

It seems that ARL is broken at siilicon level, doubt they can fix it in new microcode in any significant way. Maybe this is caused pairing MTL SOC wuth ARL compute tile, and they do not talk in efficient way ?
Intel now must make new revision with fixed silicon, or say godbay to some 20% of their CPU share, as gamers and many causal gamers won't buy it.
It's not broken, unless there are hardware bugs that I'm not aware of. :rolleyes:

As I've said since the beginning; the performance characteristics of Arrow Lake is what it is, no amount of firmware, BIOS, drivers or kernel workarounds are going to change that (not unless they want to pump dangerous voltage and clocks etc.). And as it's a very different architecture there will be some regressions, the bigger question is whether those regressions along with the gains matter to each specific customer. Keep in mind that 99% of users considering an upgrade will not be upgrading from Alder Lake/Raptor Lake.

There's no question that Arrow Lake is the more powerful overall, and too many dismiss a product because of use cases that aren't even relevant. It's not like anyone will game on a high-end GPU in 720p or 1080p. Realistically you'll be running 1440p/4K with something like a RTX 4060/4070, so the differences will be much less than people seem to think, and even with RTX 4090 it's ~2.9% in 1440p and ~1.5% in 4K, so it's not like you're going to suffer a bad experience. (And as Arrow Lake is computationally faster, more demanding games will skew in its favor in the future.) It ultimately comes down to which applications the user will run, which is also true when comparing to Zen 5, it's no point in buying the best CPU for workloads you'll never see.

As we can see from Linux benchmarks, 285K is about ~12% faster overall vs. 14900K, which serves as a good "indicator" of what could be achieved with better software.

ARL names 285, 265 and 245 suggest they knew it is broken and won't be true successor for Raptors X900, X700 and X600. Maybe they do quick revision with fixed perf and names 290, 270 and 260.
It seems more like they've added some headroom to squeeze in an extra model or too down the line. While we wouldn't know until it happens, i.e. a 295K, or a refreshed lineup are options.
 
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"Thanks for trying, but it still sucks"

Look, Arrow lake isn't abysmal, but if we want last-gen performance, AM5 lower-end processors on cheap, future-proof motherboards have been a thing for about two years already. Arrow lake is competing (unsuccessfully) with past models that are already superseded.

We didn't let AMD off the hook for Bulldozer and Piledriver failures in the past, Intel do NOT get a free pass now.
 
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Nice try.
Now do it again like 5 more times and you might finally catch up to your own last gen product.

Greys Anatomy Wow GIF by ABC Network
 
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What's wrong with fresh install? It's the slowest almost every time? Shouldn't it be the fastest, as it has the leastet "old junk"?
 
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Keyboard Key Tronic KT2000, no Win key because 1994
Software Oldwin
Intel really screwed up with disabling AVX-512 on Alder Lake, otherwise we could have had a lot more performance by now.
Very true, the hardware is present, and there are ways to make code with AVX512 instructions not crash on an E core. Maybe MS didn't want to implement, test and support that.

They are not moving to drop x86, they are actually working on refining it.
Refining? You mean (potential) security improvements? Because performance wise, the 32-bit mode has been more than good enough for the longest time.
Besides, Intel has just cancelled the X86S project.
 
Joined
Jan 11, 2022
Messages
929 (0.86/day)
What's wrong with fresh install? It's the slowest almost every time? Shouldn't it be the fastest, as it has the leastet "old junk"?
“We didn't allow Windows Update to install all the updates and started benching instead.”

just 24 h2 none of the patches
 
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
17 (0.00/day)
"All eyes are now on the 0x114 Microcode Update Intel is planning to roll out in January 2025."

How should this be interpreted? The 114 microcode is a finished thing (November 27), which is already in ASUS and ASRock BIOSes. CapFrameX tested it with the latest (required) versions, but no effect. Neither a particular ME nor a particular microcode has multiple versions. Both 19.0.0.1854 and 114 are "final" versions, not beta. There are many more ways to twist this, but it doesn't make much sense.
 
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