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It's happening again, melting 12v high pwr connectors

OneMoar

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Corrosion to plated pins after fretting was one example of how pins can go bad as a result of insertions, which you said cannot happen. So yes, it is a valid example and no, I did not claim that pins should be plated or non-plated.

Also, yes, this is a good point (the bolded part). These are cheaply made cables unfit for purpose. This is the whole discussion point that you seem to be missing by making a really bad assumption. Your argument above the bolded part suggests that because you have a good connector, all pin/socket connectors are good. This is ridiculous. As I've suggested previously in this thread (no idea how many pages ago at this point), the connector we're talking about would be totally fine if it was used for a lower powered application where there's more margin. The current usage is too close to the rated specification and there aren't good enough safeguards. They are cheaply made in bulk and too prone to issues. That's it. That's the whole situation.
sir ill have you know that logic and understand standing of basic electrical theory are not discussed here and I thank you to go back to corporate pizzle sucking like the rest of these fine people /s

seriously folks a first year engineer would understand why this entire design from card to cable is just a bad idea .... its been a bad idea since it was cooked up in a meth and lsd fugue state by some undergrad surfing mouser after some schmuck upper management person directed them to design something different
 
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I'm sorry to go into disrespect territory, but this is the most outrageously dumb comment I've read so far. Amounts of copium are over 9000.

Guess what, user error and -especially- manufacturing defects do happen, if Corsair makes a shitty cable that's not the user's fault and their safety must be a prioritary concern. Downplaying the role of safety margins and stating they're barely even required should be enough to revoke an engineer's license. Nvidia can't just wash their hands of this. ANY electrical application has a technical and ETHICAL obligation to include a solid safety margin, LET ALONE a $2000+ premium product from the richest company in the world that's grossly overpriced because they a hold a monopoly. It's not like they can't include more copper and plastic because they have too tight of a margin. What the fuck are you guys defending?



This. :clap:

I've said this in a few other threads here, but it's mass psychosis. You are perceived as to attacking his mega brand, and he is going to defend it, even if his means in doing so is mostly sophistry and ad hominem.
 
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Here's an illustration showing corrosion build-up on plated material after the plating is worn through
Good illustration! I now think a major part of the problem could actually be corrosion, not due to cable quality or age but due to the design of 12VHPWR and a (very) limited number of reseatings, much smaller than 30x.

Hypothesis: With 12VHPWR/12V-6x2 you will likely end up at some point in it's lifetime with corrosion inside the cable due to the contact mating force for the 12VHPWR standard being too high. At least for this kind of connector. When you start to reseat the cable (you will most likely do that at some point in its lifetime), the following script occurs. Of course, my speculation.

1. A few unlucky reseatings in combination with the high mating force are enough to start grinding and eating away the plating metals on the tiny wires
2. Once the exposed copper is out, corrosion kicks in
3. Corrosion then eventually leads to increased contact resistance
4. Which then results in unbalanced amps on other wires as the GPU is 'dumb' and draws the power anyway
5. Eventually one of the six power wires/pins gets to hot and the area around it starts to melt (GPU or PSU side)
6. Bob's still your uncle

Actually, I think (another speculation) many people with a 12VHPWR GPU (any class) suffer from load balance problems by design - but this likely goes unnoticed and unpunished most of the time as the load imbalance per wire/pin is probably still within spec. Or the corroded wire points to a sense or ground pin. The 4090 with it's higher power draw was the first to show some problems here and there (the melting issues). The 5090 only takes it up a notch with the increased power draw - so it may be even more vulnerable to exceed the specs.

Also, I don't believe you can rely on the 30 mating cycles of 12VHPWR as a guaranteed cycle count. It can work sometimes, and sometimes it won't. The cycle count should be much smaller with this kind of plug, this kind of mating force, this kind of tiny AWG16 toy wires and this kind of power draw. It's not the fault of the cables, it's a design fault.

Still, we don't know, if it's a full blown issue with the 5090, as almost nobody owns those cards or can buy one.

The user error issue:
Of course, you can mitigate the risk by using the Nvidia adapter since it’s a new piece of cable and connector. So, just like with the 4090, novice users, Nvidia loyalists and people without load balance problems will flood the forums with the usual “user error” mantra - blaming people with 12VHPWR issues for not being skilled enough or not RTFM-ing or not using the Nvidia adapter. We already died on that hill with the 4090. One can already see some of those people in this thread (e.g. last 4 pages, quality and value of debate are rapidly decreasing in result). They don’t see the real flaw in this connector design, and they’re incredibly useful to Nvidia in pushing the narrative that this fragile standard is somehow sufficient for a flagship GPU power draw.

I made two 4090 builds - I am typing this on one of them. I am a green guy. I want the 5090 to work (I also want to buy one when the fog clears up). But we all need to keep up the pressure - because we simply need a better GPU connector and better cables in the next gen. Hopefully Nvidia will ditch 12VHPWR again :)
 
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But then they will heat MUCH less, due to (I^2)r. You see, the I is to the power of two. Do the math and stop complaining.
I did the math for you already. Want to see it again? (20)^2*0 = 0 watts. 6^2*0.1 = .36W.
Do you mean the ASIC when you write GPU?

I thought it was PRETTY FUCKING OBVIOUS that considering what I have been writing here is that ”GPU” refers to the damn card.
No, a GPU is not an ASIC, and neither of them is an AIB. I specifically said -- multiple, multiple times -- that the GPU cannot load balance, but the BOARD can. Either you can't read plain English or you were intentionally being argumentative. Which is it?

As you well know, the GPU firmware decides how the power delivery components are utilized, so it ACTUALLY does the load balancing
For the last time, Einstein, no neither any GPU, nor any firmware on the planet can "load balance" across 6 wires all connected to a common backplane. Learn Ohms Law, if nothing else.

OK I read it again. That's what you said. insertions cause fretting. Fretting makes connections go bad. I'm not going to continue this argument as you're talking nonsense.
The nonsense is your continual inability to read. "Fretting" causes connections to go bad. High-quality components can withstand hundreds, even thousands of insertions without going bad.

that's not the only way and the resistance is never "zero". Again, just because some resistance values go up on some of the connections, it doesn't mean the others go down
You lack the ability to read simple English. I've already pointed out that resistance can never be truly zero. And obviously the resistance on one pin mating doesn't affect that of others. But the only way you get imbalanced current load is is some pins are very low, while others are high. Period. End of discussion.
 
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High-quality components can withstand hundreds, even thousands of insertions without going bad.
I sure wish they used high quality components in these cables/connectors lol. This is a straw-man argument. "other connectors use good components and designs that allow more insertions so these must be fine" is not valid. You're trying to suggest that because other connectors are designed well, all connectors are? Or just these ones? That doesn't make any sense. Are we done yet?

But the only way you get imbalanced current load is is some pins are very low, while others are high.
That's literally what I said, which you argued with (both me and with others) by claiming some contacts must have zero ohms for some magical reason.
 

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Yeah I was going to say you're arguing the same things at this point.
 
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Also, putting some (cold) air on the 12VHPWR connector

Sounds like there is an opportunity for some waterblocks for the connectors! :roll:
 
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Ok so that's a thing or you just made it up for the new year's wish list :wtf:
Multi virtual rail mode has been a user software selectable feature of Corsair’s AXi and HXi series power supply units. The software enables or disables per-virtual rail OCP for each of the rails. The AXi series allows users to set OCP limits of between 20-40 amps on each rail. I am not sure about whether users can set their own OCP amperage limits for each rail in HXi series power supply units in multi virtual rail mode.
 
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I did the math for you already. Want to see it again? (20)^2*0 = 0 watts. 6^2*0.1 = .36W.
Using superconductors it seems.
How about a case with non zero resistance?

1 milliohm on one and 5 on the other. Current, lets say 10 A, is divided to 8.3 A and 1.7 A. Calculate the (I^2)*r and ta-daa, you get almost five times the heat output on the lead with lower resistance.
but the BOARD can
Where did you state that?
You were stating AIB, AIB, AIB, in contrast to founders edition (assumed). At least that is how the term is used at this site. You have GPUs and they are either FE models or AIB models, as in produced by a board partner.
No, a GPU is not an ASIC
It very much is.
For the last time, Einstein, no neither any GPU, nor any firmware on the planet can "load balance" across 6 wires all connected to a common backplane.
It very much can if there is no common backplane. Having the design is nvidias choice, nothing more. As stated like a million times.

And as you well know, the balancing algorithm lies in the GPU firmware in modern nvidia GPU’s. So the GPU does the load balancing (executive), using the components laid on the board. On the FE 5090 it of course is not possible, because the lack of necessary components. Again, the root cause of the cable problems.
 
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I did the math for you already. Want to see it again? (20)^2*0 = 0 watts. 6^2*0.1 = .36W.

No, a GPU is not an ASIC, and neither of them is an AIB. I specifically said -- multiple, multiple times -- that the GPU cannot load balance, but the BOARD can. Either you can't read plain English or you were intentionally being argumentative. Which is it?


For the last time, Einstein, no neither any GPU, nor any firmware on the planet can "load balance" across 6 wires all connected to a common backplane. Learn Ohms Law, if nothing else.


The nonsense is your continual inability to read. "Fretting" causes connections to go bad. High-quality components can withstand hundreds, even thousands of insertions without going bad.


You lack the ability to read simple English. I've already pointed out that resistance can never be truly zero. And obviously the resistance on one pin mating doesn't affect that of others. But the only way you get imbalanced current load is is some pins are very low, while others are high. Period. End of discussion.

You no math so good. 20^0 = 1

I'd like to delve further into this absolutely insane "it's just a few" or "it's just bad manufacturing..." but I'm already just done. You and BoggledBeagle want to pretend that it's just a small number, and it's user error, so everything is fine. It's not. It's Nvidia setting up a new connector standard. They used old equipment, old specifications, and removed any protections because they cost money. If things cost money, they make your $2000 card with a $1000 MSRP look expensive...


Seriously, it's like buying a hypercar, and defending that is needs to run on unicorn farts. The guy who filled the tank with gasoline and air was in the wrong, because they were supposed to just know that to fill the unicorn fart chamber you needed a 12 step dance, a three gesture handshake, and to rub a quarter panel just the right way. That's...silly. It's also pretty unreasonable if you take a working system like the current 8 pin connectors, design them to the point of near failure within your spec, and call it a day.


Let me offer an analog. One last bit to hopefully stir a laugh. It's like having a car rated to go no faster than 60 miles per hour. Haha...that's rich. Well, you can technically go 90...for 2 seconds at a time...without theoretical damage. Of course, if you go 70 miles per hour for 4 seconds the car's body panels shear off and the thing literally rips apart. Of course, instead of installing a rev limiter on the engine, you're Nvidia. You ripped out the limiter because it was too expensive, and installed a huge engine that can actually go way faster than 90 mph. That's not a consumer's fault for being stupid...that's Nvidia's fault for designing a thing that is meant to fail.
 

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Find it funny that the ATX 3.0 is rated 450w, and if you do not realize you could have burned cables too. How i see it like 6 pin and 8 pin there should of been another cable to allow the up to the 600w.

I noticed on my Corsair box they put a sticker on it covering the up the ATX 3.0 with a sticker that says ATX 3.0 PCIe 450w. So even though the PCIe 3.0 is rated up to 600w Corsair at least on my box rate it at 450w and not the 600w.

 
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Will the card recognize changes to the cable power coding on the fly. By hooking a thermostat relay into the middle of one of the lines, which essentially turns it to 150W/300W if it gets too hot.
 
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All this wire talk. Here was my fun day. Installing new female ends for CPC04T computer modules.

This is the size NV should be using at 10a.

(We had 6 trucks broken into where they removed the computer these plug into by cutting the wires with what looked like, a steak knife.)
 

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eidairaman1

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Nvidia isn't going to fix this until there is plenty of pushback on their social media, and the ftc, and other national equivalents get involved.
 
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All this wire talk. Here was my fun day. Installing new female ends for CPC04T computer modules.

This is the size NV should be using at 10a.

(We had 6 trucks broken into where they removed the computer these plug into by cutting the wires with what looked like, a steak knife.)
Here was my day.
I crimped some of these exact pins (the subject of this thread) the day before yesterday, as a matter of fact. Funny enough, they are magicly only rated for 6 amps maximum when it is in an application that matters. Used them for 1/2-amp power to Bose LEMO jacks as a disconnect for easier replacement and maintenance. It's a cheap and readily-available connector housing (6-pin housing in my situation) and pin. Why would they use it for a 600-watt (at 12 volts) application? There has to be better options!

We know that hardware monitoring and tripping is super cheap and easy. They either don't care or don't think it matters.
 

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There's a safety margin. Not a large one -- but again, these margins only exist to protect against manufacturing defects or user error. Without those, there would be no margin required.

Safety margins do not exist to correct defects but for manufacturing tolerances and a bevy of operating conditions and variables experienced out in the field. It has to account for wear / tear, humidity, temperature, ect. 10% is a pitiful margin to account for all those factors.

The word "user error" is getting used a lot but it's being used incorrectly. If people are using the new cable like they've always used their 8-pin cables, that's a failure on the design of the new cable for going against customer knowledge and expectations. It's like making an FPS game that uses tfgh for movement. Mind you, these cables are failing regardless of whether the user did something wrong or not. Plenty of examples of experienced builders getting their connectors burnt.

No amount of safety margin will protect against a defective cable, that's where safety features come in (which 12VHPWR and 12V2X6 also lacks). The fact that the cable is allowed to melt proves that. It doesn't matter what the source of the melted cable is, unless the user is doing something irrepressibly stupid (like pouring water on the connector) it should never be allowed to fail to that degree.

How about a hypothetical, assume we follow the logic of the defenders of this connector that this is user error and apply that logic to elevators. Let's assume a group of people weighing 1,100 pounds gets on an elevator rated for 900 Lbs. The logic employed defending this connector would then dictate that those people deserve to die if the elevator fails and has no safety features and it would be entirely their fault. Easily put, that's is horrid logic. There's no reason that such a thing should even have a chance of occurring in the first place, let alone assuming the weight limit was even known to the occupants (the label can be weathered or not visible). It doesn't make any sense to exclude basic safety features when the cost of not having them is drastically higher. I mean, why have railings at all on overhead pathways higher than 7 ft, a worker falling, that must be user error /s. Humans are imperfect, as is this world. Hence why products should take that into account.

The arguments defending the connector don't make sense in the most favorable light, let alone when there is no user error involved. I hate that this kind of nonsense logic has permeated so many things, where instead of designing products better, we instead scapegoat all the blame on the user by ignoring all the criticism meanwhile making favorable assumptions on the behalf of some corporation.
 
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Safety margins do not exist to correct defects but for manufacturing tolerances and a bevy of operating conditions and variables experienced out in the field. It has to account for wear / tear, humidity, temperature, ect. 10% is a pitiful margin to account for all those factors.

The word "user error" is getting used a lot but it's being used incorrectly. If people are using the new cable like they've always used their 8-pin cables, that's a failure on the design of the new cable for going against customer knowledge and expectations. It's like making an FPS game that uses tfgh for movement. Mind you, these cables are failing regardless of whether the user did something wrong or not. Plenty of examples of experienced builders getting their connectors burnt.

No amount of safety margin will protect against a defective cable, that's where safety features come in (which 12VHPWR and 12V2X6 also lacks). The fact that the cable is allowed to melt proves that. It doesn't matter what the source of the melted cable is, unless the user is doing something irrepressibly stupid (like pouring water on the connector) it should never be allowed to fail to that degree.
Exactly my thought. I long for getting drunk with you.

Some people here really think the connector is safe. Yeah, it's perfectly safe, when perfectly plugged, in virtual conditions.
This connector has such low safety margin that it is rendered useless when you take into account connector/cable manufacturing process variation.

Meanwhile, WTF:
1740142161086.jpeg


Now every one who owns RTX 4090 and RTX 5090 will get this even when they say the connector is designed properly. You know, just to be sure.
 
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Meanwhile, WTF:
View attachment 385889

Now every one who owns RTX 4090 and RTX 5090 will get this even when they say the connector is designed properly. You know, just to be sure.
Well, give this thing a per-pin monitoring, some way to react (pull down the allowed power via sense pins?) plus maybe some visualization like green-red led per pin, beeper or maybe monitoring data output via USB and it would actually be a useful thing.

Of course, for a proper product today it would need a controllable aRGB array, some glass window and a fan and such :D
 
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Exactly my thought. I long for getting drunk with you.

Some people here really think the connector is safe. Yeah, it's perfectly safe, when perfectly plugged, in virtual conditions.
This connector has such low safety margin that it is rendered useless when you take into account connector/cable manufacturing process variation.

Meanwhile, WTF:
View attachment 385889

Now every one who owns RTX 4090 and RTX 5090 will get this even when they say the connector is designed properly. You know, just to be sure.

I'd argue that internally they don't think the connector is safe either. After all these same people are taking the same measures as other worried individuals and they even go as far as to call it "user error" if they don't take these apparently "obvious" steps.

You can't hold the belief that you need a booklet worth of special instructions to run a cable safely that the predecessor didn't need while pretending the cable is safe. It's facade that's hoisted to assign blame where they want to.
 
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Exactly my thought. I long for getting drunk with you.

Some people here really think the connector is safe. Yeah, it's perfectly safe, when perfectly plugged, in virtual conditions.
This connector has such low safety margin that it is rendered useless when you take into account connector/cable manufacturing process variation.

Meanwhile, WTF:
View attachment 385889

Now every one who owns RTX 4090 and RTX 5090 will get this even when they say the connector is designed properly. You know, just to be sure.
Bwahahahahahahahaahahahaaaa

Oh man if I ever lay my eyes on someone having this hanging off their GPU I think I'll die laughing

'User error' just got a whole new meaning :roll::roll::roll:

I'd argue that internally they don't think the connector is safe either. After all these same people are taking the same measures as other worried individuals and they even go as far as to call it "user error" if they don't take these apparently "obvious" steps.

You can't hold the belief that you need a booklet worth of special instructions to run a cable safely that the predecessor didn't need while pretending the cable is safe. It's facade that's hoisted to assign blame where they want to.
They know it ain't safe, but reality is fighting against cognitive dissonance here. I mean come on, you spent 2500 on your GPU, it shall be perfect.
 
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bad card design is bad, this failure mode is a violation of UL anybody claiming the cable was misused or abuse is a moron we have the UL exactly for this kind of reason.
UL is a commercial certification lab not a regulatory body.

Ok and what about pros who do it the same way you do and the card burns up? Utter bullshit. Rtx 4000 and 5000 are not isolated incidents.
Name one recognizable name who had it burn up? Just sayin'
 
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Which part of "it's a cable and/or connector problem" do you not understand? "Redesigning the PCB" isn't going to change that.

Buy a good quality cable and don't abuse it. You'll be fine.
And you don't understand that apparently...
 

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Regardless of everything else, if 12vhp was so highly problematic, we would literally have thousands upon thousands of cases. Maybe millions. Even if we assume that the problem will only appear in high end cards (so 4080, 4090, 5080, 5090) there are millions of these cards out in the wild. And yet we don't. Obviously either some of the people melting their connector are doing something wrong, or some cables / connectors are problematic.

Im still using an original (not the "safe" new revision) 12vh from cablemod. Have been plugging and unplugging plenty of times. Have used it on a tiny case (d41) with the cable bending etc., I've done everything that could ever be done wrong and it keeps on going for more than 2 years...
 
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Regardless of everything else, if 12vhp was so highly problematic, we would literally have thousands upon thousands of cases. Maybe millions. Even if we assume that the problem will only appear in high end cards (so 4080, 4090, 5080, 5090) there are millions of these cards out in the wild. And yet we don't. Obviously either some of the people melting their connector are doing something wrong, or some cables / connectors are problematic.

Im still using an original (not the "safe" new revision) 12vh from cablemod. Have been plugging and unplugging plenty of times. Have used it on a tiny case (d41) with the cable bending etc., I've done everything that could ever be done wrong and it keeps on going for more than 2 years...
Many of users don't know of the problem until they start to smell burnt plastic. Previously I linked Tom's Hardware article about how they realized after long time that connector partially melted even though card was running fine. Imagine how many users are in similar situation that card still works but connector is already damaged.

Also, if you don't experience the issue, this doesn't mean the issue is unreal. It may still be like you don't have the issue, for now.
 
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