It's happening again, melting 12v high pwr connectors

[Dredi]

Well one example i know of for sure is that Asus Thor PSUs have it for their 12VHPWR connector.

What does it actually do though? I wasn't able to find any review where any such feature would have been introduced, or tested.

 

[_roman_]

There are already Asus Astral owners getting annoyed because the software is essentially telling them they need to replace their cable because even a small imbalance puts a pin in the red.

And people believe these "uncalibrated" values. That is not a measurement device. check the paper manual of any decent true rms multimeter or true rms clamp multimeter.

Note: Well I aid in the goal to achieve 50 pages. 41 pages are not enough.

 

[Dredi]

And people believe these "uncalibrated" values.

Are you certain that Asus has not calibrated them as a part of the cards production? Unlikely yes, but possible.

What has been the measured delta between what the app says compared to a calibrated clamp meter? 1%?

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Real cause is already known.

You can apply primitive NxWhy method (basic analyzing method that 3-4 years old children apply to test their parents patience).

Connector specification (design) is the main problem here IMHO. It was created with almost no safety margin in mind. It's living on the edge. Many of you here think the solution would be to monitor per pin current and adjust current to be evenly distributed among pins. Lack of this feature is not real root cause here, that is way how to workaround current problem. Of course, current distribution control increases safety a lot, but had the pin resistances not vary that much, connector would be fine even without workarounds in place.

Yeah if you added a safety mechanism to all 5090s to shutdown when a pin goes out of spec, people's cards would be shutting down all the time

There are already Asus Astral owners getting annoyed because the software is essentially telling them they need to replace their cable because even a small imbalance puts a pin in the red.

There's two ways I see of answering the failure. It's funny, because the inflection point between them is whether you look at this as a resistance issue or a current draw issue.

Define problem: 12 pin connector cards are burning up.

Why are they burning up?
The resistance in the connector, combined with the current flow, causes them to heat up.
Why is the resistance causing heating?
Connectors are receiving too much power, and their resistance converts too much energy to heat.
Why is the resistance so high?
The cross sectional area of contact is too low for the current flowing
A -> increase the cross sectional area of the connector

Why are they burning up?
The resistance in the connector, combined with the current flow, causes them to heat up.
Why is there so much current flow
The card is pulling near specification limits to power the GPU
Why is the specification limit so close to the draw?
Nvidia designed the connector assuming an even distribution of current.
Why did they design assume that the current would be evenly distributed?
They didn't understand the difference between practical application and theoretical load balancing
A -> They need to install a management system to prevent unbalanced current loading on the connector.


The two logical answers, depending upon how you write the question, is to either dramatically increase the cross sectional area (and thus decrease the resistance of the connection) or to install current limiting to the system so none of the lines exceeds the energy required to incinerate the connector. Note that the later does not specify whether you choose something like a fuse, breaker, active monitoring and management, etc...

The endgame though is the same. The connector and draw combination mean that your specification does not match your requirements...and how you define why it doesn't meet your purpose leads you to how you answer the question. I'm sure a manufacturer would want active monitoring, given that absolves them of issues with minimal cost. I'm sure that the software guys would want a beefier connector, because that metal isn't worth a fraction of what their coding is...at a one time expense. As consumers, we look at this as Ngreedia because both solutions will take less than a few dollars to implement...and they decided to cheap out while dramatically increasing the price of a card.

 

[Werwulf]

And people believe these "uncalibrated" values. That is not a measurement device. check the paper manual of any decent true rms multimeter or true rms clamp multimeter.

Note: Well I aid in the goal to achieve 50 pages. 41 pages are not enough.

If your 5090 is pulling nearly 9.0A through each cable and your dog farts in the next room, you're probably going over those limits.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I just know we're gonna hit page 50 soon. 50 pages of copium fighting dosages of reality.
I can almost smell it! Hmmm. Burnt plastic!

Let's face facts, the whole damn situation is unacceptable. We need a better solution.

 

[freeagent]

How come all the plugs that burn only have 2 wires?

That one has 4 wires.. why are people using the other one?

 

[N/A]

CARD_PWR_STABLE can provide a fault detection alert from the Add-in Cards to the PSU, which can provide the PSU an opportunity for protective measures.

CARD_CBL_PRES provides a constant DC logic signal from the Add-in Card to the power supply to indicate that the 12V-2x6 Connector is correctly attached.

What if PSU still doesn't do anything about it. That happened in the first post. all four also.

 

[x4it3n]

3080 Ti FE, nothing melted with OEM (Seasonic) 2x8pin to 12-pin cable, been going strong for 2 3 years (or is it 3 now, can't remember Jesus, it's been 3 years already, time sure flies).

3090 Ti was the one that came up with 12VHPWR but it wasn't until 4090 when the melting started. 40 series cards that use standard 8-pin connectors are lower tier with much lower power draw, plus we haven't really seen any melting on something other than a 4090 before the 50 series showed up.

Yeah the 3090 Ti didn't have that issue apparently. Also I wonder what people with burning connectors are doing...or if they are defective units/cables/connectors, because I have a 4090 SUPRIM LIQUID X and even with OC + 530W BIOS it's not melting. Not that I want it to melt but so far no issues. Also I'm using the 4x 8-pin to 16-pin adapter. But I bought a Seasonic Prime TX-1600 Noctua Edition (ATX 3.1 & PCIe 5.1) on purpose so I can use their 12V-2x6 cables on a 5090 when I get mine this month (if everything goes well).

I think that this much focus on connector is misplaced. Yes, it had teething problems and there is precious little safety margin compared to old 8-pin but is that the cause of the meltdowns we are seeing? The 12-pin on 30x0 was effectively the exact same design and these did not melt in any significant amounts. There were a few examples that largely did boil down to user error and big splash in hardware news. The real problem started with 4090 and it wasn't exactly clear, why. 3090Ti was running the same 450W through it and 3080Ti/3090 with 350W were not really that far off.

The 3090 Ti was using 3 shunt resistors to divide current evenly on all cables. The 4090/5090 just have 1 or 2 depending on models.

 

[londiste]

If your 5090 is pulling nearly 9.0A through each cable and your dog farts in the next room, you're probably going over those limits.

600W at 12V is 50A. 8.3A for every wire. Limit in the spec is connectors at 9.3A each. Yes, that only leaves a very small 12% margin.

The 3090 Ti was using 3 shunt resistors to divide current evenly on all cables. The 4090/5090 just have 1 or 2 depending on models.

Shunts themselves do not divide, they with (usually) help measuring the current. There need to be some circuit or the power delivery design itself that deals with evening out load on input.

What if PSU still doesn't do anything about it. That happened in the first post. all four also.

From what it looks like on PSU side it is also a big blob of 12V and PSU does not and by definition should not care other than providing 12V power and ideally keeping within the limits requested/allowed by what card says through sense wires. CARD_CBL_PRES should help if the connector is not properly in. If it is properly in the uneven distribution of power over wires can still happen and melt things.

 

[harm9963]

I have a Seasonic Prime TX 1600 3.1, the way I know is with a clamp meter , with a WireView , clamp meter shows all 6 wires at 6 amps , without WireView , balance is gone , same thing JTC experience with Elmorlads device .

​

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Testing all three WireView,three 12V-2x6 cables and the two 12V-2x6 connectors on the PSU, so far in my Testing ,without WireView the load balances is gone.

 

[biffzinker]

 

[chrcoluk]

Where is the link to the source?

 

[Bobaganoosh]

They've since updated to retract that statement.

 

[biffzinker]

Dutch Retailer talks to Kitguru and retracts ‘RTX 5090 recall’ claim - KitGuru

Earlier today, a KitGuru reader reached out to us to let us know about a rather bold claim from a re

www.kitguru.net

Maybe, maybe not?

 

[DMaster]

From Hardwareluxx now
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...ken-und-fehlgeschlagenen-lösungsansätzen.html (Deutsch)
See "update" in the end.

 

[LittleBro]

From Hardwareluxx now
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/news/hardware/grafikkarten/65507-12vhpwr-12v-2x6-problematik-boardpartner-mit-bedenken-und-fehlgeschlagenen-lösungsansätzen.html (Deutsch)
See "update" in the end.

Why not to water cool the connector as well? What could possibly go wrong ...

 

[Chomiq]

From Hardwareluxx now
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/news/hardware/grafikkarten/65507-12vhpwr-12v-2x6-problematik-boardpartner-mit-bedenken-und-fehlgeschlagenen-lösungsansätzen.html (Deutsch)
See "update" in the end.

So much for using native cables*, you're probably better off with 8-pin to12vhpwr cable, at least on PSU side.

* they do test GPU's daily which means they can easily exceed the 30 mating cycles that these cables are rated for (at least on GPU side)

 

[AVATARAT]

Some "tests" with 12vhpwr

 

[londiste]

In both his setups as he said himself as well, there is a whole lot of room for the heat to spread - large beefy PCB and big beefy wires in the other case. I do wonder if that is better or worse than on a GPU where the connector should be getting some proper airflow over it under load.

 

[Chomiq]

660W on 12VHPWR to 2x8-pin cable.

 

[LabRat 891]

660W on 12VHPWR to 2x8-pin cable.

Artificially-ideal, even load across the conductors
Ideal connection angle (unlike a real installation)

The little details that make a difference in real installations, are all subtracted.

This kind of 'testing' being trusted, is how Ford ended up with the Mustang Mach E fiasco.

Ford notifies dealers to stop selling Mustang Mach-E ahead of safety recall

The issue affects Ford Mach-Es that were built between May 27, 2020 through March 24, 2022, or basically every Mach-E ever built.

driveteslacanada.ca

The fix was a software update to limit power...

The reprogramming does not prevent the high voltage battery fault, but will reduce the power by approximately one-third to keep the EV drivable instead of being stranded on the side of the road needing a tow to a dealer.

 

[_roman_]

Well even on computer sites I learn about cars which I'm not interested in for over 40 years.

#1022 / #1021

First sentence - we are not a review site.

I think he writes the reviews for igorslab? Or am I wrong? And he always advertises there for cybernetics there. I refer to the german igor website version.
I do not agree with that. I can not differ between the igorslab power supply unit test with the same person referring his company there. And igor also advertising his company there. And even mentioning the location of that person and his company.

-- edit 1: 76°C do not look amusing for myself on those cables. Whataboutism: Ordinary laptops do not get such hot in certain places which annoy me a lot
-- edit 2: Well - you are doing something wrong running at 50°C.

I disagree. Summer we get even in Austria outside 42°C. In the houses it's hotter. Even when you disagree. I run for around a year now the fractal design meshify 2 case without the top cover and the sideglass. I wanted to do something and than i left it as is. You can say, it is open case. Inside the meshify 2 there is always higher temperature. 600 Watts from GPU, 450 Watts from Intel CPU, 130 Watts (that is up to discussion) some hdd, mainboard itself, DRAM, NVME, Fan-Power usage, .... The components itself will generate a lot of heat. If you do not have many casefans and an ordinary case I suspect 55 or 60°C in the case itself.

That guy measures around 30 or 35°C ambient = room temperature everything. This video shows best how wrong such videos are. It is not a real use case. It is a constant electrical load - not a real load. The device under test is tested not in real life scenario - it is tested with very low temperature in ideal conditions. that video is only valid when you want to use your power supply unit to generate heat with the electrical load.

We used to have climate boxes which can be heated with temperature curve and water in air levels. I suggest that he also get such box and test the device under test with 70°C with certain air humidity. Up to discussion how high the humidity has to be.

The test setup is okay but not for the intended scenario where the product is used. Maybe a few will use a benchtable for their pc case with a room which has a proper air cooling and low temperature around 18°C in hot summer. Outside in summer 40°C. Inside the Room 18°C.

Anyway - regarding the video. That guy seems to make the test articles for igor and make the classifications. With ideal scenarios.

My 7800XT and ryzen 7600x heats up my fractal design meshify 2 pc case under low loads while gaming quite a bit. When i opened the sidepanel I saw the "heat wave". I could also see with my cheap 8€ infrared thermometer the difference on the parts. I know the thermometer is not calibrated to the reflection value. It has worse accuracy. It's still enough to see room and wall temperature. Components temperature. Car temperature. Winter Season temperature outside and inside the house. It shows how the temperature drops when i remove the sideglass and keep on gaming.

Final words: Test scenario failed because the initial assumption for the test scenario is not a real life temperature scenario of those pc cases.

Everyone is free to get their own ideas an opinions.

First random case test I found now here: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/thermaltake-tr100/7.html
Feel free to check the charts and think about how high temperatures are in a case. Are they around 30°C? I highly doubt. They cables showed around 70°C = 40°C extra.

I want to see constant load with 1200 Watts for an hour at 70°C in a climate apparatus. Next 900 Watts.

660 Watts is too close to specification @ 30°C room temperature @ 30°C after half an hour.

He could also had used something to block the air in that test setup to increase the temperature.

 

[R-T-B]

Well even on computer sites I learn about cars which I'm not interested in for over 40 years.

#1022 / #1021

First sentence - we are not a review site.

I think he writes the reviews for igorslab? Or am I wrong? And he always advertises there for cybernetics there. I refer to the german igor website version.
I do not agree with that. I can not differ between the igorslab power supply unit test with the same person referring his company there. And igor also advertising his company there. And even mentioning the location of that person and his company.

I do not believe igorslab and the Cybenetics testing lab are related at all actually. Cybenetics is run by @crmaris, tpus old PSU reviewer, who no longer does reviews with us due to his new business venture.

It's a pretty trustworthy org as far as PSU knowledge goes.

 

[steamrick]

Igorslab occasionally has Aris on as a guest author. Most of the PSU reviews on Igorslab from 2021 onwards are authored by Aris.

Quickly checking a few of the recent PSU reviews authored by Igor himself, they're all based on Aris's data. I think that the last PSU review article that relies solely on data gathered by Igor himself was the RTX 3090 vs be quiet PSUs showdown from 2020?

Might as well skip the middle man and look up PSU reviews on hwbusters.