Help me pick a UPS

[Shrek]

AVR relays - how do they work? - Page 1
talks about relays

"The way a AVR works is to switch between different taps on the transformer to boost or buck the incoming AC mains ..."

 

[Timbaloo]

Power is NOT the first time derivative of energy. It is the first time derivative of "work done", or "energy used" or transferred with respect to "time". Something we learned in middle school.

You have a weird way of defining things, let's be clear here:

Unit of energy is J, unit of work is J, unit of power is W (or J/s).

 

[Hakker]

Get a cheap decent brand and not an APC (it's mostly name you pay) in the end it are simply car batteries in serial connection.

 

[Rover4444]

@Rover4444
i hope you asked rhetorically, as it makes you look like you don't have much of a clue regarding UPS/features, and might wanna read up on things before giving (UPS) advice.

even if its use is for pure blackout protection (save shutdown), i wouldn't spend a single dime on a unit that doesn't have it.

and ups with battery daisy chaining are common for +20y, maybe just not with consumers.

I'm pretty sure it's ElectroMagnetic Interference filtering and Automatic Voltage Regulation. I'm more interested in the actual typical usecase where these features are critically necessary at high wattages for a home user. For somebody powering a computer a power station is not a bad choice.

It was a serious question.

 

[Endymio]

Still waiting for just one. What "wrong" advice did I give? Did I use the wrong terminology? Yes. And I already admitted and apologized for that. But wrong advice? Show us.

You mean besides telling the OP that UPSes "weren't designed" for extended gaming, or that a 1500VA rating on a UPS somehow expresses its run time?

Power is NOT the first time derivative of energy. It is the first time derivative of "work done", or "energy used" or transferred with respect to "time". Something we learned in middle school.

This absurdity has gone far enough. I'll disregard your claims of middle-school work in calculus-based physics, and simply note you're clueless. Even at elementary level classical mechanics, the derivative of the energy function is the power function; work is is the delta of energy, and thus it's derivative is identical. Move to higher-level formulations like the Hamiltonian, expressing the evolution of the system in multidimensional phase space, and 'energy' becomes eigenstates and 'work' becomes virtual -- yet still the first time derivative of energy is power. Don't try to play coy word games; you lack the ammunition for it.

 

[Waldorf]

@Rover4444
emi is common on househould lines, usually stuff like microwaves/dryer/appliances can cause it during startup/run time.
avr is something i would only go without, in places with good stable power, e.g. inner city in 1st world places like europe, as i have seen it getting triggered at least a few times a month no matter where i was in conus, and bad areas multiple times a week and up to 30 brownouts/power switching on/off few times within 1-5 min.
it basically allows the ups to correct incoming power within a certain range (usually selectable) without having to use the battery.
will extend battery time (if a poweroutage comes later) and at least battery life (lead cells dont like any discharge).

none of this has to do with gaming or even pc use, i use ups for all expensive/relevant stuff like network/tv rtc except audio amps, and not a single psu/powder brick etc died since then, so you can see clean power is always better, and you dont need seperate surge protectors.

 

[Bill_Bright]

You have a weird way of defining things, let's be clear here:

It is not MY definition. I didn't make anything up. I simply googled it. You can too and will see it is "with respect to time".

Unit of energy is J, unit of work is J, unit of power is W (or J/s).

Right! And what does that "s" represent? Seconds or "time" - a most critical variable I have been pointing out and using all along in this discussion (starting with my use of "kWh" last week in post #31) that others just don't seem to get. I am glad you do.

Thanks you for agreeing with me, even though you didn't realize it.

Power (physics) - Wikipedia

Power is the amount of energy transferred or converted per unit time. In the International System of Units, the unit of power is the watt, equal to one joule per second.

 

[Timbaloo]

It is not MY definition. I didn't make anything up. I simply googled it. You can too and will see it is "with respect to time".

Right! And what does that "s" represent? Seconds or "time" - a most critical variable I have been pointing out and using all along in this discussion (starting with my use of "kWh" last week in post #31) that others just don't seem to get. I am glad you do.

Thanks you for agreeing with me, even though you didn't realize it.

Power (physics) - Wikipedia

Dude, literally the first equation in your link:

tells you that power (P) is the first time derivative (d/dt) of energy (E).

Quote:

Power is NOT the first time derivative of energy.

 

[Bill_Bright]

@Timbaloo - I don't understand why, but unlike your post number 77 above, this time when you quoted me, you left out the very important next sentence which clarified that statement. But fine! Minutia. I said "time" was factor from the very beginning. My definition you said was weird, while not exactly the same as yours, was still accurate as I simply copied and pasted it from a physics source. Someone else felt it necessary to show how horribly wrong I was by being "more precise" than I was. Mea culpa. You win. I was wrong. Not worth arguing over as it serves the OP and other readers no use.

The following, however, I stand by.

You mean besides telling the OP that UPSes "weren't designed" for extended gaming, or that a 1500VA rating on a UPS somehow expresses its run time?

Huh? Those are statements. That's not giving advice. Advice is when you suggest or recommend someone take, or not take some action.

So I ask again, where did I give anyone bad advice? If you can't show it, stop fabricating falsehoods.

In any case, what I said was, UPS were not designed for "playing games". And that is true. It may be how some are being marketed these days but how something is marketed and why they were created/designed in the first place are frequently nothing alike. What makes a computer case a gaming computer case? Marketing hype and flashing lights. What makes a SSD a "Game Drive"? A pretty color and the word "Game" in the marketing hype. Do either the case or that SSD make games perform or support games better just because they are marketed as gaming devices? NO.

And I never said 1500VA expresses its run time. Why are you making stuff up? It just makes you look even more dishonest. That's really sad you have such low integrity you can't simply discuss and debate the facts without making stuff up. I said a bigger UPS will support his computer, monitor and network gear and provides longer run times (than a smaller UPS), which again is true. Whether you agree with the physics or not, does not matter. The same load will be supported longer with a bigger UPS.

If you, or anyone still reading still deny loads affect runtime, read on.

Are longer runtimes the result of higher capacity batteries? Sure!!! That definitely is one factor. I never denied that. But as seen here, (my bold underline added),

The battery capacity, measured in ampere-hours (Ah), directly influences runtime. Higher battery capacity generally translates to longer runtime. However, the actual runtime depends on the load and the efficiency of the UPS system.

Or as seen here,

Heavier loads decrease runtime

What Factors Determine UPS Battery Runtime?

Battery Capacity​

Load Demand​

Battery Age and Maintenance​

Type of Battery Technology​

Environmental Conditions​

Or here,

How long a UPS last? The ability of the UPS to offer power is determined by many factors. Here are the factors that determine how long will the UPS battery last.

Power load of supported devices: The power load of devices being supported is measured in watts. It has to be noted that each device has its own power supply requirements. The UPS will support the individual devices according to the power requirement.

If you still don't agree - go argue with them, not me.

As far as my middle school comment, you first cited your advanced degrees and what you learned long ago as some sort of reason to suggest you must be right. Sorry a bit of your own medicine tasted so bitter.

it basically allows the ups to correct incoming power within a certain range (usually selectable) without having to use the battery.

Agreed except some UPS will use the battery in minor, short-duration low voltages events to boost the voltage without having to kick completely over to battery backup power. This has little impact on the overall life of the battery for the very reason you noted - the batteries don't sustain a significant discharge when boosting voltage a few volts during those short duration events.

 

[Shrek]

Even better, AVR switches transformer windings and so the battery is not needed at all for low voltage events.

 

[Timbaloo]

@Timbaloo - I don't understand why, but unlike your post number 77 above, this time when you quoted me, you left out the very important next sentence which clarified that statement.

I left it out intentionally so you could see the contradiction (which lead me to my first post saying "you have a weird way of defining things", as your statements was both wrong and right at the same time). I honestly never thought you're wrong, just that... you have a weird way of describing things

Sorry if that came out rude to you, as that was not my intention

But fine! Minutia. I said "time" was factor from the very beginning. My definition you said was weird, while not exactly the same as yours, was still accurate as I simply copied and pasted it from a physics source. Someone else felt it necessary to show how horribly wrong I was by being "more precise" than I was. Mea culpa. You win. I was wrong.

Free hugs for both of us please

Not worth arguing over as it serves the OP and other readers no use.

Certainly agree here, let's move on

 

[Bill_Bright]

I left it out intentionally so you could see the contradiction

You left it "out of context" intentionally which changed the message entirely. Not rude, but clearly inconsiderate of the consequences.

not my intention

Free hugs for both of us please

We're good.

 

[95Viper]

Stop the back-and-forth bickering... take your discussion to PMs !
Anymore and there will be warnings, thread bans, etc. issued.

 

[mechtech]

I have this version and the same older version of it.........was happy with it enough that I bought another.

CP1500PFCLCD

A mini-tower UPS with line interactive topology, the CyberPower PFC Sinewave CP1500PFCLCD provides battery backup (using sine wave output) and surge protection for desktop computers, workstations, networking devices, and home entertainment systems requiring active PFC power source compatibility...

www.cyberpowersystems.com

other models if something less expensive is desired

PFC Sinewave Archives

CyberPower manufactures high-quality PFC Sinewave products for consumers and IT professionals.

www.cyberpowersystems.com

Also can't help picking it up.........

 

[Waldorf]

@mechtech
except a lot of brands list sine wave out (which it always is), but that doesnt tell you WHICH one (simulated/pure).
seen too many times where even with aPFC psu, they talk about sine wave, but not type.

 

[Bill_Bright]

@Waldorf

I hear you but I think it safe to assume when Cyberpower says "sinewave", they mean a "sinewave" and not simulated, approximated, stepped, or modified. And I say that with pretty decent confidence because if you look at this less expensive Cyberpower CP1500AVRLCD3 model, it clearly says multiple times, "Simulated" Sine Wave.

I believe (sure would like to believe), if you stick with the well known brands (APC, CyberPower, Eaton/Tripp Lite, Vertiv), they are going to be truthful in their marketing hype about the wave form.

Where I would like CyberPower and other UPS makers to be consistent (or at least more descriptive) is in the value they use for their power factor figures. If you look at the specs for mechtech's 1500VA UPS, it says "1000W" because it uses .7 for the PF (1500 x .7 = 1050). The simulated sinewave 1500VA UPS, however, is rated at 900W - NOT because it's output is simulated, but because it uses .6 for the PF (1500 x .6 = 900).

I don't understand the difference because for published (advertised) UPS specs, those values are pretty much arbitrarily chosen by the maker because the PF is actually (for the most part) determined by the type of load on the UPS, not the UPS itself. I have to assume there simply is a bigger profit margin with the sinewave model so they use .7 to give a higher wattage value to make it look more powerful to entice unaware users. When really, it is the 1500VA that matters - and those are equal.

I think they should at least explain how (or why) they came to that PF value in their product descriptions and data sheets. But that's for another discussion.

Speaking of marketing hype, not sure I like the word "pure" in these descriptions for sinewave models. I have never seen a "pure" sinewave except in a "standards" or PMEL environment back in my radio maintenance days. But that also is for another discussion.

 

[Shrek]

Now that I think about it, for AVR, mechanical relays take about 10ms to switch (when the AVR switches windings) which is half a mains cycle and covered by the supply hold-up time, but it seems to me it will give rise to noise on the mains, especially as the contacts bounce.

Regardless, I'd get a unit with AVR to help extend battery life by not having it kick in so often.

 

[Scattergrunt]

Generally speaking, as far as my limited understanding goes, there's some good takes all around. No idea why OP decided to jump into the argument though.

Seems OP made his choice though. Hopefully, it was a good one.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Now that I think about it, for AVR, mechanical relays take about 10ms to switch

so seems to me it gives rise to noise on the mains, especially as the contacts bounce.

You are taking a remote, extreme, exception to the rule example to rain down doom and gloom. You seam stuck on this and I'm not sure why. Yes, "in theory" all mechanical relays are subject to bounce. And unless compensated for, the bounce may make noise for a couple milliseconds.

But that's not typical reality. (1) Not all UPS use mechanical relays and perhaps more importantly, for devices that do use mechanical relays (2) "debounce" circuits are effective and inexpensive to add and implement.

We have to be realistic here. There are millions and millions of UPS with AVR in use globally. And not just for sensitive computer and network equipment, but also with other communications systems, medical equipment, scientific monitoring equipment and more. If relay bounce in UPS AVR circuits was a issue, it would be widely publicized. We need to avoid FUD.

What good would a device designed to regulate voltage be it is regularly introduced noise anomalies into its output? That makes no sense. And for sure, as a network manager and a person in charge of maintaining sensitive, mission critical communications equipment, I sure would NOT allow any UPS on my systems if they behaved that way. That will be silly, if not irresponsible.

and covered by the supply hold-up time

Ummm, not really a factor. AVR circuits are to compensate for minor (not extreme) anomalies, both high voltage and low voltage events.

The Hold-up time, as required by the ATX Form Factor standard, indicates the length of time a power supply maintains required output voltages, only after input voltage drops below specified thresholds (90VAC for 115VAC nominal and 180VAC for 230VAC nominal), as specified here.

So "IF" for example, you are in the US and your mains drops to 95VAC, the power supply's hold-up time is not a factor because the supply is still required to supply normal output, even with a 95VAC input. The AVR circuits of a connected UPS, however, may "boost" the voltage back up, closer to 115VAC, with the PSU oblivious to any power anomaly, and without the UPS kicking over to battery.

"IF" the input voltage suddenly drops to 85VAC, then hold-up time would come into play - until the connected UPS flips to battery.

Hold-up has nothing to do with abnormal high-voltage events like surges and spikes.

 

[AsRock]

The OP explicitly and repeatedly stated he wants to play games for a "would be nice" 30 minute runtime goal. And that is certainly accomplishable with a consumer-grade UPS, though at a higher price point than his first candidate.


Ah, the appeal-to-authority fallacy gets trotted out. You're still wrong. You repeatedly confused power and energy terminology, and even answered the OP's original question with this wing-dinger:

"I recommend going bigger if the budget allows. 1500VA will support your computer, monitor, and your network gear for at least 20 minutes. "

Did you forget that one?

A computer as in like what ?,. totally depends on the computer in question more so if your gaming.

The OP explicitly and repeatedly stated he wants to play games for a "would be nice" 30 minute runtime goal. And that is certainly accomplishable with a consumer-grade UPS, though at a higher price point than his first candidate.


Ah, the appeal-to-authority fallacy gets trotted out. You're still wrong. You repeatedly confused power and energy terminology, and even answered the OP's original question with this wing-dinger:

"I recommend going bigger if the budget allows. 1500VA will support your computer, monitor, and your network gear for at least 20 minutes. "

Did you forget that one?

Again would need the PC specs to even know ( maybe i missed him saying what ), for example i have a game minimized right now so the GPU usage is only 85w in total there is 250w draw which gives me 29 minutes.

And thats on a Cyberpower 1500VA 900w.

 

[Waldorf]

@AsRock
no need to know any of it.
from exceptions, no psu will provide more than its rating, so as long as i calculate correct maximum consumption, its enough.

ignoring most games only put load on the gpu, i can easily have much higher (total) non gaming load, say video encoding, that uses cpu&gpu.

 

[Shrek]

The AVR circuits of a connected UPS, however, may "boost" the voltage back up, closer to 115VAC, with the PSU oblivious to any power anomaly, and without the UPS kicking over to battery.

For that to happen a relay moves things to differing windings and that involves a delay at which point the mains has changed voltage and so there is a glitch.

AVR is good, I'm just trying to understand it better.

 

[Bill_Bright]

For that to happen a relay moves things to differing windings and that involves a delay at which point the mains has changed voltage and so there is a glitch.

You are still jumping to unwarranted conclusions. You need to let it go, Shrek - unless you are going out and buying the cheapest, no-name, generic, fire-hazard UPS you can find and plan on using it to protect the cheapest, no-name, generic, fire-hazard power supply you can find. Then you need to worry about your computers. Is that the case? I doubt it.

Nobody is suggesting anyone buy cheap (as in low cost, poor quality) UPS. Just like computer power supplies, we should "invest" in a "good" UPS with AVR if you are serious about protecting your expensive hardware and perhaps more importantly, your data. That does not mean we need to spend $400+ for a 1500VA UPS. But it does not mean $50 either.

But to your point, so what if it takes time to switch windings (either mechanically or through intelligent circuitry? I sure don't care. Why? Because a delay does NOT mean there's a "glitch". We're not talking 10 seconds, or even 1 second, or even 1/10 of 1 second.

AVR is good, I'm just trying to understand it better.

That's fine but you are fixating over a very small, remote, extremely rare possibility.

I personally have been working with these SOHO sized UPS with AVR for over 35 years now. And I have never encountered an issue where the AVR feature did anything but provide good, clean, regulated and stable power to the connected devices. And supporting critical IS/IT systems hardware has been my full time career this whole time. That is, it is how I've made my living and supported my family.

And that's been in dozens of DoD and State Department facilities in US states from Arizona to NJ, Florida to Idaho. As well as a couple dozen more in Portugal (the Azores), Germany and the UK (and few more that shall remain unnamed. That means literally 100s of different UPS from APC, CyberPower, Tripp Lite, Eaton and others.

That does not mean it can't happen. But it sure means it must be rare.

Have there been UPS failures. Sure. Nothing last forever. But typically if an UPS fails, it is because the batteries died. And twice in 35 years, Mother Nature decided to toss a lightning bolt right at us. No UPS can survive her determined wrath.

So seriously, Shrek. IMO, there is a greater risk of a manufacturing defect than any sort of relay issue you are obsessing over - assuming a properly sized, "good" UPS with AVR from a reputable company and not some budget, no-name generic.

What's the alternative? Plugging directly your computer and other sensitive electronics into the wall outlet? Using a surge and spike protector that does absolutely nothing for low-voltage anomalies and (if lucky) simply kills power with extreme high-voltage anomalies? No thanks.

 

[Shrek]

You need to let it go

Hard to let learning go.

 

[de.das.dude]

Generally speaking, as far as my limited understanding goes, there's some good takes all around. No idea why OP decided to jump into the argument though.

Seems OP made his choice though. Hopefully, it was a good one.

narrator voice: it wasnt a good one.

i am returning it. The batteries in it are already toast and cant hold a charge. Waiting for amazon to pick it back up for the return, will get the APC 1100W which should be better. Same price.

Or i wont get a UPS. Seems like the electric supply folks are done with doing whatever they were doing. Havent had any issues again